use of device in children or not

[Cloggy]

.......You know why being deaf is no picknick? Because of barrier dividing people who are deaf from hearing people and it's communication. If hearing people would take the time and patient in learning how to communicate with the deaf, we wouldn't be having this issue now would we? Look into the world, You'll see there are many different people with different cultures, backgrounds, values and one thing I just don't get is, Why are they being discriminated? Why are they treated like second-class citizens? I never understand that. We are all people, we are all human. My question is to you, Is that how you looked at it and run away from the fact what happened to us could happened to your daughter too?

Unfair as it is, minorities are allways treated different. It is true for deaf minorities, but also for any other minority. What you wrote could have been written by a Spanish person in America, or a black person, a chinese... etc.
One important reason - unfair as it is - is the problem with communication between the majority and the minority. And in real life... the minority is the group to adjust.
One cannot expect the majority to learn the communication that is used by the minority, since that would require so many languages with so many people. The minority should adjust since in general it would require 1 extra language.
It would be great if everybody spoke sign.... but that a very unrealistic wish.

How does this scenario sound...
I should start learning chinese when we adopt a beautiful little chines girl. We need to do that because otherwise she will not be able to grow up with her own chines identity. It will become clear to her eventually that she is different.

 

[Foxrac]

I have to agree with you Cloggy on the multiligualism bit. It is very difficult for most Americans to grasp and we tend to get very much centered on the concept that English is it. For better or worst, spanish is forcing us to reexamine that issue as it gets more prominant.

I can't see your daughter doing as well without the tools of a CI in your society especially when the different languages will often spinoff different sign languages. That kind of meltingpot really forces one to have dibs in the hearing world somehow... To expect any deaf child to do well (without HA or CI) in a multilingual society as you mentioned is almost impossible (and is often impossible) and asking too much.

Yea, California is #1 most spanish speaking in US but English is still dominant because most of students are now learn to englidh speaking, also not strong enough as people who learn to english speaking when they are toddlers and most students (non-hispanic) are required to take forgein classes for graduation credit. If deaf kids with HA, CI or none are exempt from take this courses but they can learn to use ASL.

 

[StacieLeigh]

Ah... I've seen plenty of hearing parents here had stated that nobody in the family are deaf, Am I correct so far? I also seen plenty of there's no deaf community where their hometown is located at, Am I correct again? I've seen plenty of hearing parents had stated that if they didn't give their children implant it's like restrict the child from obtaining to hear. Am I correct for the final time? I could go on forever to pull up all that I've picked up from hearing parents on this board. What does that make me think? It makes me think that it's what the parents want for themselves to make their duty much easlier. I know you gotta hate me for saying this. But, I'm sorry.

Very sorry to prove you wrong.
I grew up as the only deaf in the whole family, no deaf community and all that stuff. My parents did a great job with me, they worked their asses off with me. Hearing parents do not take the easy road.There are NO easy road when it comes to raising a deaf child. No matter what parents decide, it will always be a challenge.

 

[Angel]

That's not what I meant by what I stated above, I meant that when parents discovered their child is deaf, They don't know what to do, how to deal with the situation, thinking negative upon their future, example: how they'll impact within the world, finding jobs, communications along other people out in the world. That's what I meant by finding an easy way out on an implant not having to worry about their future, because they can hear but not 100 percent.

You got a good point there and I see that too...Sometimes I wonder what IF the child just want to remain deaf and just wearhearing aids even it may or may not help them....

Since every child is different , some may just be as thriller that they can actually hear a whole lot better, some just wants to remain silence...

 

[Angel]

Very sorry to prove you wrong.
I grew up as the only deaf in the whole family, no deaf community and all that stuff. My parents did a great job with me, they worked their asses off with me. Hearing parents do not take the easy road.There are NO easy road when it comes to raising a deaf child. No matter what parents decide, it will always be a challenge.

Prove her wrong on which part? I see it as her spreaking what she sees, there's no right and wrong in this...

 

[StacieLeigh]

Prove her wrong on which part? I see it as her spreaking what she sees, there's no right and wrong in this...

Okay, what do you think she sees? Just to clarify....

 

[Angel]

Okay, what do you think she sees? Just to clarify....

The way I see where she is coming from is that some hearing parents DO rather to see that their deaf child to hear so they can have a better and successful future, but there are those of us who are deaf and still are without the implants can and do have a good and successful life too, but there are some parents who look at it like a deaf child couldn't do any better without being able to hear, and that's not true.... Even some of us may not have parents who would understand what it may be like to walk a mile or so in our shoes, but we have feelings, and sometimes our feelings tell us we want to be what we are and we can survive in this world with or without any tools to help us hear....It can go both ways....

I'm not saying parents are making the wrong decisions here and we do know from time to time parents don't always make the right or good decision for their deaf child, but that don't mean that these parents are bad either for the choices that they do make for their deaf child....every child, every family is unique in their own way and etc, and some of us may not have a great parents who may not know a thing or two on how to raise a deaf child or what we want or can do etc..

 

[IslandGal]

Cheri and ^Angel^ have said it all beautifully well

My parents were one of the parents who never knew anything about the deafness when they first found out I was deaf. They were shocked and upset that I will never be able to function well in this world. This ENT and an audiologist told them to put me in a private boarding oral school or I will never be able to learn anything so they did what they were told. Gee, I was only 3 years old at that time and these people had no hearts to tell my parents to put me in a boarding school! My Dad had to work himself to death with working at 2 different jobs so he could be able to afford to pay the private school fees. My Mom also had to work long days at her job. My Dad and my Mom along with my two older sisters and I always had our hearts broken every time I go back to the school after being at home on holidays. To this date we look back and talk with tears in our eyes about how hard it were on us but then we smile about when my parents came to it that they have had enough with the long absences between us for five years. They decided to put me in a local school where I didn't have an interpreter until I was 14 when we first learnt about a deaf school where they used sign language. We decided to pay a visit to this school and we were awed at everyone's hands flying in the air and how beautiful it was. After I got to learn sign language my world has changed for better!

When I come to think of it I know my parents would have had me implanted with a CI right away. I wouldn't blame them for making that decision because i know it would not be their fault but that doctor's. I know the doctor would have told them that a CI was the only chance for me.

 

[Foxrac]

Cloggy and Boult, Who hell cares about deaf kids need learn to use oral language?

That's totally pointless but using oral language is still hard for deaf people, also don't matters if wear CI or HA and some deaf kids that who got implanted when they are toddlers then it's more likely to be HoH instead of normal hearing because people who is HoH have some hard time to use oral language, not 100% are hard but it about 30% of languages are hard for HoH.

HA is work so well for HoH and none of quality to get CI, and few cases are got CI though.

Boult, you are still deaf and don't matters because CI can turn on or off, or can turn off itself when battery is died.

 

[Angel]

Cheri and ^Angel^ have said it all beautifully well

My parents were one of the parents who never knew anything about the deafness when they first found out I was deaf. They were shocked and upset that I will never be able to function well in this world. This ENT and an audiologist told them to put me in a private boarding oral school or I will never be able to learn anything so they did what they were told. Gee, I was only 3 years old at that time and these people had no hearts to tell my parents to put me in a boarding school! My Dad had to work himself to death with working at 2 different jobs so he could be able to afford to pay the private school fees. My Mom also had to work long days at her job. My Dad and my Mom along with my two older sisters and I always had our hearts broken every time I go back to the school after being at home on holidays. To this date we look back and talk with tears in our eyes about how hard it were on us but then we smile about when my parents came to it that they have had enough with the long absences between us for five years. They decided to put me in a local school where I didn't have an interpreter until I was 14 when we first learnt about a deaf school where they used sign language. We decided to pay a visit to this school and we were awed at everyone's hands flying in the air and how beautiful it was. After I got to learn sign language my world has changed for better!

When I come to think of it I know my parents would have had me implanted with a CI right away. I wouldn't blame them for making that decision because i know it would not be their fault but that doctor's. I know the doctor would have told them that a CI was the only chance for me.

<<Sorry I couldn't help myself, I just feel that you needed one...

 

[StacieLeigh]

Thank you for clarifying this.

I'm am very proud of my parents for the job they did with me. They had no idea on what to do when they found out I was deaf, but they worked together to give me the best possible way of life they thought was best.
But I hear ya on not having parents that truly understand what it's like to walk a mile in our shoes. They have no clues, but I cannot hold it against them for not knowing what it's like. They know how hard I worked to proved to hearing people that I CAN do what they do, maybe better lol.
Great posting Angel, I repsect your opinion and do see where ya coming from....

The way I see where she is coming from is that some hearing parents DO rather to see that their deaf child to hear so they can have a better and successful future, but there are those of us who are deaf and still are without the implants can and do have a good and successful life too, but there are some parents who look at it like a deaf child couldn't do any better without being able to hear, and that's not true.... Even some of us may not have parents who would understand what it may be like to walk a mile or so in our shoes, but we have feelings, and sometimes our feelings tell us we want to be what we are and we can survive in this world with or without any tools to help us hear....It can go both ways....

I'm not saying parents are making the wrong decisions here and we do know from time to time parents don't always make the right or good decision for their deaf child, but that don't mean that these parents are bad either for the choices that they do make for their deaf child....every child, every family is unique in their own way and etc, and some of us may not have a great parents who may not know a thing or two on how to raise a deaf child or what we want or can do etc..

 

[jillio]

Jillio,
I can see your point of view, but just want to set mine next to yours.

In a way that is true. There are other options. The same is true for circumcision. Here, there is no benefit at all, but there are risks. Another area wher unnessasary operations take place is with a cesarian delivery when it is done because the womand asks for it. (I'm not talking about C-sections based on medical indication.)But is it important that the sound is exactly the same? If a microwave sounds like a "pling" to you, but a "plong" to me, we will still recognise it.
Apart from that, when I say "steamtrain" to my daughter, she repeats "steamtrain". So, believing the child can hear is not a wrong statement. OUr daughter can hear. She speaks sentences and asks questions.People that consider it a cure for deafness are wrong. My daughter is still deaf when she takes off the CI. And she is happy with that as well. Just keeps on talking. Her world exists of silence AND sounds. She's deaf and she can hear.
And I feel that you realise that there is a difference between HA and CI. After our daughter was diagnosed profoundly deaf, we had her use a HA. WHen it was appearent taht it didn't help, then, only then we could t make the decision between CI or deaf. We chose the latter.I'm sorry to hear that. The statement is true for me. I want my daughter to hear the sounds I hear. I want her to be able to communicate with Norwegian, Dutch, English and deaf people (random order!) In a couple of years, she will be able to do that.
About accepting the child to be deaf... we did and then we heared about CI. We communicate with sign and still do.

Like you say, it's OK for a child to be different than it's parents. Our daughter is that.

Points well taken. You obviously have taken the time to consider all options and understand that CI does not make a child "not deaf". Unfortunately, I have not run into many hearing parents that have taken the time to educate themselves on all of the issues, and too often, the professionals do not give information contrary to their position or philosophy. That leads to parents sometimes making uninformed decisions. Decisions that perhaps would have been different had they been given ALL the information. I do not doubt that you have accepted your daughter's deafness, but the unfortunate fact is that many hearing parents never do that, and are always on the look out for anything that will change their child into what they want him/her to be. My concern is for the message that gives to the child, and the lasting effects on their self esteem and identity.

 

[jillio]

You got a good point there and I see that too...Sometimes I wonder what IF the child just want to remain deaf and just wearhearing aids even it may or may not help them....

Since every child is different , some may just be as thriller that they can actually hear a whole lot better, some just wants to remain silence...

Very good point. This is the situation with my son. Now that he is 20 years, he no longer even wears his HA. Because all the attempts to force speech and use residual hearing and all the therapy the "experts" told me was necessary, he became very frustrated and angry, and was no longer my sweet, good natured little boy. I couldn't stand what it was doing to him. So I took a differet road. Instead of trying to make him more like hearing, I tried to get more understanding of what it is to be deaf. I talked to many deaf adults, I learned sign, I talked to hearing that educated deaf. I asked my son, explain to me what you experience so I can understand. I have been criticized for my decisions by the hearing world, just as some parents are criticized for implanting their kids. But that's okay, because I have a happy well adjusted young man that I call son, and that's all I ever wanted for him whether he was deaf or hearing. Just to be happy, and to be able to live his life in a way that icomfortable for him.

 

[neecy]

Cloggy and Boult, Who hell cares about deaf kids need learn to use oral language?

That's totally pointless but using oral language is still hard for deaf people, also don't matters if wear CI or HA and some deaf kids that who got implanted when they are toddlers then it's more likely to be HoH instead of normal hearing because people who is HoH have some hard time to use oral language, not 100% are hard but it about 30% of languages are hard for HoH.

HA is work so well for HoH and none of quality to get CI, and few cases are got CI though.

Boult, you are still deaf and don't matters because CI can turn on or off, or can turn off itself when battery is died.

You're not listening (or is it reading?)!!!!! Cloggy pointed out that his situation is DIFFERENT than yours and those who live in the US. He lives in a society where multiple languages are the norm, and understanding the languages is vital to being able to communicate. For his daughter, being able to communicate orally (as well as understand what's said to her) AND use sign language is a huge advantage, otherwise she'd be limited to ONE language, (sign) and those few who know it.

Remember - each language has its own version of sign as well. Why should she have to struggle with learning 2-3 different sign languages AND how to lipread the speech of those languages when with a CI she can speak them herself and understand them? If Cloggy's daughter is happy and healthy and enjoying her life - how is that BAD?

 

[greema]

I've wondered this since I started looking into CI for my daughter! From middle school through high school I was around the deaf community in our area alot. Most of my friends had parents that were deaf/hh. And when I found out that my daughter was deaf, I did NOT want her to get a CI even if HA's didn't work.


But I got thinking about it. How is this different from wanting a child to have a prosthesis of another kind? Probably most of us have seen those specials about children missing limbs that have gotten a prosthesis to help them walk or whatnot. That decision was made by the parents wanting the best for their child. Why aren't they criticized too? The younger children aren't asked, they are told they are going to start learning to use this. Why do parents get it? Because they know that more things will be open and available to their child with it. In the case of a leg, more jobs will be available, the child will be able to learn to play sports, dance, etc.. Those parents still accept their children as they are. They don't love them any less because they are missing a limb. They know that a prosthesis doesn't change who their child is, it doesn't suddenly make them "whole". And they know it's not the same as having a natural limb. But there doens't seem to be this huge controversy for them. They seem to be congratulated and supported for their choice.

Is it because those missing limbs haven't come together and started their own culture? And if we go into a CI being wrong because it strips a child of their deaf culture, then you must be against interracial children too? Isn't that the same? An interracial child is neither completely one race or another, niether all one culture or the other, but is able to learn from both, interact with both and as they grow up keep the customs and such that they prefer from both. Why is that so wrong with CI children? They get to be part of both the hearing culture and the deaf culture, they get to see both sides of the coin. As they grow up they can then decided for themselves what they want. How can you truly decided what you want if you don't know the other side of things?

If my daughter grows up and decides she no longer wants to use her CI. That's fine. That her choice. But right now, as her parents - it is my choice. That's what being a parent is about. Parents try to give their child as many tools as possible to carry through to adulthood. If parents think it is so important for children in general to have an understanding and appreciation for other cultures, religions, and ways of life in general, then I fail to see how this is so different.

:jaw:

Oh wow! You really nailed that one! And yes, it IS your choice -- your child needs as many tools that she can use! Fragmenter has been trying to say this all along and you come along and express it so beautifully!

 

[Foxrac]

You're not listening (or is it reading?)!!!!! Cloggy pointed out that his situation is DIFFERENT than yours and those who live in the US. He lives in a society where multiple languages are the norm, and understanding the languages is vital to being able to communicate. For his daughter, being able to communicate orally (as well as understand what's said to her) AND use sign language is a huge advantage, otherwise she'd be limited to ONE language, (sign) and those few who know it.

Remember - each language has its own version of sign as well. Why should she have to struggle with learning 2-3 different sign languages AND how to lipread the speech of those languages when with a CI she can speak them herself and understand them? If Cloggy's daughter is happy and healthy and enjoying her life - how is that BAD?

I dunno, Norway seems much different from USA but English is most speaking language and Spanish is 2nd most speaking language too. Deaf people can take spanish classes to learn about words only, not oral.

 

[greema]

(whatever -- he lives in his own world)

 

[IslandGal]

<<Sorry I couldn't help myself, I just feel that you needed one...

Awww too.

Thanks

 

[jag]

Yea, California is #1 most spanish speaking in US but English is still dominant because most of students are now learn to englidh speaking, also not strong enough as people who learn to english speaking when they are toddlers and most students (non-hispanic) are required to take forgein classes for graduation credit. If deaf kids with HA, CI or none are exempt from take this courses but they can learn to use ASL.

What good would it do a deaf elem. school student who's mainstreamed and uses ASL when the requirements for forgien languages isn't until they are in hs. Using a HA and a terp if necessary would still have a deaf elem student isolated from kids who can hear. Now if you place a CI in a toddler that same student in elem school would probably rely more on voice and sound and interact just like other kids. Oh and while big schools are supposedly ok, I live in an area where everyone knows everyone else and you go from k-12 with many of the same classmates, if a deaf child with a ci was in the class that child would be excepted and rejected just like all the other kids in the class. Perhaps if larger cities didn't ship kids off to at least 3 different schools that make them lose friends and have to make new ones children with ci would have an easier time and the others would actually get to know them and be friends through life.

I really don't get what you're attempting to say in your last sentence, it makes no sense.

 

[jag]

The way I see where she is coming from is that some hearing parents DO rather to see that their deaf child to hear so they can have a better and successful future, but there are those of us who are deaf and still are without the implants can and do have a good and successful life too, but there are some parents who look at it like a deaf child couldn't do any better without being able to hear, and that's not true.... ..

And that's bad? It's bad to want their children to have the easier way to success? You do admit that deaf people do not have an easy time learning to communicate effectively in a hearing world, that you do have to depend on interpetors, tty's, writing etc. all of which slow the communication process down. It's not that parents don't think that their deaf children can not succeed without hearing, it's that they KNOW that being able to hear will make that process easier.