UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

[DURAY]

so why didn't the the liberals who worked at HUD, Labor, Education Departments who have President Bush as their top boss from 2001 to early 2009? Because they have mortgages/rent to paid. they wised up.

If you felt that strongly about President Bush, why did you continue to work for him? He was Commander in Chief of the forces for whom you work. Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

 

[Reba]

so why didn't the the liberals who worked at HUD, Labor, Education Departments who have President Bush as their top boss from 2001 to early 2009? Because they have mortgages/rent to paid. they wised up.

So do you think it's ethical for someone to continually accuse her boss of being a war criminal but accept money for doing work that supports the boss's war? Does that make the worker also guilty?

 

[Doug5]

if a suspect has info about a nuke ready to go off in a city, I say torture them all they want

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I can't help you to educate yourself about the REAL REALITY that you don't want to see.

Excuse me, I know what I am saying. I tried to explain that Censorship is a word of many meanings

The terrorists are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from common criminals.

Of course I know the terrorists are involved against political issues which is not same thing as criminals. What's your point?

Please refer to my post in other thread about Bush Administration.

Yes, I have read your post at other thread and choose to respect your view on this.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Please stick with the facts, not assumptions. again - proof please?

The links of interview were being posted several times on this thread. I really have no idea why you overlook it.

THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE DOING!!!! What do you mean hold them for years? Do you have any idea how long the legal proceeding takes? It's not an overnight thing. Lot of criminal cases takes years. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

No, you really have no idea what you are saying...

Terrorists and criminals are suppose to get fair trial but terrorists doesn't. Just hold terrorists for years without charge/trial but criminals does.

WTF? you're comparing our Detention Camps with your country's Nazi death camps? and you work for USA Military?

*SMH* It's disgusting to me. absolutely disgraceful.

Huh? I do not compare Gitmo torture camp with Nazi death camp. It's justice, I'm refer to because they have Nuremberg trial to sentence the people who commit criminal to death, life, years, etc. Why can't they do the same to sentence Bush Admin. then? That's Justice, what I question about... and beleive in justice that the government should prosecute Bush Admin. like what they did with the people during Nazi time. Please don't misinterpreted my post.

Ask me if I care about the world's views. They didn't have 4 planes hijacked and flown toward to 2 major financial towers, military headquarter, and ALMOST White House so they need to STFU because we bailed out their ass many times. Why spit at us now when you all supported us and our actions after 9/11?

No, Bush Admin. have no reason to "arrest" and authorize his people to torture the wrong people without charge/proof/etc. Why hold them for years without charge for? Why just only muslim for?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling, just dropping a note on what I can see Jiro is trying to say to you about the censorship.

There are two ways of depicting information that is blocked to the public, this is for USA only. Reba said it earlier in the other post she replied to me.

1) Geheimhaltungsstufe
In our military, any information that is under geheimhaltungsstufe "geheim einstufend" - only the military knows about it, and will not tell us. We are free to make any articles, news, ideas and thoughts about these "geheimnisse" that they do not wish us to know the details about. We can say anything we want about these secrets, from our own opinions. They will not stop us from making opinions.


2) Zensur (not school grades, but of "Informations kontrolle")
This means anything that we know - newspaper, tv, internet, mail, phone, everything -- about a particular subject is "absperren" by the government, "assistieren" by the military. Any news or info that comes out is blocked as well. I see you understand this already. But there is a part 2. If this Guantanamo Bay subject was censored - we can't see those pictures, pictures of actual Guantanamo waterboarding, the story of the Guantanamo prisoners. These articles would all be blocked, if they were posted, they would get taken down and our government would arrest them.

Currently, Guatanamo is not censored because we can see these articles and pictures, story from the prisoners, and guard.

Censorship is a word of many meanings.

Example of all -

I was like after read German and English wikipedia over Zion few weeks ago before I created a thread "Censorship" that there're a lot of missing in English wikipedia than German wikipedia... I saw wikipedia mentioned on the list in the censorship link at my thread... I found 2 links and will post 2 links at my thread "Censorship" later.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

If you watch that german news video I posted, they are talking and comparing Nixon. Why are they doing that? Can you tell me what you think?

I viewed 7 minutes German video, you posted. Yes, but it's not just 7 minutes between 20 and 45 minutes... I have seen a lot of interviews over their experience in Gitmo camp. They showed their scar body...

About Nixon - no they do not compare Nixon with Bush. They remind us that Nixon face consequence over watergate scandal... Why can't Bush do the same then? It's about justice, we refer to those questions.

This is the deutsche they spoke of for that part:


Anklage wegen Folter?
Here is the direct link to ZDF heuten's website for their video on this if you can't see the youtube.

ZDF.de - "Die Leute ganz oben"
This is ZDF news article about it.

for link - yes, I watch ZDF news everyday but it's not few minutes but 20 minutes... and world journal 45 minutes...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I didn't post any censored pictures. If they had been censored I wouldn't have access to them.

If there is no torture room, how can they show one?

So the military should ignore all standards of safety, security, and privacy, just to provide reporters with a story? I don't think so.

If you beleive that the pictures, you posted is not censored then is your perogative.

Are you seriously comparing what happened in WWII concentration camps with today's GITMO?

Please don't twist my post because I never compare WWII with Gitmo camp. I answered your question about WWII and censorship issues. Please stick it and

GITMO was never set up as a place to torture and kill people, unlike the Nazi concentration camps. You have some nerve comparing the two.

You said this, not me because I don't compare Nazi camp with Gitmo camp. I really don't have idea why you accuse me for...

If you think American soldiers are so murderous, cruel, and lying, why do you work for them? Why do you accept their blood money? If you really believe that the military that runs GITMO is as bad as WWII Nazis, why do you work for them? Isn't that the same as the Germans whose work supported Nazi camps?

I beleive in and respect justice system. I work for US Government for long years and obey the law before Bush Admin. come and violate the US law which is not acceptance. We have the right to defend US law. Its about justice. I thought you beleive in justice, don't you?

If you know that then why do you believe the GITMO prisoners? You admit that they can lie.

That's why I kept quiet during debate threads since 2004 until I saw the proof then I can say something. They repeated their words over form of torture for years since after 9/11. Their scars are shown... I watched their TV interviews and use my common sense.

Are you talking about waterboarding?

Torture is Torture..., not just waterboarding.

 

[Reba]

GITMO is not a "torture camp." Continually calling it that is an insult to all the American military who serve there.

 

[Reba]

If I worked for the US Army, and I believed that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would quit. I would not accept blood money.

If someone continues working for the military during an "illegal" war, then that person cares more about money than about conscience. I think that is clear enough.

If a former prisoner shows a scar, how do we know who caused the injury, when it was done, where it was done, and why it was done? People can lie.

 

[Jiro]

Excuse me, I know what I am saying. I tried to explain that Censorship is a word of many meanings

Censorship is a word of many meanings.

Example of all -

I was like after read German and English wikipedia over Zion few weeks ago before I created a thread "Censorship" that there're a lot of missing in English wikipedia than German wikipedia... I saw wikipedia mentioned on the list in the censorship link at my thread... I found 2 links and will post 2 links at my thread "Censorship" later.

Yes I understand. That's why we EXPLAINED "censorship" to you MANY MANY TIMES and you STILL disagree with us. :roll: Please listen to us for once.

 

[Jiro]

Of course I know the terrorists are involved against political issues which is not same thing as criminals. What's your point?

What's my point, you ask? According to your statement - you CLEARLY state that you understand the difference between terrorist and criminals. Here's a funny thing. See your posts below -

No, you really have no idea what you are saying...

Terrorists and criminals are suppose to get fair trial but terrorists doesn't. Just hold terrorists for years without charge/trial but criminals does.

No, Bush Admin. have no reason to "arrest" and authorize his people to torture the wrong people without charge/proof/etc. Why hold them for years without charge for? Why just only muslim for?

Again - you asked what was my point. Here you go - in your 2nd post, you CLEARLY do not understand the difference of legal proceedings for criminals and terrorists. How many times do I have to tell you? Why do you continue to ignore us?

First of all - the legal proceeding for terrorists are CLASSIFIED and it takes TIME. Reba and I explained to you several times about how it works when dealing with terrorists. You either still do not understand or ignore it.

The reason why the criminal courts are processed much faster than terrorists is because criminals live in America. It's easy for police to investigate. But terrorists are foreigners... probably from Yemen, Iran, Syria, etc. Do you think it's easy for American government like CIA/FBI/etc. to go into that country and investigate? Those countries HATE us.

Please re-read Reba's post in other thread

Gathering evidence and testimony takes time, especially since it has to be gathered from several foreign locations, including war zones and countries hostile to the United States. There's a lack of cooperation, to put it mildly.

The case against al Nashiri is not based on his confession only. If you read the transcript, you will see that there were other sources of information in addition to his statement. Also, we're seeing only the unclassified portion. We don't know what's in the classified portion.

As you see from al Nashiri's history, he had to be kept in custody until his trial. He's not the kind of guy you can issue a ticket and expect to show up on his court date. Also, he had already been convicted of terrorism by Yemen.

Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri

 

[Jiro]

The links of interview were being posted several times on this thread. I really have no idea why you overlook it.

I'll explain why I'm overlooking most of your posts.

Huh? I do not compare Gitmo torture camp with Nazi death camp. It's justice, I'm refer to because they have Nuremberg trial to sentence the people who commit criminal to death, life, years, etc. Why can't they do the same to sentence Bush Admin. then? That's Justice, what I question about... and beleive in justice that the government should prosecute Bush Admin. like what they did with the people during Nazi time. Please don't misinterpreted my post.

About Nixon - no they do not compare Nixon with Bush. They remind us that Nixon face consequence over watergate scandal... Why can't Bush do the same then? It's about justice, we refer to those questions.

I beleive in and respect justice system. I work for US Government for long years and obey the law before Bush Admin. come and violate the US law which is not acceptance. We have the right to defend US law. Its about justice. I thought you beleive in justice, don't you?

So you worked for US Military who was under President Bush's command... and paid by Bush Administration for 8 years... Let me ask you this - what about a secretary who doesn't believe in torture and killing of innocents but worked for Nazi Government? was that wrong?

btw - you claimed to respect justice system. Why can't you understand & respect our justice system for terrorists? Now do you understand why I'm overlooking your posts? I've never felt any more disgusted than this... this is far far worse than what I feel about USA Government dropping the charges against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

You need to close your mouth and stop posting any further about this issue because your posts are, IMO, flaming and trolling.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

It's np, but after I watched that video, I can see why now some Germans may have a bad taste of American politics.

The Deutsch are REALLY talking down about the "torture" techniques, their health expert and human rights experts showing up and giving their opinion, talking about Bush vs Nixon, etc.. This footage is like the oil that fuels the fire for this whole thing.

I watched it 5 times.

Sorry for not answer your post an earlier which I should answer yesterday but I'm busy...

Here is answer to your post here and other post #252 with German language... (It's cute of you to post German language here)...

The 7 minutes video, you first posted... It written that it's not just waterboarding what US meida claim but more form of torture than waterboard, they did to Gitmo prisoners.

We know for a long time that Bush see after Iraq oil, not Saddam and "WMD". Why do he send his soliders to Iraq war for when Bush KNEW in the beginning that Saddam don't have WMD? It's sad that his lies drove thousands US and Iraqi including children to death...

There're no Nixon vs Bush but remind us about Nixon and his watergate scandal that Nixon faces the consequene... why can't they do the same to Bush for war crime then?

EU including Germany tried to prosecute Bush and his Admin. for war crime in 2006 but no successful but they were being denied... We (EU and other countries) know Bush Admin. did illegal.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

GITMO is not a "torture camp." Continually calling it that is an insult to all the American military who serve there.

This is an exact reason why Obama closed the Gitmo camp because US soliders and interrogators who work in Gitmo camp, treat detainees inhumanity is an embarrassment and insult USA's reputation and also world as well.

The people I know at work, they said the same thing... They pissed on Bush Admin. for hurt USA's reputation.

It's also embarrassment to Germans as well over Nazi camp in the past... They accept the fact that the world use those word "Nazi death camp". The people never stop to talk about "Nazi death camp" for over 60 years... I have no problem to accept it because it's true.... If you don't like me to use those word "torture camp" then you should refain those word "death camp" as well.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

*cynically* Here is my opposite reply to your hypocritical post...

Reba's post
If you felt that strongly about President Bush, why did you continue to work for him? He was Commander in Chief of the forces for whom you work. Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

Why can't you say this to Americans who don't support Iraq war and also anti-Bush as well, why did they continue to work to pay tax to him because they know that Bush spend their taxes to Iraq war... Why just me? Hypocritical!!!! :roll:

If I worked for the US Army, and I believed that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would quit. I would not accept blood money.

If I live in America, and I beleived that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would leave USA because I do not accept to pay tax to support him... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush then?

If someone continues working for the military during an "illegal" war, then that person cares more about money than about conscience. I think that is clear enough.

If someone continue to live in America when they know Bush Admin. support illegal war...... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush supporters? I think that is clear enough.

If a former prisoner shows a scar, how do we know who caused the injury, when it was done, where it was done, and why it was done? People can lie.

Not just one former prisoner but MANY detainees who have scars of cigarette burnt, dog bites... electric shock, etc. Many detainess reported the same thing about form of torture.

Well, you remind me of my past... would you call me a liar if I tell you about my bad experience with my former boss and false witness at 20 years ago? I was being attacked by my boss over that proof paper, (my former boss & I were alone in the office) for tried to take the paper away from me to prevent me from foward the proof to Chain of command.. I ran to work council and accompanied me to doctor straight way. I was stay home for long 6 weeks... Guess what, I lost case at court because they beleive witness more than my scar... and I have no hand against him because he did his successful to attack me to take paper away from me.. (long story about the paper...).

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Well, it's hard to dispute this one. One must earn wages and make a living too, no matter how hypocritical you can get.


Example:

Remember Robert Scoble aka "Scoblizer"?
If you dunno who he is, he was the guy who worked at Microsoft at day, and a giant hissy piss-on-my-company at night. He published his works and comments on them online in a blog, to be read by millions of people.

That didn't get him to stop working there until Microsoft discovered who he was and terminated his employment due to his blog.


Only the true to their feelings and take on life, will quit a job that is related to what they would believe is unfair.

DURAY's post.
so why didn't the the liberals who worked at HUD, Labor, Education Departments who have President Bush as their top boss from 2001 to early 2009? Because they have mortgages/rent to paid. they wised up.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Reba's post
They started to give each one a fair trial but Obama canceled the trials. Complain to him.

exactly -

President Obama: Suspend Gitmo Trials
Gitmo war crimes court halted at Obama request
9/11 Families Outraged by Obama Call to Suspend Guantanamo War Crimes Trials

and hundred more links....

I posted at Reba's thread.


http://www.alldeaf.com/war-politica...ss-cole-victims-outraged-obamas-decision.html

 

[Liebling:-)))]

What's my point, you ask? According to your statement - you CLEARLY state that you understand the difference between terrorist and criminals. Here's a funny thing. See your posts below -



Again - you asked what was my point. Here you go - in your 2nd post, you CLEARLY do not understand the difference of legal proceedings for criminals and terrorists. How many times do I have to tell you? Why do you continue to ignore us?

First of all - the legal proceeding for terrorists are CLASSIFIED and it takes TIME. Reba and I explained to you several times about how it works when dealing with terrorists. You either still do not understand or ignore it.

The reason why the criminal courts are processed much faster than terrorists is because criminals live in America. It's easy for police to investigate. But terrorists are foreigners... probably from Yemen, Iran, Syria, etc. Do you think it's easy for American government like CIA/FBI/etc. to go into that country and investigate? Those countries HATE us.

Please re-read Reba's post in other thread

ADers would disagree with you on this. Have you read the whole of thread, Reba created?

We beleive in justice. The terrorists and criminals both should treat equal if they have proof against them for what they commit.

Many Muslim/Arabs were being "arrest" by Pakistani authorities to give them to US authorities for money... the people who were being accused for USS Cole attack in 2000 was arrested by Pakistani authorities in 2002 and keep them for YEARS without trail/charge. We can't prove that it's really them who were responsible for USS Cole attack or 9/11 becuase Bush Admin. did not do anything with them in legal way but just keep them and released them for years then leave everything to Obama to clean up... Why can't Bush Admin. do something because the families of victims wait for long 7 years for justice?

Can you please explain me why Muslim/Arab Journalists and doctors were also accussed as a terrorist suspect by US authorities and then keep them in Gitmo camp years for?

 

[Frisky Feline]

Criminal happens to be in USA that we are able to collect the evidenes right there because we are in USA already. While the terrorists did bad thing in the other country/countries that we usa have to FLY over there and unfamiliar with the atomsphere where we can collect the evidences and try to deal in the differen way of dealing with their OWN cultures. They let us to pry around in their countries by collecting the evidences are not EASY.

that's what Jiro meant about between the criminal and terrorists that takes procedures differently. USA attitudes toward to USA criminal that we know their tendiences of doing etc while we usa are unfamilar with not us citizen like terrorists with their different languages and trying to know their cultures.

jiro feel free to correct me..