UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

[Liebling:-)))]

I'll explain why I'm overlooking most of your posts.

So you worked for US Military who was under President Bush's command... and paid by Bush Administration for 8 years... Let me ask you this - what about a secretary who doesn't believe in torture and killing of innocents but worked for Nazi Government? was that wrong?

It's great that Nuremberg trail do not see Nazi's secretaries as crime because they work for Nazi Government, not like what US authorities accused Bin Laden's driver as a terrorist suspect because he work for Bin Laden... A detainee tried to convince US authorites that he earn the money to support his family... He was released after years in Gitmo camp and broke man...

btw - you claimed to respect justice system. Why can't you understand & respect our justice system for terrorists? Now do you understand why I'm overlooking your posts? I've never felt any more disgusted than this... this is far far worse than what I feel about USA Government dropping the charges against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

I have no respect for those people who break the law because they did is a violate the law. It's criminal... I'm not alone who view the same thing...

Phillip Butler, Ph.D., commander, USN (ret.) wrote:

To Support and Defend: A Message to US Senators and Representatives

t r u t h o u t | To Support and Defend: A Message to US Senators and Representatives

You need to close your mouth and stop posting any further about this issue because your posts are, IMO, flaming and trolling.

I do not intend to do that but only share the fact where I get from. Don't you know how to agree to disagree?

It's not insult and flaming when I share the news, I learn from TV and newspaper outside of America where I live?

If you don't like to accept the fact where I got from then don't post here.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling, i really appreciate your views and posts everything. is that true you work for US military base in germany?? if so, how do they treat you over there? are they nice to you? just wonder.

Yes, I work US military base in Germany for over 23 years. Oh yes, many Americans, I know are nice and friendly people.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Criminal happens to be in USA that we are able to collect the evidenes right there because we are in USA already. While the terrorists did bad thing in the other country/countries that we usa have to FLY over there and unfamiliar with the atomsphere where we can collect the evidences and try to deal in the differen way of dealing with their OWN cultures. They let us to pry around in their countries by collecting the evidences are not EASY.

that's what Jiro meant about between the criminal and terrorists that takes procedures differently. USA attitudes toward to USA criminal that we know their tendiences of doing etc while we usa are unfamilar with not us citizen like terrorists with their different languages and trying to know their cultures.

jiro feel free to correct me..

Yes, I know what Jiro is saying but still is: terrorists should treat fair trial as criminals - They should collect the proof against terrorist suspects if they are really terrorists or not but they doesn't... US authorities "rewarded" Pakaistan authorities between $3,000 and $25,000 to accuse muslim/arab as terrorist suspects and took them to Afganafisan... torture them for years and then again took them to Gitmo camp and torture them for years without charge/trail is painly wrong... It's crime...

How do they know a person is a terrorist before they accuse her/him as a terrorist ?

Criminals, they have DNA, etc and can focus/collect the proofs... - I know it's hard to focus/collect the proof against terrorist becuase there're no DNA... Is it right to torture wrong person for years then release the person without charge/trial? Have you read the whole at Reba's another thread?

 

[Reba]

... We (EU and other countries) know Bush Admin. did illegal.

So why did you continue working for him? Didn't that bother your conscience?

 

[Frisky Feline]

Yes, I know what Jiro is saying but still is: terrorists should treat fair trial as criminals - They should collect the proof against terrorist suspects if they are really terrorists or not but they doesn't... US authorities "rewarded" Pakaistan authorities between $3,000 and $25,000 to accuse muslim/arab as terrorist suspects and took them to Afganafisan... torture them for years and then again took them to Gitmo camp and torture them for years without charge/trail is painly wrong... It's crime...

How do they know a person is a terrorist before they accuse her/him as a terrorist ?

Criminals, they have DNA, etc and can focus/collect the proofs... - I know it's hard to focus/collect the proof against terrorist becuase there're no DNA... Is it right to torture wrong person for years then release the person without charge/trial? Have you read the whole at Reba's another thread?

i didnt read the whole of it what reba's threads. but i have heard or read soemwhere else in the past. i understand what you mean.. unfortunately, things seem to get out of control.. the other countries accuse amercian and amercian accuse terrorists and things get messy. Everything s in messy situations worse and worse. obviously everyone is in pissy moods at each other like cats and dogs. These people know their jobs that are at risk and yet they went for it. i gotta admit that i am worried how obama handles it since he has no experiences and become a fluffy soft heart then we will end up get hurt from other countries that they are in our HOME! The history will keep going on forever. i dont have much to say about it.

 

[Jiro]

Yes, I work US military base in Germany for over 23 years. Oh yes, many Americans, I know are nice and friendly people.

:roll: and the way your posts are constructed.... feels more like a year or two. Why is it that Reba and I know better than you and I have NEVER even worked for US Military in my life. :scratch:

over 23 years... I see... you should have known the complexity of this issue MUCH better than us but apparently not :roll:

 

[Reba]

This is an exact reason why Obama closed the Gitmo camp ...

The detention center at GITMO has not been closed.

The people I know at work, they said the same thing... They pissed on Bush Admin. for hurt USA's reputation.

So you're not the only hypocrite working there. How nice. You can all complain about your former boss together during working hours.

.... If you don't like me to use those word "torture camp" then you should refain those word "death camp" as well.

GITMO was never built for the purposes of torture. The Nazi camps were built for death.

 

[Jiro]

We know for a long time that Bush see after Iraq oil, not Saddam and "WMD". Why do he send his soliders to Iraq war for when Bush KNEW in the beginning that Saddam don't have WMD? It's sad that his lies drove thousands US and Iraqi including children to death...

I'm sorry but do you have a proof that Bush wants oil from Iraq? I don't see how because we're paying for Iraq out of our pocket. EPIC FAIL accusation! Bush admitted that he made faulty decision based on faulty information.

There're no Nixon vs Bush but remind us about Nixon and his watergate scandal that Nixon faces the consequene... why can't they do the same to Bush for war crime then?

I'm sorry but here's a little American history for you - Nixon NEVER saw a day in court to face the consequences because he resigned and he was later pardoned by President Ford. He was an O-K President for a while there. If you like to learn about Nixon Administration especially about Watergate scandal, the movie - Frost/Nixon just came out in theaters. It's more of a documentary than movie.

EU including Germany tried to prosecute Bush and his Admin. for war crime in 2006 but no successful but they were being denied... We (EU and other countries) know Bush Admin. did illegal.

You know why EU including Germany failed? Because THEY HAD NO PROOF! Neither do you! If Bush Administration was REALLY doing something illegal, then why aren't they in jail? Why isn't Obama Administration going after him? Because THERE IS NO PROOF! Granted - it was borderline illegal but it's not what you all think.

 

[Reba]

*cynically* Here is my opposite reply to your hypocritical post...
Why can't you say this to Americans who don't support Iraq war and also anti-Bush as well, why did they continue to work to pay tax to him because they know that Bush spend their taxes to Iraq war... Why just me? Hypocritical!!!! :roll:

Why just you? Because you are the one posting here who complains about her boss. They aren't. Also, Americans have the right to vote out the leaders with whom they disagree. Also, paying taxes is required by law. Working "for the man" is not.

Paying taxes to the government is not the same as accepting money from the government.

Trying to deflect my question so you don't have to give an honest answer won't work.

If I live in America, and I beleived that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would leave USA because I do not accept to pay tax to support him... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush then?

Some ADers have posted that. They posted, "if America is so wrong, you can leave." But how does that excuse what you do?

If someone continue to live in America when they know Bush Admin. support illegal war... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush supporters? I think that is clear enough.

See above.

Not just one former prisoner but MANY detainees who have scars of cigarette burnt, dog bites... electric shock, etc. Many detainess reported the same thing about form of torture.

Do they have proof who caused the injuries, when they caused, under what circumstances were they caused, and where they were caused? No.

Well, you remind me of my past... would you call me a liar if I tell you about my bad experience with my former boss and false witness at 20 years ago? I was being attacked by my boss over that proof paper, (my former boss & I were alone in the office) for tried to take the paper away from me to prevent me from foward the proof to Chain of command.. I ran to work council and accompanied me to doctor straight way. I was stay home for long 6 weeks... Guess what, I lost case at court because they beleive witness more than my scar... and I have no hand against him because he did his successful to attack me to take paper away from me... (long story about the paper...).

I'm very sorry about your awful experience but what does that have to do with the detainees? Do you compare yourself to war-time terrorists detainees? I wouldn't make that comparison.

The only relevancy I can see is that your situation shows that it is hard to make a case on the basis of scars. A scar by itself, without other forensic corroboration or testimony is not enough to prove a case.

 

[Jiro]

This is an exact reason why Obama closed the Gitmo camp because US soliders and interrogators who work in Gitmo camp, treat detainees inhumanity is an embarrassment and insult USA's reputation and also world as well.

The people I know at work, they said the same thing... They pissed on Bush Admin. for hurt USA's reputation.

Can you show me the proof that Obama has closed Gitmo Camp because I have not heard such thing. As far as I'm concerned - it's still open.

It's also embarrassment to Germans as well over Nazi camp in the past... They accept the fact that the world use those word "Nazi death camp". The people never stop to talk about "Nazi death camp" for over 60 years... I have no problem to accept it because it's true.... If you don't like me to use those word "torture camp" then you should refain those word "death camp" as well.

huh? refrain? Why? The Nuremburg Trial, Holocaust Survivors, etc. called it Death Camp. Technically it was the death camp because it's what it was designed for. Why did it have gas chamber and furnace? to make a brick-oven pizza for Jews? :roll:

 

[Reba]

...How do they know a person is a terrorist before they accuse her/him as a terrorist ?

Criminals, they have DNA, etc and can focus/collect the proofs... - I know it's hard to focus/collect the proof against terrorist becuase there're no DNA...

You're right that they can't depend on DNA. DNA does NOT prove all kinds of crime. For example, "white collar" crimes very rarely involve DNA; proof for them is usually obtained by accounting and computer forensics. Most criminal cases depend on circumstantial evidence more than DNA. People watch too many CSI shows to think that DNA is infallible proof of wrongdoing or innocence.

Is it right to torture wrong person for years then release the person without charge/trial? Have you read the whole at Reba's another thread?

Do you have proof that anyone was tortured "for years" by Americans at GITMO?

 

[Jiro]

*cynically* Here is my opposite reply to your hypocritical post...

Why can't you say this to Americans who don't support Iraq war and also anti-Bush as well, why did they continue to work to pay tax to him because they know that Bush spend their taxes to Iraq war... Why just me? Hypocritical!!!! :roll:

If I live in America, and I beleived that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would leave USA because I do not accept to pay tax to support him... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush then?

If someone continue to live in America when they know Bush Admin. support illegal war...... Why can't you say this to American anti-Bush supporters? I think that is clear enough.

wow..... I don't know where to begin... First of all - Our tax money does not go into Bush's pocket. we American citizens pay tax for many things - civil service, emergency service, Coast Guard, education, road, etc. If we don't like Bush - we stage protests and that's what we did. and you? You woke up every morning, feeling happy and you went to work for US Military no problem at all while so-called torture (as you claimed) is going on. That's precisely what secretary of Nazi regime did. You know what's it called? Hypocrisy and Ignorance. That's you.

Here's one thing you don't understand clearly enough. I do not work for Bush Administration. I do not get paid by Bush Administration. YOU DID. The BLOOD is on your hand! My conscience is clean. Yours is not.

Not just one former prisoner but MANY detainees who have scars of cigarette burnt, dog bites... electric shock, etc. Many detainess reported the same thing about form of torture.

and your point is.......? How about this - detainees have scars from fighting with other detainees or biting themselves or hurt themselves.

Well, you remind me of my past... would you call me a liar if I tell you about my bad experience with my former boss and false witness at 20 years ago? I was being attacked by my boss over that proof paper, (my former boss & I were alone in the office) for tried to take the paper away from me to prevent me from foward the proof to Chain of command.. I ran to work council and accompanied me to doctor straight way. I was stay home for long 6 weeks... Guess what, I lost case at court because they beleive witness more than my scar... and I have no hand against him because he did his successful to attack me to take paper away from me.. (long story about the paper...).

I'm very sorry to hear that and no I would not call you a liar but I wouldn't completely believe you. I only see evidence. it's how it works in real world. It's called "he-said, she-said." Now you understand why you must be careful with what you say? You need proof to back it up and you had none. (**hint - I'm not talking about your incident)

 

[Jiro]

ADers would disagree with you on this. Have you read the whole of thread, Reba created?

We beleive in justice. The terrorists and criminals both should treat equal if they have proof against them for what they commit.

Many Muslim/Arabs were being "arrest" by Pakistani authorities to give them to US authorities for money... the people who were being accused for USS Cole attack in 2000 was arrested by Pakistani authorities in 2002 and keep them for YEARS without trail/charge. We can't prove that it's really them who were responsible for USS Cole attack or 9/11 becuase Bush Admin. did not do anything with them in legal way but just keep them and released them for years then leave everything to Obama to clean up... Why can't Bush Admin. do something because the families of victims wait for long 7 years for justice?

Can you please explain me why Muslim/Arab Journalists and doctors were also accussed as a terrorist suspect by US authorities and then keep them in Gitmo camp years for?

huh? <looking around in this thread> :scratch: You are the only one in here speaking badly of this situation. jasin doesn't count because he's just a troller & flamer for living. You are testing Reba's and my patience... and it's wearing thin. very thin.

Lady - we all believe in justice but it doesn't work the same for terrorists like it does for criminals. You tell me - how do we go into Yemen, Syria, Iran, or Pakistan to collect evidence? They don't like us and they don't want to help us.

 

[Jiro]

It's great that Nuremberg trail do not see Nazi's secretaries as crime because they work for Nazi Government, not like what US authorities accused Bin Laden's driver as a terrorist suspect because he work for Bin Laden... A detainee tried to convince US authorites that he earn the money to support his family... He was released after years in Gitmo camp and broke man...

wow..... you sympathize with that criminal more than our soldiers especially the one you work with at US Military base? absolutely insulting....

I do not intend to do that but only share the fact where I get from. Don't you know how to agree to disagree?

It's not insult and flaming when I share the news, I learn from TV and newspaper outside of America where I live?

yes it's insulting and flaming when you have no proof. Do you know how to debate without hypocrisy and ignorance? beside.... media, tv, and newspapers have agenda. Why don't you listen stories from soldiers?

If you don't like to accept the fact where I got from then don't post here.

If you don't like to accept the fact that Bush Administration is doing these horrible things, then don't work for US Military and get paid by Bush Administration. Mind you - we have been doing it for centuries. You just don't hear about it yet.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

:roll: and the way your posts are constructed.... feels more like a year or two. Why is it that Reba and I know better than you and I have NEVER even worked for US Military in my life. :scratch:

over 23 years... I see... you should have known the complexity of this issue MUCH better than us but apparently not :roll:

Please re-read Frisky Feline´s question about my colleage relationship with Americans.

Yeah, it´s you... You can say whatever you want... you really have no idea what you are saying... Honestly...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The detention center at GITMO has not been closed.

wow, US meida didn´t tell you that Obama signed to close the GITMO within year?

So you're not the only hypocrite working there. How nice. You can all complain about your former boss together during working hours.

No, I do not complaint about my former boss because I don´t work together with him or don´t work in GITMO camp. :roll:

It´s hypocrite of you to accused Clinton negative (crimes, illegal, etc) in MANY posts and defend Bush, no matter how and what he did wrong...

GITMO was never built for the purposes of torture. The Nazi camps were built for death.

Yes, that´s right until Bush took office and authorize the torture after 9/11.........

No, The Nazi camp was never built for the purposes of death until 1941/42.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Yep, bush is in a totally pissy mood after 9/11 and lost his marble.

 

[Jiro]

wow, US meida didn´t tell you that Obama signed to close the GITMO within year?

Look - you do not understand. Gitmo Camp IS NOT CLOSED. It's STILL open. Obama SIGNED the executive order to have it closed WITHIN ONE YEAR but it's NOT closed as you claimed.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I'm sorry but do you have a proof that Bush wants oil from Iraq? I don't see how because we're paying for Iraq out of our pocket. EPIC FAIL accusation! Bush admitted that he made faulty decision based on faulty information.

Your post tell itself that you didn´t know much about US polities... See? Many countries around the world know about US polities more than you know... CENSORSHIP....

I'm sorry but here's a little American history for you - Nixon NEVER saw a day in court to face the consequences because he resigned and he was later pardoned by President Ford. He was an O-K President for a while there. If you like to learn about Nixon Administration especially about Watergate scandal, the movie - Frost/Nixon just came out in theaters. It's more of a documentary than movie.

I never said that Nixon went to court. I really have no idea where you get it from... Please show me where I said that Nixon went to court? I only said that Nixon face consequences over watergate scandal... They CAN impeach him but he choose to resign to aviod impeachment. Don´t you know that?

Don´t you know that many Americans want to impeach Bush?

You know why EU including Germany failed? Because THEY HAD NO PROOF! Neither do you! If Bush Administration was REALLY doing something illegal, then why aren't they in jail? Why isn't Obama Administration going after him? Because THERE IS NO PROOF! Granted - it was borderline illegal but it's not what you all think.

You can say what you want and what you beleive in...

 

[Jiro]

Your post tell itself that you didn´t know much about US polities... See? Many countries around the world know about US polities more than you know... CENSORSHIP....

so why are you working for US Military? BTW - if they know more about US politic than us, then why are we the world superpower? why are they always seeking for our help? boom goes the headshot......

I never said that Nixon went to court. I really have no idea where you get it from... Please show me where I said that Nixon went to court? I only said that Nixon face consequences over watergate scandal... They CAN impeach him but he choose to resign to aviod impeachment. Don´t you know that?

and what consequence is that? Resigning is not really facing the consequence. Facing the consequence means going to trial. Do not invent the English term the way you want but I'm sure you misspoke.

Don´t you know that many Americans want to impeach Bush?

yea so? I'm one of them. At least I don't work for him or get paid by Bush Administration like you.

You can say what you want and what you beleive in...

and same for you. I wait for truth and facts to come out and that's going to take a long time.