What is a pro-life?

[KarissaMann05]

My post was in regard to pro-life. Pro the life of the two teenage girls I tended to this weekend.

Oh, are they pro-lifers? Maybe I'm misunderstood?

 

[KarissaMann05]

Okay, Cheri, let me break this down for you with a very real life example.

On the week-ends, I work for the coalition against domestic violence. Not only do I deal with abused women and children, I am also the crisis intervention responder for any and all rape victims that are in the emergency room of our hospital.

Early this Sunday morning, at approximately 3:10 a.m., I received a page from the hospital. I went to the ER, knowing that the page meant there was a rape victim. This is what I found when I arrived:

A 14 year old girl who had been held down by 3 other girls that she considered to be her friends while an 18 year old male raped her. She was cowered in the corner of the room, crying hysterically. It took me over 2 hours to get her calm enough for the sexual assault nurse examiner to do a rape kit.

I stayed with this child during the exam. I can tell you that she not only had external bruises and abrasions from being held down by her arms and legs, she also had extensive internal injuries.

This child was a virgin. She was not using birth control, nor did her rapist use a condom. She had, however, begun to menstruate, and therefore, she had the risk of having become pregnant during this violent assault.

Are you telling me that this 14 year old child, who has endured this sort of violent attack, should she have conceived a child during this violence, be forced to endure even greater trauma by being told that she cannot have an abortion, but MUST carry the product of this attack to term, endure 9 months of pregnancy, God knows how many hours of labor, and subsequently, give birth? Are you telling me that she not only has had to go through an experience that will change her life forever, and not for the better, an experience where she was denied her choice not to engage in sexual contact, and then be labled a murderer if she chose to take the morning after pill that will result in expulsion of the product of conception? Are you telling me that she is to be denied that choice?

If you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.

This child did not consent to sex. She bears no responsibility for the actions of this violent man and her sociopathic "friends".

This child has to return to school, and see the girls that held her down every day. The mother told me when the child was finally able to get to her cell phone and call her mother, the mother could hear the other girls in the background taunting and teasing her as she cried hysterically. Do you propose that she also be subjected to the tauting and teasing she would be forced to endure if whe were to return to school pregnant?

On Sunday afternoon, I received another page at around 4:00pm. Back to the ER I went. This time it was a 16 year old girl who had been raped by a person she knew by name. He drug her under a bridge and raped her. What about her? Should she also be forced to carry a pregnancy that resulted from her attack to term?

This is reality, Cheri. These are but the two most recent situations I have dealt with.

To say that these children should have to carry a pregnancy to term, that they should not be given a choice in the matter, is nothing short of inhuman.

Do I value life? Hell, yes. I value the life of that 14 year old girl that experienced more violence in a short period of time than most of us will experience in a lifetime. I value the life of a 16 year old who was drug under a bridge and forced to engage in sexual intercourse. They have already lost their innocence, and I will be damned if I tell them that they must loose any more of their young lives by being forced to carry a pregnancy for 9 months. A pregnancy that they are in no way responsible for. Will I fight for their right to choose? You can bet your ass I will.

Wow, that's so sad. I see the same reasons to have an abortion.

Well, I only know this person a little and she was raped and had an abortion, suddently, she regerted her choice and never would forgive herself.

My opinion, to get ruin of rapist's child in order to reduce the pain is not sovled a problem. However, some girls may be lucky to not have a regert for her own abortion. That's great. I will say it is depend on their feelings.

Personally, I never agreed a baby's fault for rape action as if a person ABHORS that child for one same reason.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Yeah, I agreed, Reba. I see the other side on this too.

I can't really tell them what to do and what to not do.
It's not my place to jugde their choices.

however, I am agreed with this: Do you think that Cheri means that the poor girl should be berated? No. She should be counseled, comforted, and supported thru her pain. She shouldn't be made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She shouldn't feel any guilt for what happened to her. By encouraging her to sweep away all traces of that horrible attack, she is made to feel that everything about her is filthy and disgusting. That's the last thing she needs to feel.

Said well.

 

[shel90]

Are you telling me that an abortion will remove the trauma of that vicious attack? Hasn't she experienced enough violation to her body? How do you know that's the best "solution"?



Quote:
f you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.

Do you think that Cheri means that the poor girl should be berated? No. She should be counseled, comforted, and supported thru her pain. She shouldn't be made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She shouldn't feel any guilt for what happened to her. By encouraging her to sweep away all traces of that horrible attack, she is made to feel that everything about her is filthy and disgusting. That's the last thing she needs to feel.



Quote:

I dont think anyone is saying that the rape victim should get an abortion. I think the whole point is that the rape victim should have the choice of whether to get an abortion or not.

I agree that the rape victim shouldnt feel the burden to either choices...shouldnt feel the burden of having to carry the pregnancy to full term simply because other people think abortion is wrong or shouldnt have to feel the burden of having an abortion.

 

[jillio]

Are you telling me that an abortion will remove the trauma of that vicious attack? Hasn't she experienced enough violation to her body? How do you know that's the best "solution"?



Quote:
f you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.

Do you think that Cheri means that the poor girl should be berated? No. She should be counseled, comforted, and supported thru her pain. She shouldn't be made to feel the double burden of taking an innocent life. She shouldn't feel any guilt for what happened to her. By encouraging her to sweep away all traces of that horrible attack, she is made to feel that everything about her is filthy and disgusting. That's the last thing she needs to feel.



Quote:

I dont think anyone is saying that the rape victim should get an abortion. I think the whole point is that the rape victim should have the choice of whether to get an abortion or not.

I agree that the rape victim shouldnt feel the burden to either choices...shouldnt feel the burden of having to carry the pregnancy to full term simply because other people think abortion is wrong or shouldnt have to feel the burden of having an abortion.

Exactly. The victim should have the right to choose. And the rapist has already done a good job of making her feel filthy and disgusting. Trust me. I walk victims through these feelings all the time. It is a normal reaction to a rape. Why should we compound what has already been forced on her by refusing to give her the power over her own body and her own existence to make the choice that she can live with? To force an unwilling victim to carry a pregnancy to term that they don't want to endure simply rapes them all over again.

Its easy to stand back and say that this child, or any victim, should not choose abortion. It is much more difficult to sit with them in the ER, see what they are going through, and then tell them that they do not have that right to choose. No one, no one, could have sat with that child this week end and still believe that the right thing to do would have been to withold the morning after pill from her. No one can sit in session after session with a rape victim as they work through the complicted emotions and the profound impact it has on every aspect of their life, and then tell them that they must submit to another violation of their body by being forced to carry a pregnancy that will remind them, day in and day out, of how that pregnancy came to be. And particularly not when we are talking about a 14 year old child.

If you believe so strongly (not you specifically, lol) that life begins at conception, then if you are raped, you are free to choose not to take the morning after pill, and if you have conceived, to carry that pregnancy to term. I wonder how many, in the case of a brutal attack, would be so firm in their beliefs. Not many.

 

[Cowpuppy]

The rape victims did not choose the responsibility. They are not responsible to please anyone. Someone wants to sit behind a typewriter and pass judgement of responsibility onto others. A responsibility a victim did not choose.
Sit behind that typewriter next to that book and tell that victim she has to raise the child born of the perpetrator who humiliated her.
bunk......high and holy....'holier than thou'
walk in her shoes....it has nothing to do with you.

 

[shel90]

Exactly. The victim should have the right to choose. And the rapist has already done a good job of making her feel filthy and disgusting. Trust me. I walk victims through these feelings all the time. It is a normal reaction to a rape. Why should we compound what has already been forced on her by refusing to give her the power over her own body and her own existence to make the choice that she can live with? To force an unwilling victim to carry a pregnancy to term that they don't want to endure simply rapes them all over again.

Its easy to stand back and say that this child, or any victim, should not choose abortion. It is much more difficult to sit with them in the ER, see what they are going through, and then tell them that they do not have that right to choose. No one, no one, could have sat with that child this week end and still believe that the right thing to do would have been to withold the morning after pill from her. No one can sit in session after session with a rape victim as they work through the complicted emotions and the profound impact it has on every aspect of their life, and then tell them that they must submit to another violation of their body by being forced to carry a pregnancy that will remind them, day in and day out, of how that pregnancy came to be. And particularly not when we are talking about a 14 year old child.

If you believe so strongly (not you specifically, lol) that life begins at conception, then if you are raped, you are free to choose not to take the morning after pill, and if you have conceived, to carry that pregnancy to term. I wonder how many, in the case of a brutal attack, would be so firm in their beliefs. Not many.

I wouldnt know cuz I have never worked with rape victims nor I personally know of anyone who has been raped or at least not to my knowledge. All I know is that if I get raped, I would want to have that power to make that decision for myself. I dont think I would appreciate having people telling me I should or shouldnt do this if I get pregnant by the rape. I would rather be the one who makes the decision of what to do with the pregnancy myself. I know that I would want everyone's love and support without anyone judging me which could make me feel worse about myself. No thanks.

 

[shel90]

The rape victims did not choose the responsibility. They are not responsible to please anyone. Someone wants to sit behind a typewriter and pass judgement of responsibility onto others. A responsibility a victim did not choose.
Sit behind that typewriter next to that book and tell that victim she has to raise the child born of the perpetrator who humiliated her.
bunk......high and holy....'holier than thou'
walk in her shoes....it has nothing to do with you.

Exactly...the rape victims shouldnt be worrying about pleasing other people or trying to meet other people's views to make them happy.

 

[KarissaMann05]

The rape victims did not choose the responsibility. They are not responsible to please anyone. Someone wants to sit behind a typewriter and pass judgement of responsibility onto others. A responsibility a victim did not choose.
Sit behind that typewriter next to that book and tell that victim she has to raise the child born of the perpetrator who humiliated her.
bunk......high and holy....'holier than thou'
walk in her shoes....it has nothing to do with you.

Sighs. Are you still accusing us, Christians, aren't you?

I'd rather to no religion comments here. ... for now.

Jillio and Shel, good post.

EDIT:

the rape victims shouldnt be worrying about pleasing other people or trying to meet other people's views to make them happy.

Agreed. I always keep myself down when someone is pregnant unless she needs an answer for her question, I'd rather to give her netural optional and three choice informations (abort adopt parent) she may need it. It's not my place to tell to do so.

 

[jillio]

I wouldnt know cuz I have never worked with rape victims nor I personally know of anyone who has been raped or at least not to my knowledge. All I know is that if I get raped, I would want to have that power to make that decision for myself. I dont think I would appreciate having people telling me I should or shouldnt do this if I get pregnant by the rape. I would rather be the one who makes the decision of what to do with the pregnancy myself. I know that I would want everyone's love and support without anyone judging me which could make me feel worse about myself. No thanks.

Exactly. And it should be your choice. And the fact of the matter is, the victim never even knows if they were pregnant or not. They are offered the morning after pill once the rape kit has been completed. They are not forced to take it, they are simply offered the option. By taking it, the victim does not have to worry about the possibility any longer. They have enough to worry about as it is. But those who insist that life begins at the moment of conception are saying that the morning after pill is a form of abortion and should not be used. But like I said, it's easy to stand back and say what a victim should or shouldn't do when you have never been in that position. Life is not always black and white.

 

[Cheri]

How about your reply, Cheri?

Well excuse me for having a life, when my two boys need their mother, I need more time to reply to your post, and I did not have the time, so please learn to have some patiences.

Are you telling me that this 14 year old child, who has endured this sort of violent attack, should she have conceived a child during this violence, be forced to endure even greater trauma by being told that she cannot have an abortion

I would not tell her she cannot have an abortion, nor I would not even tell her she could get an abortion either. I can understand that raped can be a devastating and traumatic.If an abortion is the answer to her solution, it will not bury the pain that she went through no matter how hard she tried.

If you believe that all abortion is wrong because life begins at the moment of conception, then you would tell this child that she had killed a child by choosing not to carry the pregnancy to term.

You really think I would tell her that after she been raped against her own will? I'm not that cold-heart. I'll only offer my help and support to get her counseling, support groups, professional therapists and healing services.

Are you telling me that this 14 year old child, who has endured this sort of violent attack, should she have conceived a child during this violence, be forced to endure even greater trauma by being told that she cannot have an abortion, but MUST carry the product of this attack to term, endure 9 months of pregnancy, God knows how many hours of labor, and subsequently, give birth? Are you telling me that she not only has had to go through an experience that will change her life forever, and not for the better, an experience where she was denied her choice not to engage in sexual contact, and then be labled a murderer if she chose to take the morning after pill that will result in expulsion of the product of conception? Are you telling me that she is to be denied that choice?

I never stated that she is to be denied that choice, from the looks of it, it seems that you're taking the whole blame on the fetus and not the rapist, I don't understand why the unborn has to be punished because the sperm donor was a rapist. You don't believe in the death penalty system so you rather to save the life of the rapist and kill the unborn child who is no way been guilty of any wrong doing, so why should an unborn be punished, and not the rapist? Is this how it should played out? the rapist gets let's say maybe only 15 years in prison and the unborn baby gets death.

 

[KarissaMann05]

For pro-lifers who don't fit the stereotype, for myself, I am temporarily resigned to choice; I don't think that pursuing a ban on abortion right now is the best way to end abortion. I prefer to focus on reducing the demand for abortion and persuading people of the humanity of the unborn child and the injustice of killing him/her. I want to build a social consensus that abortion is a poor option for women and is the unjust killing of human beings, and then I want to pass laws based on that social consensus. I think those laws have a lot better chance of lasting and actually being followed. But because I don't want to try to pass a ban right now, does that make me pro-choice? It seems a bit silly to say so.

At that point, it isn't pro-life to bomb places where abortions are performed.

As this a such question, so why is it so terrible for a pro-lifer to tell a pregnant woman who doesn't want a child that she should have just not have sex, but pro-choicers don't think twice about throwing the same unhelpful judgment at an unwilling father? Why should "tough, you have to deal with it now" instead of actual help be seen as legitimate "advice" from either side?

If the double standard of women being able to choose to be parents or not but men not having their choice is justified, as I've heard claimed, by the fact that women tend to do a disproportionate amount of actually taking care of the child, why is the solution that women should be able to remove the father of their child from the decision of whether or not to kill it, rather than trying to get fathers to take responsibility for their children? Are we so invested in the idea of female freedom and independence that we are afraid to admit that raising a child is not an easy task, and to think that killing our children is better than having the humility to admit that we can't do it on our own? Logical?

I really don't understand the (word removed) justification of abortion with "but it's just a clump of cells! If abortion is murder, that means haircuts/washing off skin cells/circumcision is murder too!" Sorry, but if you leave your hair alone for nine months and it turns into a baby, you've got bigger problems than needing a haircut.
Well, legally killing a sleeping person is murder, but since there is no conscious mind present, the dead person isn't logically a victim. This opens all kinds of wonderful things. We could save the world from poverty by killing poor people in their sleep, and if any of the surviving family is upset about that, wait till they are sleeping and "fix" them too. End world hunger, disease, crime, and every other human issue on the planet! How evil to oppose such a noble cause because of concern over clumps of cells! Pro-life just means pro-suffer, right?

And aren't we all part of something? One is part of a family, a company, a society. So if being part of something means one is not an individual, then there are no individuals. Therefore there are no persons. Therefore why even wait till we are asleep to take care of world problems? So yeah, I agree, it is not easy to connect with the clump of cells or part-of arguments because we know that life itself is valuable and individuality exists even when we depend on each other.

Those people fail to realize that is what word has meaning, "life", to label your a certain way. Those anti-abortionists who bomb clinics, anti-abortion politicians who enforce on the death penalty, and whatever they who have done so wrong, in fact, they are NOT truly pro-life. They never will be, and to do much more harm than good to our nature. That's why we, non-traditional and liberal pro-lifers, are here to end this messy things that so-called pro-lifers had caused. Only if you follow a different way, it will make a right thing to change Pro-Life movement much better.

Unforunately, the wikipedia, google, answer.com, and other searching tools have not add a new definition for this group (non-traditional pro-lifers), which is why many new pro-lifers are unfairly dismissed as pro-choicers for same illogical reasons.

Besides, they are insisted by pro-choicers or/and "pro-lifers" group in order to force them to be pro-choicers. Because what a 'definition', in any book or internet, said so. They never bothered to add this new group some years ago and, now they never do it.

Copying their quotes from some links that I post it here.

I strongly agreed with them and only a few things I disagreed.
I know many ADers will disagree with this, but I only found it's very good point and interesting, anyway.

Peace

 

[KarissaMann05]

Well excuse me for having a life, when my two boys need their mother, I need more time to reply to your post, and I did not have the time, so please learn to have some patiences.

I would not tell her she cannot have an abortion, nor I would not even tell her she could get an abortion either. I can understand that raped can be a devastating and traumatic.If an abortion is the answer to her solution, it will not bury the pain that she went through no matter how hard she tried.

You really think I would tell her that after she been raped against her own will? I'm not that cold-heart. I'll only offer my help and support to get her counseling, support groups, professional therapists and healing services.

I never stated that she is to be denied that choice, from the looks of it, it seems that you're taking the whole blame on the fetus and not the rapist, I don't understand why the unborn has to be punished because the sperm donor was a rapist. You don't believe in the death penalty system so you rather to save the life of the rapist and kill the unborn child who is no way been guilty of any wrong doing, so why should an unborn be punished, and not the rapist? Is this how it should played out? the rapist gets let's say maybe only 15 years in prison and the unborn baby gets death.

Agreed. I see the same thing. I just hate when they thought I will force women or I act like I am a "careless bitch" enough to jugde them. Ugh.

Whenever it happen, she needs a help, love, and support with all care.

 

[Cheri]

Whenever it happen, she needs a help, love, and support with all care.

Agreed.

 

[jillio]

Well excuse me for having a life, when my two boys need their mother, I need more time to reply to your post, and I did not have the time, so please learn to have some patiences.

I would not tell her she cannot have an abortion, nor I would not even tell her she could get an abortion either. I can understand that raped can be a devastating and traumatic.If an abortion is the answer to her solution, it will not bury the pain that she went through no matter how hard she tried.

If you aren't going to tell her what her options are, what is it you would tell her? And, if you will check my previous reply to Reba, then intent of offering her the morning after pill is not to rid her of the pain from the rape. Nothing will make that go away. The intent is to prevent her being raped all over again by being forced to carry a pregnancy to term that she in no way is responsible for.
You really think I would tell her that after she been raped against her own will? I'm not that cold-heart. I'll only offer my help and support to get her counseling, support groups, professional therapists and healing services.

She is already getting all of those services. That is why we respond immediately as crisis intervention responders when the victim is still in the hospital. Assistance is immediate and ongoing. And part of the counseling process is to inform her of all of her choices, and empower her to make those choices for herself.

I never stated that she is to be denied that choice, from the looks of it, it seems that you're taking the whole blame on the fetus and not the rapist, I don't understand why the unborn has to be punished because the sperm donor was a rapist. You don't believe in the death penalty system so you rather to save the life of the rapist and kill the unborn child who is no way been guilty of any wrong doing, so why should an unborn be punished, and not the rapist? Is this how it should played out? the rapist gets let's say maybe only 15 years in prison and the unborn baby gets death.

You stated that the product of conception fromt he very beginning is a life, and that an abortion is killing. And, once again, you need to check my response to Reba. First of all, it is not a fetus until the 4th month of gestation. Immediately following conception, it is not even an embryo. Meiosis has not even begun. Rape is not punsihable by the death penalty, so that comment is neither here nor there. And it is not my job to worry about the rapist. That is what law enforcement is for. My job is to worry about the well being of the victim. She is my first and only concern. And there you go again, stating that the unborn baby gets death. You again are saying that a rape victim who chooses abortion is guilty of killing a baby, when nothing could be further from the truth. And if you want to talk about punishment, this young girl has been punished in untold ways, and she deserved none of it. You seem to be more worried about a small cluster of 4 cells than about the life and well being of the rape victim. How is it that these 4 cells are more important that the life that is already up and walking this earth....the child that was raped? You can't have it both ways.

 

[Cheri]

You have your opinion and I have mine, Jillio, we can keep arguing until our face turns blue.I'm withdrawing myself from this argument. Take your fight with someone else.

 

[jillio]

You have your opinion and I have mine, Jillio, we can keep arguing until our face turns blue.I'm withdrawing myself from this argument. Take your fight with someone else.

I don't have a fight with anyone, except for my victim's rights.

 

[Cowpuppy]

Sighs. Are you still accusing us, Christians, aren't you?

I'd rather to no religion comments here. ... for now.

Jillio and Shel, good post.

EDIT:


Agreed. I always keep myself down when someone is pregnant unless she needs an answer for her question, I'd rather to give her netural optional and three choice informations (abort adopt parent) she may need it. It's not my place to tell to do so.

Good idea.....and I didn't inititiate religious comment here. Don't look all innocent.
But that is the argument pro-lifers take.

 

[Cowpuppy]

I'm not the one who quotes verses.

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

If a rape victim wants an abortion, I think that is her right to have one. A rape victim doesnt need other people telling her that abortion is wrong and that she has no choice. Her choices were taken away by the rapist so it is her own private business whether she wants an abortion or not, not anyone else's.

Yep have to agree with you because every person have a right to make their own "rights" to make their own "choices" if person want abortion. Who are we to judge? that their business if a person want abortions for whatever reasons. We should respect their desicion.