Why do people become atheists?

[Y]

Religious fanatics rather believe in the Bible with their eyes closed.

Atheists rather open their eyes and believe in what they see.

Dear Vamp,
I love to read your comments/opinion and stand up
whatever you believe or think etc...

I think I understand what you mean about close and open eyes....

I was so much alike you before, because I did NOT really
understand Faith and because I did NOT have any Faith
I used to say same thing that I prefer to see first before
I can believe something...

Open eyes mean No Faith.

Close eyes mean Lot of Faith.

Thats why I have changed my views going through
my personal journey.

I am not interested in insult you, but I just want
to make a point that if you prefer to see before believe,
that means you have No Faith.

I just want to share with you... thats all....

 

[Maria]

Cyber, I'm not sure if you understand my saying, what you said is true. The point is about Lazarus and rich man. Lazarus choose God's view and rich man choose his own way and comapring his life with others. See, God didn't send him there, rich choose his way thinking he's better than anyone else. All of us made the choice what it will be, admit, I'm a sinner and ask Christ to save or I'm good enough, and don't need Jesus, or say I just believe Jesus and go to church is sufficience. That's the matter of choice. Yes, like I said, Jesus pointing out about hell and described all kinds of people, as disciples was down, thinking no way we are going to heaven til Jesus said, with God, all thing iis possible. How? Only God's plan for slavation to all mankind. Bec everything we do or try is shorten the achievement, just like it said "all men sinned and missed the mark, but only salvation is thru Jesus alone".

I do understand you. Without Christ in heart as personal Saviour, one could go straight to hell without a second chance. Remember what Jesus said ... that one who wants to gain from this world will lose life after death.... or the other hand He said that one who wants to gain nothin' from this world will gain life after death by believin' in Christ ?

 

[Maria]

I am confuse with ur personal belief. Umm okay I have question for u, u said u believe in God and Jesus not the bible. Ummm so how do u learn about God and Jesus? who taught u about God? People did not know God unless someone told them about God, right?

Exactly ! That's what I've asked her earlier in my post. I want to know the same thing, too.

 

[jazzy]

I think you didn´t read the whole the thread here.

Simple is: I´m an Agnostic, not atheist.

I beleive God and Jesus, not the bible. Sometimes I doubt either God exist or not.

Yes I learn from school and other religion beliefs about God and Jesus. I read the bible stories... I didn´t know about scriptures until JW taught me. I thought the bible is from God´s word until I learn many things from this forum... I realized that the bible is not God´s word but human author.

The reason I create a thread here because I want to find out either I´m an atheist or not.

U don't sound alike agnostic for one u believe in God and Jesus. Nor ur atheist either. I used to be agnostic till He came to me one night and changed my life forever. I can not denied God for He had showed me many things happened in bible. bible is true for one He is the author and He used human beings to write it. I have seen God can do things no one ever can do it. He showed me He died on cross, very painful experience for me to witness His death. I know now He is real and the bible He send the messages thru men to show who God is real. Without a word, we are wandering pointless in life. He has power no human being can do any of things alike create us in first place and universal. He is very clever and hide from us till we ask for Him.

Jws are not agnostic if you follow thier religion? I met many of them, they are very nice and I like them but I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit which they don't believe in.

 

[jazzy]

Exactly ! That's what I've asked her earlier in my post. I want to know the same thing, too.

 

[jazzy]

We could look at it this way.

Religious fanatics rather believe in the Bible with their eyes closed. Atheists rather open their eyes and believe in what they see.

A man is walking and carrying a backpack with him. Suddenly, a gunshot is heard and that man falls down. OMG! He's shot! Everyone rushes to check on him. Wait! He's okay! Apparently, the bullet didn't get to him. It was stopped by a Bible that he had in his backpack! Praise the Lord! God was watching over him! Hooray!

Now, let's look at this from a different point of view. What if this man was carrying a phone book instead of a Bible? The effects would be the same. What would people say then? "Oh, dude... you're lucky! Wow, that phone book caught the bullet for you! Whew!" In other words, he was just lucky... no mention of God's involvement.

So, in this case... people are being realistic. To me, a bullet was stopped by a book... Bible, phone book, any book... that's all that matters to me. I'm not going to start "Praising the Lord" if that particular book was a Bible. It's still a book. In other words, that person was just lucky.

I don't know but I have seen His works among us, so none of us really see it unless He opened up on u and let u see His works. I do not believe in luck.

 

[RedFox]

It is possible to be both an agnostic and a Christian if the word agnostic means one says whatever gods exist or do not exist is unknowable. Somebody could say that and still have faith that there is a god, even if there is no way to know for sure. I know somebody who says that he is an agnostic Christian.

Saying that somebody won't see a god's work in the world until the god opens up to that person and that the god hides from people unless they ask for communication and a relationship with the god does not make sense. If one had to believe in a god to see what the god does and to talk with the god, it could be said that the requirement of believing makes people be biased towards interpreting things and thoughts as actions and communications with the god. The claimed need to believe first automatically produces this bias. The bias can get so strong that it feels and looks real. It acts as a filter to discard other possiblities.

Saying that god is real because things happen that no human could do also does not make sense. It is an agruement from ignorance. It is jumping to saying that a god did those things without ruling out other things. There are plenty of things able to do things no human can do. The Earth, a big ball of inanimate matter, has things like earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes and tornadoes. The former two are powered from the inside and the latter two are powered from the outside with energy from another ball of inanimate matter, the Sun. Those things can do things no human can do.

With people getting better with the doctors not being sure what happened, I'd like to hear from the doctors about if each of those stories really happened. Saying that a god did it is jumping to conclusions. Medical research had not ended and we are still discovering many things we didn't know about before, including how the body repairs itself. Using a god to explain things that nobody can yet explain makes that god a god of the gaps.

I know this for myself because I used to be a believer. Do not say that I never really believed. I had "God exists" echoing around in my head at night and was happy to believe it. I felt holy sometimes in church and felt that the Christian god was really there with us. I think that believers say that all deconverted people never believed in the first place so that they would not fear for the integrity of their faith. They don't want to think about the possibility that if others had deconverted, they could themselves deconvert. They fear losing the emotional comfort regarding what happens after death, the thing they call sin and the social circle. Plenty of times, when somebody deconverts, their church friends try to get them back into the fold. When they are unsuccessful, they say that the person wasn't really saved in the first place, no matter what the person actually believed before. Then they write it off as an issue between the person and the god with and think of the person as hellbound unless they convert "for real." True friends would respect their friends' beliefs as long as the beliefs weren't causing serious damage.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I tend to think of it differently. I don't think of a person being hellbound. If anything, I tend to suspect that there was some kind of traumatic event--be it a bad circumstance in life or outright mistreatment from Christians. Sometimes those who deconvert are people who are in pain. As such I feel empathy and want to repair the hurt if at all possible.

 

[Taylor]

Can I add a few different thoughts to this conversation for the sake of discussion.

In my job, I have seen officers lose faith, as well as gain more faith based on different events. Many in law enforcement see the bad in people, and deal with them daily. After awhile, one begins to lose hope in humanity and lose hope in a higher power (How could God let all of these bad things happen?)

On that same note, because of the loss of hope in humanity, some gain more faith in God. This seems to be more common with those that I meet.

The same can be said for victims of traumatic events (How could God let this happen to me?). Like before, traumatic events give people more hope and faith in God. In fact, many feel that they need God to help them get through the rough times of such trauma. If God wasn't there, they feel they would be lost. The thought of God gives us hope...in the good times and the bad.

With that said, and this is where I don't understand the atheists that I mean (obviously not all atheists feel this way)...so what if somebody wants to believe in God? You have a crack addicted mother of 6 who is at the end of her rope and her children have no chance of living a 'normal' life like the children their age. One day, the mother hits rock bottom and 'sees the light'. She gets herself cleaned up with what she believes is from the help of God and puts the pieces of her family back together. What would it matter if God helped this woman or not? Is it better for this woman to believe in something that has improved her life and those around her, or to wave a sign in her face saying 'There is no God...there is no Hell...do whatever you want because it doesn't matter in the end'.

God gives hope to those who need it most...why try to take that away or convince them otherwise?

 

[web730]

We could look at it this way.

Religious fanatics rather believe in the Bible with their eyes closed. Atheists rather open their eyes and believe in what they see.

How came that your so-called statement stating that the religious fanatics rather believe the Bible with their eyes closed since they haven't read it yet and to see the difference? Makes no sense even if you were speaking illeraterally.

Also that atheists do believe only in what they see are the ones falling with the world ways more easily!

So those atheists are also spirit-bankrupted and owned by the dark side unknowingly. Lucifier laughs at those fools.

 

[Rose Immortal]

So those atheists are also spirit-bankrupted and owned by the dark side unknowingly. Lucifier laughs at those fools.

And by mocking, what are you accomplishing?

Search the book of Proverbs for references to a "mocker".

 

[RedFox]

I tend to think of it differently. I don't think of a person being hellbound. If anything, I tend to suspect that there was some kind of traumatic event--be it a bad circumstance in life or outright mistreatment from Christians. Sometimes those who deconvert are people who are in pain. As such I feel empathy and want to repair the hurt if at all possible.

That is not the only reason people deconvert. Many deconverted for other reasons like those. The page linked to at the beginning of this thread says that its writer deconverted because what religion claimed to offer didn't make sense, so it ended up offering nothing, so there was no reason to believe anymore. The process of deconverting can be painful for those who were strongly religious before, but what starts it is not always something painful.

 

[RedFox]

God gives hope to those who need it most...why try to take that away or convince them otherwise?

I won't try to take away that hope if it brought their life back up. I would be fine with it if they did not force their beliefs onto other people and respected others' views.

 

[Reba]

It is possible to be both an agnostic and a Christian if the word agnostic means one says whatever gods exist or do not exist is unknowable. Somebody could say that and still have faith that there is a god, even if there is no way to know for sure. I know somebody who says that he is an agnostic Christian.

How can someone be a real agnostic and a real Christian at the same time? If a sinner truly repents and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior, that is a permanent change. That person's eternal life from that moment on belongs to Jesus, and He won't let go. A person can't undo salvation.

I know this for myself because I used to be a believer. Do not say that I never really believed. I had "God exists" echoing around in my head at night and was happy to believe it.

Just believing that God exists is not the same as being a Christian. Even Satan believes that God exists, but Satan is not a Christian. Many people believe that God exists but they don't all accept Jesus as their person Savior.

I felt holy sometimes in church and felt that the Christian god was really there with us.

Salvation is not a "feeling". Salvation is a once-in-a-lifetime experience that lasts forever. If we depend on our "feelings" of holiness, then we can be deceived. Feelings can be influenced by outside forces, or even bad nutrition; feelings are not dependable. God tells us NOT to depend on feelings but to depend on His promises.

I think that believers say that all deconverted people never believed in the first place so that they would not fear for the integrity of their faith.

I don't fear the integrity of my faith because my faith depends on Jesus Christ; my faith doesn't depend on me.

They don't want to think about the possibility that if others had deconverted, they could themselves deconvert.

I couldn't "deconvert" even if I wanted to. Jesus owns me, and He won't let loose.

True friends would respect their friends' beliefs as long as the beliefs weren't causing serious damage.

What beliefs would those be?

 

[RedFox]

How came that your so-called statement stating that the religious fanatics rather believe the Bible with their eyes closed since they haven't read it yet and to see the difference? Makes no sense even if you were speaking illeraterally.

What was meant by that is that the believers apply only the bible to the world and live by what the bible says, at least by the parts they consider in effect on them. They are not willing to consider other things such as bare reality as see by oneself with no religious filters.

Also that atheists do believe only in what they see are the ones falling with the world ways more easily!

So those atheists are also spirit-bankrupted and owned by the dark side unknowingly. Lucifier laughs at those fools.

There are plenty of example of worldly Christians. Look at how worldly those televangelists are. They ask Christians for donations on TV and end up with 30 homes around the country, a private jet and expensive cars.

Not all atheists are nonspiritial. There are atheists who are Buddhists, Taoists, liberal Quakers, Unitarian Universalists and Jews.

Saying that they are owned by the dark side and that Satan laughs at them are positive claims that implies the existence of the dark side and Satan. You have not provided evidence for those things. Giving bible verses would only raise the question of how to differentiate between the verses meaning that Satan is real and those verses being written by people who believed in such things with those things not being real. That's why evidence independent of the bible is necessary.

People also say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Where is the extraordinary evidence?

Do not think that atheists are sad and depressed all the time. Christians believe in an afterlife that is wonderful and full of glory. Plenty think that it is only for people who think the same way they do. They expect to have all of eternity to enjoy what turns out to be a too-convenient match to what they think is wonderful. Such a place does not look probable.

But when you don't believe in an afterlife, this life gains a lot more value. Everything that is nice and beautiful becomes more valuable because you get only so many times to see and experience such things before you die, with it being probable that it would be forever.

 

[Reba]

...Not all atheists are nonspiritial. There are atheists who are Buddhists, Taoists, liberal Quakers, Unitarian Universalists and Jews....

I someone believes in God or any gods, that person, by definition, is NOT an atheist.

 

[RedFox]

How can someone be a real agnostic and a real Christian at the same time? If a sinner truly repents and accepts Jesus Christ as Savior, that is a permanent change. That person's eternal life from that moment on belongs to Jesus, and He won't let go. A person can't undo salvation.

Being a Christian means accepting Jesus as the savior. Being an agnostic to something means saying that one cannot know for sure if that thing is real or not. An agnostic Christian says that one cannot know for sure if Jesus is real, but has faith in Jesus anyway. This is a page by somebody I consider to be the model agnostic Christian. Look at the November 20th entry.

Just believing that God exists is not the same as being a Christian. Even Satan believes that God exists, but Satan is not a Christian. Many people believe that God exists but they don't all accept Jesus as their person Savior.

I believed that Jesus was as real as God when I was a believer.

Salvation is not a "feeling". Salvation is a once-in-a-lifetime experience that lasts forever. If we depend on our "feelings" of holiness, then we can be deceived. Feelings can be influenced by outside forces, or even bad nutrition; feelings are not dependable. God tells us NOT to depend on feelings but to depend on His promises.

I got saved about five years ago. It did not depend on my feelings that night. I also saw Christians talk about feeling different and better after being saved.

I don't fear the integrity of my faith because my faith depends on Jesus Christ; my faith doesn't depend on me.

Yeah, the way I would say is that Christians' faith depends on how much control the Christian memeplex has over them.

I couldn't "deconvert" even if I wanted to. Jesus owns me, and He won't let loose.

When I was a Christian, I thought I would be one for the rest of my life. The thought of deconverting never occured to me even when reading about things like the possiblity of dogs having eaten Jesus' body. The Christian memeplex tells believers that they would always be Chrisitans. It wasn't until I looked at the bigger picture, beyond the memeplex, that I deconverted. The memeplex would happily tell believers that there is no bigger picture.

What beliefs would those be?

Those beliefs could be any beliefs, religious or not. As long as those are not causing damage such as those of the Heaven's Gate cult, suicide bombers, Crusaders and witch burners or being forced onto others, they will be respected.

 

[Reba]

John 10:
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

If a person is truly saved, no one, not even the person himself/herself, can "unsave" that person.

Saved people can become backslidden or carnal. They can also have doubts and "feel" unsaved. But they cannot become unsaved.

 

[Reba]

... An agnostic Christian says that one cannot know for sure if Jesus is real, but has faith in Jesus anyway. ...

I John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[RedFox]

I John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I suppose that the agnostic Christian I know would say that the word know in that verse would mean he would have faith in those things, but not have knowledge in a material way in the same way we know where things are by looking at them. I'll have to ask him, or maybe you could ask him. He's the same one as the one who wrote that page I linked to.