What is a pro-life?

How do you really know that for fact? during the 4th week, that's when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart beat and other organs begin to form. A beating heart is life.

At the end of the first month of gestation, an embryo measures approximately 1/2" in length, and weighs less than 1/13 of an ounce. It has the beginnings of an organ system, not complete organs. The heart is not beating independently.

Nor is a beating heart considered to be life. A heart cannot beat without a functioning brain stem.

Many societies, and some religions consider "quickening" to be the beginning of human life, and "quickening" does not occur until the 4th month of gestation.

And I know all of the above as fact because medical science has shown it to be factual.

Exactly what experience do you believe an embryo weighing less than 1/13 of an ounce, and less than 1/2 long has had? Especially without a fully developed brain. Experience is dependent upon cognition.

BTW, I'm not arguing. I'm just curious about your belief.
 
Ok, You want to talk about a brain not yet being fully development. Why do you think there are researchers have stated that teens who makes poor judgment is based on their brains that are still growing? When a baby is born in the world their brains are growing and changing, they do not have the same brains as adults, not even teens.

Just because an unborn baby begin to form it's organs, it does not consider a unborn to be any less alive.

Take Christopher Reeve as an example, he had a spinal cord injury, and could not breathe without a ventilator (sp?) Did we viewed him to be any less alive than those people who breathe on their own?

Now that's my belief.
 
Ok, You want to talk about a brain not yet being fully development. Why do you think there are researchers have stated that teens who makes poor judgment is based on their brains that are still growing? When a baby is born in the world their brains are growing and changing, they do not have the same brains as adults, not even teens.

Just because an unborn baby begin to form it's organs, it does not consider a unborn to be any less alive.

Take Christopher Reeve as an example, he had a spinal cord injury, and could not breathe without a ventilator (sp?) Did we viewed him to be any less alive than those people who breathe on their own?

Now that's my belief.

Okay, Cheri, let me break this down for you with a very real life example.

On the week-ends, I work for the coalition against domestic violence. Not only do I deal with abused women and children, I am also the crisis intervention responder for any and all rape victims that are in the emergency room of our hospital.

Early this Sunday morning, at approximately 3:10 a.m., I received a page from the hospital. I went to the ER, knowing that the page meant there was a rape victim. This is what I found when I arrived:

A 14 year old girl who had been held down by 3 other girls that she considered to be her friends while an 18 year old male raped her. She was cowered in the corner of the room, crying hysterically. It took me over 2 hours to get her calm enough for the sexual assault nurse examiner to do a rape kit.

I stayed with this child during the exam. I can tell you that she not only had external bruises and abrasions from being held down by her arms and legs, she also had extensive internal injuries.

This child was a virgin. She was not using birth control, nor did her rapist use a condom. She had, however, begun to menstruate, and therefore, she had the risk of having become pregnant during this violent assault.

Are you telling me that this 14 year old child, who has endured this sort of violent attack, should she have conceived a child during this violence, be forced to endure even greater trauma by being told that she cannot have an abortion, but MUST carry the product of this attack to term, endure 9 months of pregnancy, God knows how many hours of labor, and subsequently, give birth? Are you telling me that she not only has had to go through an experience that will change her life forever, and not for the better, an experience where she was denied her choice not to engage in sexual contact, and then be labled a murderer if she chose to take the morning after pill that will result in expulsion of the product of conception? Are you telling me that she is to be denied that choice?

If you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.

This child did not consent to sex. She bears no responsibility for the actions of this violent man and her sociopathic "friends".

This child has to return to school, and see the girls that held her down every day. The mother told me when the child was finally able to get to her cell phone and call her mother, the mother could hear the other girls in the background taunting and teasing her as she cried hysterically. Do you propose that she also be subjected to the tauting and teasing she would be forced to endure if whe were to return to school pregnant?

On Sunday afternoon, I received another page at around 4:00pm. Back to the ER I went. This time it was a 16 year old girl who had been raped by a person she knew by name. He drug her under a bridge and raped her. What about her? Should she also be forced to carry a pregnancy that resulted from her attack to term?

This is reality, Cheri. These are but the two most recent situations I have dealt with.

To say that these children should have to carry a pregnancy to term, that they should not be given a choice in the matter, is nothing short of inhuman.

Do I value life? Hell, yes. I value the life of that 14 year old girl that experienced more violence in a short period of time than most of us will experience in a lifetime. I value the life of a 16 year old who was drug under a bridge and forced to engage in sexual intercourse. They have already lost their innocence, and I will be damned if I tell them that they must loose any more of their young lives by being forced to carry a pregnancy for 9 months. A pregnancy that they are in no way responsible for. Will I fight for their right to choose? You can bet your ass I will.
 
Take one quick post..

I ve only 15min left to return to work.

I noticed some posts began to debate about prolife vs prochoice.

This is not prochoice vs prolife. Please stay on topic for "what is a pro-life". Its only about prolife debate.

Now enjoy the debate! =)

I g2g now.
 
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Take one quick post..

I ve only 15min left to return to work.

I noticed some posts began to debate about prolife vs prochoice.

This is not prochoice vs prolife. Please stay on topic for "what is a pro-life". Its only about prolife debate.

Now enjoy the debate! =)

I g2g now.

My post was in regard to pro-life. Pro the life of the two teenage girls I tended to this weekend.
 
If we never judged anyone then no one would ever go to jail.

We have to judge actions; we can't judge hearts.

That's what 'Seperation of church and state' is for.
Obvious crimes, etc.
Let the state handle it.
We are not reffering to crimes........reffering to 'behaviors not deemed criminal.
Abortion not a crime....and yet you judge. Get it?
 
On the week-ends, I work for the coalition against domestic violence. Not only do I deal with abused women and children, I am also the crisis intervention responder for any and all rape victims that are in the emergency room of our hospital.
That must be very stressful and painful. You are to be much commended for taking on that heart-breaking task. It's so sad that we live in a society that requires such services. Thank you for being there for the girls and women.
Early this Sunday morning, at approximately 3:10 a.m., I received a page from the hospital. I went to the ER, knowing that the page meant there was a rape victim. This is what I found when I arrived:

A 14 year old girl who had been held down by 3 other girls that she considered to be her friends while an 18 year old male raped her. She was cowered in the corner of the room, crying hysterically. It took me over 2 hours to get her calm enough for the sexual assault nurse examiner to do a rape kit.

I stayed with this child during the exam. I can tell you that she not only had external bruises and abrasions from being held down by her arms and legs, she also had extensive internal injuries.

This child was a virgin. She was not using birth control, nor did her rapist use a condom. She had, however, begun to menstruate, and therefore, she had the risk of having become pregnant during this violent assault.

Are you telling me that this 14 year old child, who has endured this sort of violent attack, should she have conceived a child during this violence, be forced to endure even greater trauma by being told that she cannot have an abortion, but MUST carry the product of this attack to term, endure 9 months of pregnancy, God knows how many hours of labor, and subsequently, give birth? Are you telling me that she not only has had to go through an experience that will change her life forever, and not for the better, an experience where she was denied her choice not to engage in sexual contact, and then be labled a murderer if she chose to take the morning after pill that will result in expulsion of the product of conception? Are you telling me that she is to be denied that choice?
Are you telling me that an abortion will remove the trauma of that vicious attack? Hasn't she experienced enough violation to her body? How do you know that's the best "solution"?


f you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.
Do you think that Cheri means that the poor girl should be berated? No. She should be counseled, comforted, and supported thru her pain. She shouldn't be made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She shouldn't feel any guilt for what happened to her. By encouraging her to sweep away all traces of that horrible attack, she is made to feel that everything about her is filthy and disgusting. That's the last thing she needs to feel.


This child did not consent to sex. She bears no responsibility for the actions of this violent man and her sociopathic "friends".
Of course not.


This child has to return to school, and see the girls that held her down every day.
Why? Why aren't those girls expelled from school? They should be legally restrained from having contact with her.


... Do you propose that she also be subjected to the tauting and teasing she would be forced to endure if whe were to return to school pregnant?
IF she became pregnant, why would she be forced to attend school with those girls? First of all, punish those girls. Secondly, the girl should be allowed to get home tutoring during a pregnancy, if she is indeed pregnant.

So, if she gets an abortion, attending school with her taunters will be acceptable and more bearable? That doesn't make any sense.


On Sunday afternoon, I received another page at around 4:00pm. Back to the ER I went. This time it was a 16 year old girl who had been raped by a person she knew by name. He drug her under a bridge and raped her. What about her? Should she also be forced to carry a pregnancy that resulted from her attack to term?
Is she pregnant? Did she say a pregnancy would be more devastating to her than an abortion?

Does an abortion make the horror and pain of a rape go away?


Do I value life? Hell, yes. I value the life of that 14 year old girl that experienced more violence in a short period of time than most of us will experience in a lifetime. I value the life of a 16 year old who was drug under a bridge and forced to engage in sexual intercourse. They have already lost their innocence, and I will be damned if I tell them that they must loose any more of their young lives by being forced to carry a pregnancy for 9 months.
Is that what you would say? If you phrase it that way, in such a negative, critical way, then what do you expect the girl to feel?


A pregnancy that they are in no way responsible for. Will I fight for their right to choose? You can bet your ass I will.
It almost seems that you are more angry with the "fetus" than you are at the perpetrators. Is it responsible for its conception? No. Just as the girl is an innocent victim, so is the baby. Why compound the sins of the "father" on the innocent? Shouldn't the focus be on helping the poor girl thru this instead of "washing away" what happened as though nothing did happen?

Unless there is a threat to the physical well-being of the girl (which the physician determines) then I wouldn't support abortion as a way of healing her pain because it's not a way of healing.
 
That's what 'Seperation of church and state' is for.
Obvious crimes, etc.
Let the state handle it.
We are not reffering to crimes........reffering to 'behaviors not deemed criminal.
Abortion not a crime....and yet you judge. Get it?
I didn't bring it up; I was only responding to another poster's statement about Jesus and judging.

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - What is a pro-life?

Get it?
 
Right. :thumb:

Cowpuppy-- what is this "holy peeps"? would you like to be called one of the "unholy peeps"?

If I say 'holy peeps' that is not exactly a slanderous label is it.
But your ways is to turn it into slandering me with a bad label of unholiness if I have any argument with you.
Which one of us gave a slanderous label?.....and yet considers themselves 'holier than thou'.
You always fail to see yourselves in the mirror. Slandering others if they don't live your life for you.
You don't need the rest of the world to mimic your behaviors to feel ok with yourselves.
Don't judge me as 'unholy' while you slander others.
Author request post stick to topic of pro-life..........that invvolvess not bringing religion into the topic.
Myself I thinnk these sites are better without the rreligious input...it never ends and everyone gets judged. but religioon keeps working it's way back into sites. Self-righteousness. Stick to the rules or use religion forum.
 
That must be very stressful and painful. You are to be much commended for taking on that heart-breaking task. It's so sad that we live in a society that requires such services. Thank you for being there for the girls and women.
Are you telling me that an abortion will remove the trauma of that vicious attack? Hasn't she experienced enough violation to her body? How do you know that's the best "solution"?

No, I am not saying that an abortion will remove the trauma of that vicious attack. But being forced to carry a pregnancy to term that is the result of such a violent attack certainly will not move her towards healing. Are you telling me that carrying the pregnancy to term would remove the horror of what happened to her?
Do you think that Cheri means that the poor girl should be berated? No. She should be counseled, comforted, and supported thru her pain. She shouldn't be made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She shouldn't feel any guilt for what happened to her. By encouraging her to sweep away all traces of that horrible attack, she is made to feel that everything about her is filthy and disgusting. That's the last thing she needs to feel.

Absolutely, she should be counseled and supported through her pain. And trust me, she has plenty of pain that needs counsel and support without being told that she does not have the choice not to bring a pregnancy to term. Cheri is the one that equated abortion to murder. She is not made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She is given the choice. Something, you feel she should not have. Her choice was taken away when she was raped. Choosing how to deal with it should not, under any circumstances, be taken away from her. We do not reccomend any procedure to the victims. We tell them what their options are, and allow them to make a choice.
Of course not.



Why? Why aren't those girls expelled from school? They should be legally restrained from having contact with her.

They were taken into the custody of the juvenile authorites, and have been released into the custody of their parents pending a court hearing.


IF she became pregnant, why would she be forced to attend school with those girls? First of all, punish those girls. Secondly, the girl should be allowed to get home tutoring during a pregnancy, if she is indeed pregnant.

I did not say she was pregnant. I said, if she became pregnant as the result of her attack. Who would be responsible for paying for her home tutoring? Her parents? Another burden that is heaped on this family as the result of an unwarranted attack on an innocent child.
So, if she gets an abortion, attending school with her taunters will be acceptable and more bearable? That doesn't make any sense.

It will be difficult to attend school with her attackers under any circumstance. But to be visably pregnant will only escalate the situation.


Is she pregnant? Did she say a pregnancy would be more devastating to her than an abortion?

Since this attack only occurred 3 days ago, it is a bit early to know if she were pregnant or not. And to answer your question, she was absolutely terrified that she would be pregnant. She chose to take the morning after pill, which to those who say that life begins at the moment of conception, would be considered to be an abortion. In fact, it has been called, by certain factors, an "abortion pill". It was much less distressing to her than the thought of possibly being pregnant.
Does an abortion make the horror and pain of a rape go away?



Is that what you would say? If you phrase it that way, in such a negative, critical way, then what do you expect the girl to feel?

I made my statement to a forum occupied by adults. I did not make that statement to the victim. I expect this girl to feel a lot of things in the months and years to come. Not the least of which is some degree of self loathing, as do all rape victims. It is my job to concentrate on her and what she needs to get through her situation. She is my primary concern.
It almost seems that you are more angry with the "fetus" than you are at the perpetrators. Is it responsible for its conception? No. Just as the girl is an innocent victim, so is the baby. Why compound the sins of the "father" on the innocent? Shouldn't the focus be on helping the poor girl thru this instead of "washing away" what happened as though nothing did happen?

At this point in time, it would not even be a fetus. Nor would it even be an embryo. It would be an embryonic disk. And frankly, my concern is for the victim, not a couple of cells that united through violence. Of course I am angry with the perpetrators. But it is law enforcements duty to take care of the perpetrators. It is my duty to take care of their victim. And, no way do we wash away what happened. You have no idea what these girls go through in order to deal with what happened. We help them deal with it, and get on to some sort of productive life in spite of it.

Unless there is a threat to the physical well-being of the girl (which the physician determines) then I wouldn't support abortion as a way of healing her pain because it's not a way of healing.

Abortion does not heal her pain. It simply prevents additional pain as the result of the violence she has already endured, if that's what she chooses. And her mental and emotional well being is every bit as important as her physical well being. A child who commits suicide because she is pregnant with her attacker's child is a dead child. That is a decided threat to her physical well being.

I will also add that this child, or any rape victim, must also spend the next year being tested, at periodic intervals for Hep C and HIV, both are which chronic, debilitating, and fatal. Why should she be forced to deal with the issue of unwanted pregnancy if she choosed not to. She has no choice about whether or not she was exposed to a fatal illness, nor whether she was forced into sexual activity. Thank goodness, and Roe v Wade, that she has a choice about how to deal with the issue of pregnancy.
 
That must be very stressful and painful. You are to be much commended for taking on that heart-breaking task. It's so sad that we live in a society that requires such services. Thank you for being there for the girls and women.

Abortion does not heal her pain. It simply prevents additional pain as the result of the violence she has already endured, if that's what she chooses. And her mental and emotional well being is every bit as important as her physical well being. A child who commits suicide because she is pregnant with her attacker's child is a dead child. That is a decided threat to her physical well being.

I will also add that this child, or any rape victim, must also spend the next year being tested, at periodic intervals for Hep C and HIV, both are which chronic, debilitating, and fatal. Why should she be forced to deal with the issue of unwanted pregnancy if she choosed not to. She has no choice about whether or not she was exposed to a fatal illness, nor whether she was forced into sexual activity. Thank goodness, and Roe v Wade, that she has a choice about how to deal with the issue of pregnancy.

I have to agree with everything you have posted and explain, I feel terrible for that child and my heart goes out to her. No child should have to go though so much violance and does not derserve that kind of pain. She will never forget what happen to her it a terrible trauma she suffering from that.
 
Excellent post Reba on #167. :thumb:

How about your reply, Cheri? If life begins at the moment of conception, would you deny this 14 year old child the right to the morning after pill, even considering all that she has been through, and all that she will still have to endure?
 
I have to agree with everything you have posted and explain, I feel terrible for that child and my heart goes out to her. No child should have to go though so much violance and does not derserve that kind of pain. She will never forget what happen to her it a terrible trauma she suffering from that.

Yes, she has already had many choices taken away from her through no fault of her own. It would be heartless to take yet another choice away from her. We should be concerned with giving her back the power over her own body.
 
Yes, she has already had many choices taken away from her through no fault of her own. It would be heartless to take yet another choice away from her. We should be concerned with giving her back the power over her own body.

I have to say that I agree that taking away her choices from her that wrong. She should be able to have a choices to make if she want to have the abortion. I know that so many horror stories of young teenages as young as 13 and up that got pregnant and most of them died giving birth so young. I believe young teenagers should have to carry a pregnancy to term so young that can even kill them. That is way too much of a dangerous risks for young girls that young. Teenagers are not ready to handle such a big responbilities to be a parents. There is a story I remembered back in 1997 a young teenager in Jersey where I grew up. She arrived at the prom in New Jersey last Friday night in a loose-fitting black dress...and made a beeline for the bathroom.... But the girl had apparently told no one - not even her boyfriend - that her loose-fitting dress hid her pregnancy and that in the bathroom she had given birth to a baby boy, wrapped him in a plastic bag and disposed of him in the trash." So pretty much I am concern that any age of teenagers is not ready to handle being a mother. Being raped is also terrible crimes that no young girls or women have to go through this. So I am not against abortion since abortion is there for a reasons.
 
I have to say that I agree that taking away her choices from her that wrong. She should be able to have a choices to make if she want to have the abortion. I know that so many horror stories of young teenages as young as 13 and up that got pregnant and most of them died giving birth so young. I believe young teenagers should have to carry a pregnancy to term so young that can even kill them. That is way too much of a dangerous risks for young girls that young. Teenagers are not ready to handle such a big responbilities to be a parents. There is a story I remembered back in 1997 a young teenager in Jersey where I grew up. She arrived at the prom in New Jersey last Friday night in a loose-fitting black dress...and made a beeline for the bathroom.... But the girl had apparently told no one - not even her boyfriend - that her loose-fitting dress hid her pregnancy and that in the bathroom she had given birth to a baby boy, wrapped him in a plastic bag and disposed of him in the trash." So pretty much I am concern that any age of teenagers is not ready to handle being a mother. Being raped is also terrible crimes that no young girls or women have to go through this. So I am not against abortion since abortion is there for a reasons.

Yes, I remember hearing about that story. How tragic.
 
You should take your own advice, and follow through. :ty:

ha ha nice try......once again trying to put words in other people's mouths.
You can't seriously imply that I cconstantly bring and quote religion here. Only in reply to those who do so.
You guys playing spin.......don't make sense
moving on.....you cease to make sense and debate with integrity in honest manner.
must be so nice to always be right simply by quoting some verse which can be taken many different ways.
good luck
cya
INTEGRITY.....honesty in communications.
 
If a rape victim wants an abortion, I think that is her right to have one. A rape victim doesnt need other people telling her that abortion is wrong and that she has no choice. Her choices were taken away by the rapist so it is her own private business whether she wants an abortion or not, not anyone else's.
 
What if a fetus dies in utereo?
Most conditions where a baby dies in utereo cannot be prevented by improved women's health.
Pro-life? GOOD. Fight for universal birth control, otc morning after pill, better human services, fight for programs that combat poverty etc.
Doesn't the Bible say "Judge ye that ye not be judged?" (and Jesus said that) Don't judge until you've been in someone else's shoes! You don't know what you would do! As a matter of fact, I've heard that some of the pro-life protesters HAVE been seen (for abortions) in clinics.
Say you wanted a new hearing aid or a CI, but someone said that you couldn't get it. It's the same thing.

You miss a few points:
A pro-life person should never ignore women's risk health or their rights no matter what. ( You can't expect us as heartless assholes because you claim we are not care about women but unborn babies. But that's not means we support abortion for her risk health only, instead of with that, we have to fight for improving women's healths).

That's means we, prolifers, support women's healths ( inculded removing a risk health by abortion) while abortion is legal, however, that's not means we have to support abortions. I hope that's clear.

And, CIs are not part of a human organ. I don't know why you brought it up..

Don't judge until you've been in someone else's shoes!

Will you show me where did I judge women? Becaue I knew I really don't.

What if a fetus dies in utereo?

A girl/woman can have an abortion. I don't see it is wrong to have it. It's very understandable.
 
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