UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

[Jiro]

Oh yes...... You don't understand the art of juxtaposition...

Its about YEARS without trial/charge which is too oppose as your link - charge with trial for MONTHS... Your link is a legal to charge a woman... which GITMO prisoners doesn't.

wow...

No censor?

Really? Intereseting...

Accord one of your posts...

Immediately? It look like that US media told you so?... That's what I tried to correct you that it's not immediately but YEARS.... all what you accused me as an unsubstantiated, a misleading, and an unverifiable.

You can believe what you wish, it's your perogative. I cannot change your views or belief but the only way to change is to educate yourself. Do some research before you tell me that I'm an unsubstantiated, a misleading, and an unverifiable.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you just said! It's unintelligible!!! This does not even warrant a response from me.

Word of advice - learn what these words mean and use them properly.

 

[Macian]

dear god, get a grip you lot, it's now become a farce, you are not even sure what you are agrueing about, to amened your thoughts, the saying is, agree to disagree, not disagree to disagree.

time to move on, your getting nowhere

 

[Reba]

Are you saying that the US stories are not censored?

If the people who wrote the positive stories didn't complain about their stories being censored, then I guess they weren't. Do you have proof that their stories were censored?

Yes, I do not expect you beleive everything but to me, you beleive US Government's side over GITMO issues.

Should I believe a foreign terror suspect who has a grudge against America more than US reporters, Congressmen, and military members? Why?

Why do you prefer to believe anyone, especially non-Americans, who has an axe to grind against Americans? Is it so hard for you to believe that Americans might be right that you are blinded to all positive reports?

Of course we recieve both sides of story but miliatry's story are being censor and limit.

Is the links, I posted to quote your post is positive???

Guantanamo, The Inside Story By Yvonne Ridley

CNN.com - CNN tours Gitmo*prison camp - Jul 6, 2005

It's an exact "positive" what they said this to reporters front of the TV links.

I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

I did read your two links. In my opinion, they aren't "positive" about GITMO, if that's what you're asking.

I judge on both sides until I accept that GITMO prisoner's side of story is a true. The form of torture was being repeated by a lot of former Gitmo prisoners since 2002.

So the prisoners say. Prisoners and ex-prisoners aren't the most reliable sources of information.

 

[Reba]

Reba & CCSinned,

I don't have kind of newspaper like this... It could be that you both read trash newspapers a lot...

I don't but watch TV interviews and reliable newspapers WITHOUT censorship.

No, I never read the tabloids but it's just a joke. Surely (don't call me Shirley), you didn't take it seriously?

 

[Reba]

No, you should tell them, not me... I only correct them and their sense of humor posts because they start to bring up...I see why not to tell them back... It's bad that you don't like it.

Are you following your own rules about courteous "corrections?"

 

[Tousi]

Leibeling continues to shamelessly bite the hand that feeds her. Sad.....

 

[Reba]

dear god, get a grip you lot, it's now become a farce, you are not even sure what you are agrueing about, to amened your thoughts, the saying is, agree to disagree, not disagree to disagree.

time to move on, your getting nowhere

You're right about one thing. I had to check the heading at the top of the page to find out what the original topic was! I guess we've gone a bit astray.

 

[Jiro]

Leibeling continues to shamelessly bite the hand that feeds her. Sad.....

and shamelessly...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

precisely. If it were censored, we would not be able to read or hear anything about it. Look at Chinese government - they censored EVERYTHING... meaning you cannot google for certain information. It's BLOCKED but if we are able to see "horrible" pictures, then no it's not censored.

Of course I know about China censorship and block websites.

please refer to Reba's post about censorship. I think you do not understand what the distinction and the definition of censorship.

Please refer those, I´m with that one. Her post is an exact description about her American husband because it does the same with Americans here in Germany as well. AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Censorship I remember a few Europeans, Aussies and Canadians including myself debated with Americans over 9\11 and Iraq war issues in several threads since 2004. Accord the debate, we know that US Government hide something from their own people.

I know what is the definition of censorship. From your posts, I don´t think you get what censorship means. it mean that they suppress the movies, play, pictures, writing to prevent from public because it consider to be offensive and a threat.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

90 or 95%? Proof please.

You talk about proof? Don´t you know what the definition is "ALMOST"? Accord TV interview, many former Gitmo prisoners´s experience with all Gitmo prisoners and said that none of them said "I am a member of Al-Qaida" but said "I don´t know why I am here but they said that I am terrorist"... Accord the link I posted yesterday, that Journalist who is former Gitmo prisoner, said the same thing. I prefer to say "almost all" instead of just "all"...

The people assume that prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are guilty of being terrorists. Unfortunately, many cases are not true.

Suspects? You mean some criminals who robbed the bank, murdered somebody, etc? Yes we do that in here. Big difference is - Germany and USA have different legal system for criminals and terrorists. Warrants & Investigations are approved by secret court called FISA. Please educate yourself about FISA. The terrorists we arrested are tried at secret military court.

Yes I aware that US have different system for criminal and terrorists but Torture is a VIOLATION of international law. Charge them, free them, sentence them to death is a legal accord USA justice system, not hold them for years without justice. Here in Germany, terrorists and criminals treat equal accord justice system.

FYI - please stop calling it torture camp. It is very very insulting especially to us Americans. Please show some respect. It's called DETENTION FACILITY/CAMP

Respect? Get your facts straight..

I have no respect for those people who violated international law as they torture and dehumanization the detainees including teenager without justice. The detainees should have the right to a fair trial in a federal court of law. I beleive in justice. I do not see that it´s insult when anyone use those word "death camp" at Nazi camp because it´s truth. Should I call "inhumane treatment" camp instead of "torture camp" to make you feel better?

FYI - They are processed and charged at FISA court because they are terrorists. They cannot be tried at criminal courts because the laws are different. Please learn about our American laws before you make such accusation. It's disrespectful.

Disrespectful? See above... Sure, I respect your views and understand where you are coming from but I just don´t share them because I beleive in Justice. . Does it surprise you that many countries around the world view Americans as Terrorists? That's why I Obama for made the correct decision about closing Guantanamo Bay and very correct about Gitmo issue and clean Bush's mess USA's reputation.

is there something funny? because I don't find your post funny. It is very very disrespectful and incredibly insulting especially when you're wrong. :roll:

Thank you for link to Reba's post. You just made my job easier. Below is a portion from Reba's post.

You should ask me for specific why I laugh instead of make assumption. I showed the link which refer to your own posts which total different as you posted here.

Your post = EPIC FAIL!!!!!! You call that government censorship? You accuse us that we don't try them at court? :roll:

Don´t you know how to polite debate with agree to disagree in positive way and use common sense?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

No, I never read the tabloids but it's just a joke. Surely (don't call me Shirley), you didn't take it seriously?

Don´t you read my response post to Jiro that I know that you and CCSinned joked each other?

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Are you following your own rules about courteous "corrections?"

I would ask you the same thing... :roll:


Anyway, Do you hear my complaint that you choose to disrespect my thread to make :topic: over newspaper jokes here? Nope, but share my :topic: sense of humor with you and CCSinned...

:roll:

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I hope Bush & Co. will get porsecute because I beleive in Justice. Here is about Bush & Co. who violate the law because torture is an illegal.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

ADers,

You can believe what you wish, it's your perogative, I can't help you but the only way is change is to educate yourself before tell me that I'm wrong, shameless or whatever because I beleive in give each Gitmo detainee a fair trail...

Be honest here - Do you really have feel anything "positive" about Bush Adminsration?

 

[naisho]

A wrangler is seen at a distance reversing towards into the midst of the heated circle. As it approaches 20 meters, the engine is killed and an asian man jumps out the driver seat, slamming the door shut. The rear of the wrangler pops open. The man reaches for a heavy duffel bag and closes down the hatch. He trods towards the formerly arguing spectators observing in curiosity.


I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, but I'm all outta gum.

I'm going to ignore all the off topic stuff in this thread unless there's some reason to jest out in humor at some of it. I take no sides, as I am a wandering nomad, to only provide my raw opinion.

Chapters:
I - The news
II - Personal response to the news
III - Thoughts, criticisms
Epilogue


Chapter I

Alright, rehash of the issue.
1. Bush and Cheney stepped down the oval office.
2. Obama walked in.
3. Guantanamo is closed down.
.3a. A few former inmates and a guard talk about their experience at Guantanamo.
4. Wolfgang Kaleck appears in the show once again, having been neglected a few years ago for his accusations against a multitude of suspects for Guantanamo+Abu G crimes.
5. Everyone in the world is seeing what we are being spoon fed with.

So, Guantanamo Bay Detention Facility. A facility created in Cuba during the 70's initially to facilitate detainees that the US thought were deemed to require high surveillance.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQXGH-OFPWE"]YouTube - Frontal21: Accused of Torture?[/ame]
This is probably the 7 minute German stream that Liebling watched.
There isn't anything that should be pointed out as a flaw in the whole video, as most of it is pure global speculation. There are no officials that speak for the newscast, it only uses existing albeit cut footage from previous documentations.

Ok, moving onwards to summarize. Major point is, even the German video stated - Obama plans to move forward, instead of living in the past.

Next up, the whole waterboarding issue. It's hard to take a stand since psychologically, we're all raised differently and have different approaches to everything. Our answers on whether waterboarding is legal or illegal will never cease to come to an end, quite simply due to our nature. Whether you think it is OK or not, your choice is respected, but don't call out against another person's view on it, they are entitled to their own.

After waterboarding, we come to the fact that a couple of Guantanamo Detainees release their personal experience with the camp. (This is in the provided supplementary news articles, not in the news documentary)
This is good, and quite a bit interesting. It's a testimony by two prisoners of Guantanamo, so it is first hand information.

This pretty much concludes much of the scenario and brings everyone who hasn't figured out what is going on, up to speed.


Chapter II.

Obama's take on moving onwards:
I hope this can apply to everyone else. For those who are against torture, it's time to move on. Whatever happened at Guantanamo isn't going to magically reverse and transflux back in time to fix itself.. Better to focus on other issues at hand, mainly future prison/detention camps and see if it still continues. There's nothing to gain from crying over spilled milk, unless you just want to point some fingers at people. Keep in mind, some don't like being pointed at.


Reflection of the German News overall:
Three words: Richard Nixon, why?

That wasn't necessary. What Nixon did isn't the same thing as Bush did. They're putting the apple in the same pile as the oranges, and I don't think that was completely necessary.. Furthermore, people who don't progress or have a reasonable background of thinking will start being like "Oh my, look at Bush, he's about to be as bad as Nixon!" (even though Nixon really didn't do much aside from being paranoid..) They chastised Nixon. They chastised Clinton. It is no surprise they now want to chastise Bush.


Waterboarding reflection - Case point in check: I got hit as a child from my dad for doing wrong things. I wouldn't go as far as to call it torture, but I did end up bleeding and having to confessed to the point of the crime I committed (which, I don't see a need for going into details here). Point here is, I took some pain for the wrongdoings I've done, and I don't see why some other people can't afford to experience the same. Note that this doesn't mean I intend to do this to my children or anything like that, incase someone attempts to launch a fallacious attack.


Musings of two Guantanamo Prisoners:
There is information pertaining to how a few individuals were treated, but do not accuse the whole prison under "Guilt by association".
What two men experienced does not pertain to the whole prison. If you observe the pictures Reba posted, and do not think negatively of it. I would say Guantanamo isn't the absolute zero, take a dump on the floor, Sergeants forcing their prisoners to do slave work while they watch overhead with a rifle. You can easily observe that there is some form of "care" for these prisoners. If anything, that looks like pretty good treatment to have a school, an exercise yard, a library of things to do. I don't think even some of the prisons in the USA have this.
Next thing is, the ramblings of two men (who most likely have done something wrong, immoral, and unjustifiable) who were previously charged with committing a federal offense enough to get you on their side? It's easy to find fault in people who are not related to you, and it's harder to accept that people related to you can share the same faults.

Say Herr Heinrich Lutipold Himmler was alive today and just released from Berlin's prison. He defiles the jail, commenting that it was horrible, they tortured him and set the dogs loose, cigarette burn marks, waterboarded his butt.
Are you, say if any of us were a German citizen take what herr Himmler has to say for himself?
Remember and recall, Himmler is partially responsible for masterminding a part of what happened to the Jews. He was, and probably still is apart of the Nazi. Are you going to drop the ball and agree with das Himmler's response, and without thinking twice, going to start blaming Germany's prisons? They've got to have torture in there as well. Do we start blaming Herr Horst Koeheler? Don't forget, a torture scandal happened in German juvie prisons as well in 2006.
Look both ways before you cross the road!


Chapter III

Why so highly classified and confidential?
The information that the agents at Guantanamo retrieved from the detainees are classified. We, as John and Jane Does, won't be knowing what's in it for a good amount of time. And we don't have a reason to need to know. It's not our business, because frankly, we currently don't work in the US military.
Probably by the time your 10 year old child is 70, these documents will probably become declassified, only to be amidst skeptical scrutiny by some person in the future who has nothing better to do than criticize about the past.


Bush:
Ok, he's bad, I get it like a black and white picture.
Everyone likes to point a finger blaming game. However, please don't point at Georgie w. Bush to represent the rest of America.
George W. Bush =/= the person who I thought shared my personal and moral values.
In 2000, He only represents the 271 state electoral votes that admitted him. Which was 50,456,002 (~50%) of voters at that time. That 50% of people who voted for Bush, he represents them. He doesn't represent the rest of us who did not vote for him. This applies for 2004 as well. If he gets to go to law and court, I'm glad you could be happy that he does, but frankly, I don't care about the outcome if you can keep your criticizing of America limited to the Bush Admin and those who supported it.
I did say that he doesn't represent the rest of the 50% who didn't vote for him, right?

Because, I can get offended as well when someone calls Bush "America". What Bush did was "American". Sorry. Bush is not all of America!


The art of torturing:
Course, anyone with a functional brain can understand that when someone screams in pain or agony, over what another is doing to them, something is not right. There's books on Amazon pertaining to Chinese water "torture", Ninja methods of torture, I think I have that paperback sitting on my shelf of Bruce Lee books.
However, little is going to be done to prevent future acts of "torturism". It's been around for thousands and thousands of years. If you think banning all forms of torture will help save the world, you're asking for a trip to your neurologist to see if the brain is working properly. You can't change what the past did, we have it here now and must learn to live with it.
Anything that is attempted to get suppressed in our world, never does. There's always some [insert name of third peace party organization here] just around the corner that will get erected into reality once they have the time.


There's probably more I could add, but I decided to cut it short and end here. When I start realizing I sound like Abe, I stop posting in hopes of not letting the old fool in my head get a hold of my thoughts.


Epilogue
I'm just here to provide criticism, comments, and feedback that can pertain to this thread to steer it back on topic in hopes of it not getting locked over bickering issues. I stand from a point of neutrality where I feel it's better to move on and discuss the actual problems being faced rather than mull over what's came and gone. I want to resurrect the old debate of being on topic, people getting a point across, and not attacking back with stuff unrelated to the actual issue.
And for people to realize when they've gone too far.
And for people to accept OR respect another's decision.

With that said and done, I bode the coming posts good luck.


PS. Be on topic. Jokes are fine, just don't drag it too far imo. Some may not have a sense of humor, others may not realize what's going on. This is coming from me, mister sarcastic. On the other hand, if you can't handle a joke.. you're hanging out with the wrong people.



Forget the Jeep, beam me up, Scotty!

 

[Jiro]

ADers,

You can believe what you wish, it's your perogative, I can't help you but the only way is change is to educate yourself before tell me that I'm wrong, shameless or whatever because I beleive in give each Gitmo detainee a fair trail...

I can't help you to educate yourself about the REAL REALITY that you don't want to see. The terrorists are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from common criminals. They are ruthless and they don't play by the rules. We have to adjust our ways to handle it because they have gotten much more sophisticated and ruthless. Our legal system is NOT designed to deal with terrorists. That's why the Patriot Acts came into play in 2001. Granted - Patriot Acts is a serious breach of the Constitution but it was necessary at that time and I supported it but it's been too long and this is 2009. I no longer supported it.

Be honest here - Do you really have feel anything "positive" about Bush Adminsration?

Yes. ABSOLUTELY. I do not agree with most of Bush Administration's way but there's just one positive thing from Bush Administration. He made our National Security/Defense much safer. Look at US Airways Flight 1549. SPEEDY RESPONSE! Granted - it came with price... it pissed off a lot of people (especially foreigners) but I don't give a shit of what they think because this is my country and this is my home. I don't live in France, UK, China, etc. so I don't give a shit about what they do to protect their citizens but i can say that our way is much more humane and lawful without sacrificing so much of our freedom for a piece of mind.

Please refer to my post in other thread about Bush Administration.

I don't like to say this but I do support torture. It is too complicated to delve in it but I recognize the importance of it. This 9/11 and Bush Administration really opens your eye on the whole new level of complexity of this terrorism issue...

the question is - at what cost are you willing to pay for to stay safe from terrorists... so that you can have a happy cheery life, raise family, teach your kid to ride bike, etc. without worrying about somebody blowing up your mall or flying into your building?

that's why... if there's ONE thing that I'm appreciative of from Bush Administration.. it's President Bush making incredibly impossible decisions that no Presidents would dare to do... and even me... and even he knew that he will be shitfaced with this for decades... that's to torture terrorists for vital information to keep us safe. But I'm sad that it got way out of hands and it went too far to the point that it's disgusting.

 

[Jiro]

I hope Bush & Co. will get porsecute because I beleive in Justice. Here is about Bush & Co. who violate the law because torture is an illegal.

Who is Co.? Corporation? :scratch:

 

[Jiro]

Of course I know about China censorship and block websites.

yes correct. They blocked websites. Now that's GOVERNMENT CENSORSHIP. Answer this question - Does USA government block websites?

Please refer those, I´m with that one. Her post is an exact description about her American husband because it does the same with Americans here in Germany as well. AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Censorship

for sharing that link. You just proved my point. From Mrs. Bucket's post-

Canadians simply went across the border to get all the information. Anyone who brought any related materials from USA to Canada would be arrested.

Looks like USA government doesn't censor at all!

I remember a few Europeans, Aussies and Canadians including myself debated with Americans over 9\11 and Iraq war issues in several threads since 2004. Accord the debate, we know that US Government hide something from their own people.

I know what is the definition of censorship. From your posts, I don´t think you get what censorship means. it mean that they suppress the movies, play, pictures, writing to prevent from public because it consider to be offensive and a threat.

huh? If we can see pictures of Gitmo Camp and read the stories that YOU POSTED, then NO IT'S NOT CENSORSHIP. If we were in China, we will NOT be able to see the pictures or read your links.

PLEASE RE-EDUCATE YOURSELF ON CENSORSHIP.

 

[Jiro]

You talk about proof? Don´t you know what the definition is "ALMOST"? Accord TV interview, many former Gitmo prisoners´s experience with all Gitmo prisoners and said that none of them said "I am a member of Al-Qaida" but said "I don´t know why I am here but they said that I am terrorist"... Accord the link I posted yesterday, that Journalist who is former Gitmo prisoner, said the same thing. I prefer to say "almost all" instead of just "all"...

Please stick with the facts, not assumptions. again - proof please?

The people assume that prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are guilty of being terrorists. Unfortunately, many cases are not true.

No - we DETAINED them at Guantanamo Bay so that we can INVESTIGATE them and then FORMALLY CHARGE them at military tribunal courts & FISA. EXACTLY same way as you Germans handled the criminals/terrorists (except our proceedings are secret)

Yes I aware that US have different system for criminal and terrorists but Torture is a VIOLATION of international law. Charge them, free them, sentence them to death is a legal accord USA justice system, not hold them for years without justice. Here in Germany, terrorists and criminals treat equal accord justice system.

THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE DOING!!!! What do you mean hold them for years? Do you have any idea how long the legal proceeding takes? It's not an overnight thing. Lot of criminal cases takes years. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

Respect? Get your facts straight..

I have no respect for those people who violated international law as they torture and dehumanization the detainees including teenager without justice. The detainees should have the right to a fair trial in a federal court of law. I beleive in justice. I do not see that it´s insult when anyone use those word "death camp" at Nazi camp because it´s truth. Should I call "inhumane treatment" camp instead of "torture camp" to make you feel better?

WTF? you're comparing our Detention Camps with your country's Nazi death camps? and you work for USA Military?

*SMH* It's disgusting to me. absolutely disgraceful.

Disrespectful? See above... Sure, I respect your views and understand where you are coming from but I just don´t share them because I beleive in Justice. . Does it surprise you that many countries around the world view Americans as Terrorists? That's why I Obama for made the correct decision about closing Guantanamo Bay and very correct about Gitmo issue and clean Bush's mess USA's reputation.

Ask me if I care about the world's views. They didn't have 4 planes hijacked and flown toward to 2 major financial towers, military headquarter, and ALMOST White House so they need to STFU because we bailed out their ass many times. Why spit at us now when you all supported us and our actions after 9/11?

Don´t you know how to polite debate with agree to disagree in positive way and use common sense?

and you work for US Military? oh wait... guess what! You're not censored by them when you type up these dissenting posts on US Military Base with US Military computer!!!

LOL!!! Your accusation of USA government censorship = EPIC FAIL!

 

[naisho]

Liebling, just dropping a note on what I can see Jiro is trying to say to you about the censorship.

There are two ways of depicting information that is blocked to the public, this is for USA only. Reba said it earlier in the other post she replied to me.

1) Geheimhaltungsstufe
In our military, any information that is under geheimhaltungsstufe "geheim einstufend" - only the military knows about it, and will not tell us. We are free to make any articles, news, ideas and thoughts about these "geheimnisse" that they do not wish us to know the details about. We can say anything we want about these secrets, from our own opinions. They will not stop us from making opinions.


2) Zensur (not school grades, but of "Informations kontrolle")
This means anything that we know - newspaper, tv, internet, mail, phone, everything -- about a particular subject is "absperren" by the government, "assistieren" by the military. Any news or info that comes out is blocked as well. I see you understand this already. But there is a part 2. If this Guantanamo Bay subject was censored - we can't see those pictures, pictures of actual Guantanamo waterboarding, the story of the Guantanamo prisoners. These articles would all be blocked, if they were posted, they would get taken down and our government would arrest them.

Currently, Guatanamo is not censored because we can see these articles and pictures, story from the prisoners, and guard.