The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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BecLak said:
The only ones who are capable of speaking effortlessly are the ones who have 'normal' hearing or late-deafened. The late-deafened however will eventually find it an effort to speak.

Any other person is in denial. Show me that example Kokonut to prove me wrong or forever hold your peace on this. If other ADers can show me examples to support your comment - let's say 10 altogether, then I will stand corrected.
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I asked you a question earlier, what does it mean to speak effortlessly?
 
kokonut said:
I asked you a question earlier, what does it mean to speak effortlessly?
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DeafCaroline, deafskeptic, Shel90 and myself have all given examples of how it takes effort for us to speak no matter how well we may be able to speak in view of others. To speak effortlessly would be without all that. To speak effortlessly is to speak without effort.
 
BecLak said:
DeafCaroline, deafskeptic, Shel90 and myself have all given examples of how it takes effort for us to speak no matter how well we may be able to speak in view of others. To speak effortlessly would be without all that. To speak effortlessly is to speak without effort.
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Like this one?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulDYxyv4KQ&cc=1]YouTube - ‪Vint Cerf's Top YouTube Videos‬‏[/ame]
 
BecLak said:
How may I ask does this prove your point?

Ok, to make it easier on you. Can you honestly say that the children in the video at the start of this thread could be said to be speaking effortlessly, even with CIs?
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You said those with hearing loss "That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing." Mr. Cerf was born with a hearing loss and he speaks effortlessly.

The children in those videos (two parts) are in fact speaking effortlessly. Yes, I am hearing them speak and talk just like other hearing kids in an effortless manner. In fact, they are speaking with an Australian accent. And your point is what?
 
kokonut said:
You said those with hearing loss "That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing." Mr. Cerf was born with a hearing loss and he speaks effortlessly.

The children in those videos (two parts) are in fact speaking effortlessly. Yes, I am hearing them speak and talk just like other hearing kids in an effortless manner. In fact, they are speaking with an Australian accent. And your point is what?
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You may say it 'sounds' ok, but I can tell in both these examples just by reading their mouths and facial expressions.

1. Vin Cerf - yes, he speaks very fast, but he is slurring his words. (btw, I don't see any mention of him being hoh in his write-ups)

2. The children in the video - I am Australian. I can recognise Australians. By the way the children are positioning their lips and pausing, you can easily tell they are using effort to speak.

I saw an interview with the real Sue Thomas (on Youtube) and she displayed the same tell-tale signs. Isn't she supposed to have clear and concise speech and an expert in lipreading? (Now I am not criticising her, I admire her very much for her achievements, yet since she is considered one of the best at what she does, even she has these tell-tale signs). So does Deanne Bray who plays her in the TV series.
 
save your breath Beclak, kokonut is lotonuts, waste of time arguing with someone who refuses to see sign, wants to hear but above all is a stark raving mad manic just like this picture below;
avatar15169_4.gif

and he suffers from modusoperandititis
 
Wirelessly posted

Grummer said:
save your breath Beclak, kokonut is lotonuts, waste of time arguing with someone who refuses to see sign, wants to hear but above all is a stark raving mad manic just like this picture below;
avatar15169_4.gif

and he suffers from modusoperandititis
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:) ok.
 
Grummer said:
save your breath Beclak, kokonut is lotonuts, waste of time arguing with someone who refuses to see sign, wants to hear but above all is a stark raving mad manic just like this picture below;
avatar15169_4.gif

and he suffers from modusoperandititis
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Ha ha That gif was very old like in 2003.
 
Making a sweeping claim that people born with a hearing loss are unable to speak effortlessly later on simply doesn't cut it because there are already examples of kids and adults who can do that.

This isn't about the subject on signing. The subject was brought up recently about on speaking effortlessly by people with hearing loss, in this case children. The point is that some can do it effortlessly and without even thinking as it comes naturally to them, some require much effort to speak with proper diction and while others have intelligible speech. Speaking effortlessly requires training and practice in the very beginning. That part we know. In the video children and a teenager with cochlear implant talked effortlessly because it was 2nd nature for them to talk. To them it was natural talking. I'm making the acknowledgement that it's the early exposure on talking and making the proper enunciation during the early years on speech development. No one ever got on a bike as a child for the first time and rode it flawlessly. The same with speech, it took practice. And before you know it, it becomes 2nd nature. We saw clear examples of that in my recent links to a videos of deaf children with CIs doing this. Also, a video of an hoh adult in his later years speaking effortlessly.

Granted, I'm not speaking that this is true in ALL cases but there are indeed deaf/hh people out there who can and do speak effortlessly and I have provided video examples of such.
 
kokonut said:
Making a sweeping claim that people born with a hearing loss are unable to speak effortlessly later on simply doesn't cut it because there are already examples of kids and adults who can do that.

This isn't about the subject on signing. The subject was brought up recently about on speaking effortlessly by people with hearing loss, in this case children. The point is that some can do it effortlessly and without even thinking as it comes naturally to them, some require much effort to speak with proper diction and while others have intelligible speech. Speaking effortlessly requires training and practice in the very beginning. That part we know. In the video children and a teenager with cochlear implant talked effortlessly because it was 2nd nature for them to talk. To them it was natural talking. I'm making the acknowledgement that it's the early exposure on talking and making the proper enunciation during the early years on speech development. No one ever got on a bike as a child for the first time and rode it flawlessly. The same with speech, it took practice. And before you know it, it becomes 2nd nature. We saw clear examples of that in my recent links to a videos of deaf children with CIs doing this. Also, a video of an hoh adult in his later years speaking effortlessly.

Granted, I'm not speaking that this is true in ALL cases but there are indeed deaf/hh people out there who can and do speak effortlessly and I have provided video examples of such.
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I think your examples of people who speak effortlessly are so far and few in between that you should concede/acknowledge that it isn't true for the vast, vast majority.
 
Tousi said:
I think your examples of people who speak effortlessly are so far and few in between that you should concede/acknowledge that it isn't true for the vast, vast majority.
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Granted, I'm not determining the breadth of this ability and already acknowledged that in a previous post. What I provided was one video proving false that that ALL people with hearing loss are unable to speak effortlessly. That was my point. I've already conceded that not everyone can do that but that there are cases where many can and do speak effortless and has become 2nd nature for them
 
BecLak said:
DeafCaroline, deafskeptic, Shel90 and myself have all given examples of how it takes effort for us to speak no matter how well we may be able to speak in view of others. To speak effortlessly would be without all that. To speak effortlessly is to speak without effort.
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Again, think about this. You can't breath without effort, your heart wouldn't beat without effort. No being could 'do' anything without effort. But most people can breathe without actively thinking about the mechanics they will use to do so, many can speak without considering the mechanics of expressing themselves. To speak effortlessly means to do so "without difficulty, with little or no effort" (that's the the definition of "effortlessly).

BecLak said:
Going by the dictionary definition of fluency, no d/Deaf/hoh child or adult could ever be fluent in spoken language, we are just masters at fooling people by appearing to be so.
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Beclak, I understand that you are intelligent and well-spoken -- you've mentioned it often enough. But your point that even you struggle with spoken language doesn't prove that no other d/Deaf person can ever use the language fluently. And your point that some d/Deaf neither speak like natives nor have perfect diction doesn't matter a bit: fluency requires neither, fluency is flow and ease and speed, the ability to use the language without consciously working through the mechanics of expressing it. You can be fluent and have any kind of accent, regional or deaf, articulation is not a factor.

My daughter and several of her young friends may not sound like your average hearing 5-6 year olds -- although quite a few of them do -- but they are still fluent. They aren't thinking about how to pronounce words, how to move their faces, place their tongues, how much air to blow out -- when they speak. They are thinking about the enormous wave they just saw and how far up their body it got and what almost happened when the water pulled back down the beach as they chatter away to each other. At this age, they have enough vocabulary to tell their stories and express their feelings, and they chatter on and on -- without "working" at it. Their use of the language is fluent and natural.

There are adult d/Deaf people who consider themselves to be fluent in several spoken languages. Why is it not possible for you to accept the experiences of other d/Deaf people as valid? Why do you think what you know and experience is all there is out there? Why can't you share your own experience without declaring that what is for you, must be for everyone. How can you declare that just because speaking is difficult for you, that no other d/Deaf person can be fluent and those who think so are deluded individuals?

If, as you say, you are not fluent or comfortable using spoken languages, don't. That's valid. But there's no need for you to insist on speaking for other d/Deaf who are fluent, you don't and can't accurately represent all. Your proclamation that "no d/Deaf/hoh child or adult could ever be fluent in spoken language" is not accurate.
 
BecLak said:
You may say it 'sounds' ok, but I can tell in both these examples just by reading their mouths and facial expressions.

1. Vin Cerf - yes, he speaks very fast, but he is slurring his words. (btw, I don't see any mention of him being hoh in his write-ups)

2. The children in the video - I am Australian. I can recognise Australians. By the way the children are positioning their lips and pausing, you can easily tell they are using effort to speak.

I saw an interview with the real Sue Thomas (on Youtube) and she displayed the same tell-tale signs. Isn't she supposed to have clear and concise speech and an expert in lipreading? (Now I am not criticising her, I admire her very much for her achievements, yet since she is considered one of the best at what she does, even she has these tell-tale signs). So does Deanne Bray who plays her in the TV series.
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I often can tell if someone is using effort to speak. Often, people do not realize that they are making an effort to speak because they were never able to do it effortlessly. That's the difference that they were never able to distinguish because they never experienced it.
 
BecLak said:
You may say it 'sounds' ok, but I can tell in both these examples just by reading their mouths and facial expressions.

1. Vin Cerf - yes, he speaks very fast, but he is slurring his words. (btw, I don't see any mention of him being hoh in his write-ups)

2. The children in the video - I am Australian. I can recognise Australians. By the way the children are positioning their lips and pausing, you can easily tell they are using effort to speak.

I saw an interview with the real Sue Thomas (on Youtube) and she displayed the same tell-tale signs. Isn't she supposed to have clear and concise speech and an expert in lipreading? (Now I am not criticising her, I admire her very much for her achievements, yet since she is considered one of the best at what she does, even she has these tell-tale signs). So does Deanne Bray who plays her in the TV series.
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Cerf is HOH from birth, wears HAs, has been on the Gallaudet board, and is very much involved in deaf issues. His wife is deaf and has 2 CIs. Do you really feel the need to pick apart their speech skills -- slurring vs. concise, clear speech have no bearing on fluency and I'm just ashamed for you if you judge somebody's language ability based on how they produce speech rather than what they are saying. With the superficial and biased perspective you hold, I'm no longer surprised you didn't realize or acknowledge that you yourself had some degree of deafness or that sign language existed for nearly 50 years.
 
GrendelQ said:
Slurring vs. concise, clear speech have no bearing on fluency
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Fluency means being able to either speak or write with ease. Did you have a different idea of how the word, fluency is defined?
 
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