What is a pro-life?

Cheri said:
:confused: "My victim" You are the ownership of the victim? Victims are not owned by anyone.

Oh really? Isn't it your job to help them get support, protection, and justice? How many cases of rape that hasn't been reported? and rape victims rarely gets justice unless they know who to look for. You seem to be more cornering about how to get rid of the unborn child. The victim need many kinds of help.
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It is my job to get the VICTIM support and protection while law enforcement and the legal system does what they are supposed to do to serve the issue of justice. Whether the perpetrator gets 15 years, or the legal process results in an aquittal, my concern is that the victim be able to deal with her emotional and psychological issues either way. I am not an attorney, nor am I a judge. There are attorneys and judges available to deal with the legal issues. I am a counselor. I deal with the psychological and emotional well being of the victim. Justice does not serve to assist the victim with these issues. Justice serves to provide punishment for the perpetrator, and a sense of justice served for the victim. The victim has to deal with many, many other issues besides whether or not law enforcement has acted in her best interest. She has to live her life either way. And rape impacts not just her need to see justice served, but her ability to interact with all the other people with who she will come in contact for the rest of her life, and every waking moment she is alive. Justice provides a momentary sense of satisfaction. Counseling provides a permanent ability to live life to the fullest despite the horrors and unfairness of life.
 
Reba said:
Absolutely not. I respect and admire Jillio for the work that she does, and the person she is. She and I disagree about issues and viewpoints. But I have nothing against her as a person. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

But the "my" point is valid because sometimes people who work in sensitive situations become overly invested in the other people. Sometimes we need to step back from too much influence and control, even when it's well meaning.
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Trust me, Reba; my objectivity is intact and functioning.
 
jillio said:
...And if the girl is a minor, her parents are involved in the process to the degree that she chooses for them to be involved. As a rape victim, she is entitled to complete confidentiality. That is an absolute for any counseling client. By law, the only time that confidentiality can be broken is if a client has revealed intention to do harm to themselves or another. If the child wants parental involvement in a session, then it is granted based on client request. However, if they request that a parent not be privy to the session,then those rights are protected by law and ethical guideline.
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How is a minor allowed to make medical decisions without parental permission? In your eyes she's a victim/client but in the eyes of her parents, she's their child. Why do the parents lose their parental rights? Unless the parents are the perpetrators of the crime, why are they stripped of their rights?
 
Pro-life video: (clean video) ;)

[yt]LdxWFr_UjqQ[/yt]
 
jillio said:
Trust me, Reba; my objectivity is intact and functioning.
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It isn't that I don't trust you; but from your posts it sounds like you really push the "get rid of it" viewpoint. That's all I have to go by.
 
Cheri;966066[B said:
]Pro-lifers are not against mothers they're against mothers killing their unborn child.[/B] If the mother's or the unborn child's life is at risk, and doctors confirm that abortion is the only option, then let it be. Abortion is much more dangerous than giving birth, if we did not care about the mothers, we would not care about their well being when they have the abortion.

Two contractory staements here. Do you care about the embryo, or do you care about the mother? You care about the mother as long as she makes the decision YOU belkeive she should make. I care about the mother whatever decision she makes. That is what pro-choice is.

The danger of abortion, and the danger of given birth are situational. There many times that prgnancy and giving birth are far more dangerous than a first trimester abortion.

And what if that mother's life is so affected by the incident that she is in danger of suicide by being forced to carry the pregnancy to term? That indeed puts her life in danger. What about the issue of quality of life?

And for rape and incest, the person who commit should be punished, not the unborn child. I don't agree in killing the unborn child for the crime of the unborn child's father did. I'm sorry, I don't.


And you are free to believe that. If you get raped violently, and conceive as a result, then you are free to choose to carry that pregnancy to term and raise that child, or give that child up for adoption. That is your choice. However, you cannot make that choice for another, nor can you judge them as having made a "wrong" decision based on your personal beliefs. mIf its wrong for you,then don't do it. But you have no right to decide that for anyone else.

Not all pro-lifers are violent people, I would not stand in front of an abortion clinic and block the doorway, I would not even kill an abortion doctors or their staffs.

I'm just standing up for the unborn child's rights and be their voice, because they were denied the right to life.
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No, you aren't. You are imposing your personal belief system on others. You have already stated that you would force a victim of rape or incest to carry the pregnancy to term based on your spiritual belief that concception is the beginning of life./COLOR]
 
Cheri said:
Pro-life video: (clean video) ;)

[yt]LdxWFr_UjqQ[/yt]
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This video is nothing more than another misguided emotional appeal. And, if you knew anything at all about prenatal development, you, too could look at these pictures and know that this is a pregnancy that has reached the stage at which elective abortion is not a choice. This fetus is well past the first trimester of gestation. In fact, it has reached the fetal stage, and at the fetal stage, abortion is not a choice. Only during the pre-embryonic and embryonic stage is an elective abortion a choice.

Your video just goes to show a complete lack of objectivity and fact regarding the issue being discussed. Please refer back to the psot where I stated, based on scietific fact, that an embryo at the 4th week of gestation (which is a time point that you mentioned previously) is less than 1/2" long, and weighs less than 1/13 of an ounce. If you want to be accurate, post that video.
 
Reba said:
Familial relationships are not the same as professional relationships.


There are some deaf clients with whom I have very close relationships with beyond the working relationship. In a classroom setting, the student "belongs" to the teacher, not the interpreter. In a medical setting, the patient "belongs" to the doctor, not the interpreter.

Sorry for getting :topic:

In that sense, you could say that the girls as your clients "belong" to you; "my clients" would be appropriate. But "my victims"? That sounds very paternalistic and demeaning. In my opinion, that is. I'm sure that's not how you treat them, or introduce them.



As I stated above, neither the deaf client nor the hearing client belong to me. Their relationship is to each other and will continue, regardless of the presence or non presence of the interpreter. But I guess that is :topic:



In a family, members belong to each other. My husband says, "my wife", and my daughter says, "my mom." It's a mutual and exclusive familial relationship, not a professional relationship.

Deaf friends and clients have expressed to me their displeasure at being referred to as "my" this or that, and they don't even like to refer to terps as "my" terp. (It's usually the hearing client who makes that mistake.) They don't like the implication that the deafie and the terp are joined at the hip.

In order to get back on topic, I will concede your terminology is not relevant to this topic. It was only relevant to my perception of your client-counselor relationship.
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My client is a victim. When advocating for her rights, I advocate in the capacity of her being a victim. Perhaps I should have said my victimized client.
 
Jillio said:
No, you aren't. You are imposing your personal belief system on others. You have already stated that you would force a victim of rape or incest to carry the pregnancy to term based on your spiritual belief that concception is the beginning of life.
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Do not put words in my mouth, and Do not twisted my words around either, I did not say anything about "force" a victim of rape or incest to carry the pregnancy, I said I DO NOT AGREE in killing the unborn for the crime of the father and I've also said I would not tell her she should get an abortion, and I would also not tell her she shouldn't get an abortion.
 
Cheri said:
Do not put words in my mouth, and Do not twisted my words around either, I did not say anything about "force" a victim of rape or incest to carry the pregnancy, I said I DO NOT AGREE in killing the unborn for the crime of the father and I've also said I would not tell her she should get an abortion, and I would also not tell her she shouldn't get an abortion.
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But you would consider it as murder and selfish if the victim of rapist or incest decide for abortion.
 
Cheri said:
Do not put words in my mouth, and Do not twisted my words around either, I did not say anything about "force" a victim of rape or incest to carry the pregnancy, I said I DO NOT AGREE in killing the unborn for the crime of the father and I've also said I would not tell her she should get an abortion, and I would also not tell her she shouldn't get an abortion.
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Okay. Then you support her right to choose.
 
I´m with Jillio, Shel90 & GTM´s most posts.

I have been debated with pro-lifers in several threads in the past. They consider it as murder and selfish if mother decides for abortion for mainly reasons...

Like what Jillo stated about victims, etc.

It´s victims and their feeling, I am concern about. Their feeling is mainly matter to me. I support their choice either they want to abort or not WITHOUT convince them to not abortion. I respect their choice because it´s them who have feeling, not us.
 
Liebling:-))) said:
But you would consider it as murder and selfish if the victim of rapist or incest decide for abortion.
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Everyone has an opinion and a right to express them to a point, there is no right or wrong. You may not like my thoughts, but sometimes I don't like yours either.
 
Cheri said:
And you never do?
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Not when it comes to their right to live my their own personal moral code. Its not my job to judge them. And not to the point that I would consider imposition of my beliefs on them in a situation that does not involve me. I support their right to have different beliefs and to make different decision.
 
jillio said:
Okay. Then you support her right to choose.
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Wrong, it does not mean I will support her decision.

I would share my opinions and my thoughts of what I thought of abortion. It's not the same as using "force".

I'm done, I want to respect Mann's thread by leaving the argument, it's not going nowhere to the point, we keep going in circles.
 
Cheri said:
Wrong, it does not mean I will support her decision.

I would share my opinions and my thoughts of what I thought of abortion. It's not the same as using "force".

I'm done, I want to respect Mann's thread by leaving the argument, it's not going nowhere to the point, we keep going in circles.
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You keep going back and forth. First you say that you would not tell her that she should or should not have an abortion, then you say that you would try to impose your belief system on her.

And that is just the point. If you seek to remove her freedom to make the choice for herself, whether it is through force by removing the fight of all womento legally make this choice, or by coercion, by preaching your value system to her in an atttempt to get her to see things from your perspective, you are still attempting to make others live my your personal moral code.

You don't seem to see the difference between allowing others to make a choice for themselves, and accepting that they have the right to make that decision and they also have the right to be supported in that decision, and trying toconvince others that if they make any decision other than the one you would make that they are wrong or amoral or murderers.
 
jillio said:
You keep going back and forth. First you say that you would not tell her that she should or should not have an abortion, then you say that you would try to impose your belief system on her.
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You still do not understand me, or get my point.

I'll give you an example, If a friend of mine did wanted to have an abortion, I gave her my honest perspective of what I thought of abortion, how abortion is not safe, that the unborn child is human, how she may will remember the abortion experience and will feel guilty, like I did and etc.

I would not force her to keep that baby, I will not stand by the doorway of abortion clinic and stop her from going in and get an abortion. I will not hate her if she decide to go for an abortion, I would be disappointing that she decided to have an abortion. It'll break my heart. But, what can I really do? Nothing.

So, don't compare every pro-lifers with other pro-lifers. Mann already told you that once before, and I'm telling you the same. :)
 
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