The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

[BecLak]

Or in my case, type extraordinarily fluently. I am a little confounded by the effort to not be fluent in English.

No one needs to speak English to be fluent. I have a physical barrier to understandable speech, but I consider myself perfectly fluent.

Stephen Hawking uses a computer to speak his words, but I doubt anyone would say he isn't comfortable and fluent in English.

Sure, I get that. I'm just saying that there are HoH definitely, and d/Deaf (although using HAs and/or CIs) apparently, who aren't, or at least don't seem to be, "mindful always." There is such a wide range among people in that situation that it seems overly broad to say that *none* of that group are fluent.

"or at least don't seem to be" - that is exactly what I am pointing out and that is why I am all-inclusive. It often appears like it is effortless because that is what we are trained to do, consciously or subconsciously - to make it appear like that. But the gravity of it all is that no matter what end of the spectrum you may be. It will always be an effort. It cannot be effortless. Only those who are hearing can achieve absolute fluency with speech effortlessly.

 

[Beach girl]

Perhaps it hinges on what is "hearing," then. Maybe the HA and CI-users are more "hearing" than "deaf," even if unaided they would be considered deaf?

I can see you are convinced of the lack of fluency for *all*, but in my experience (being a HA-user for 30-plus years now), I don't see it, certainly not for *all.* But probably no point in continuing the debate; you see it your way, others see it differently. We all see things through the prism of our own experiences.

 

[FadedRose]

Hahaha! Me too! I say animal park instead of zoo. Still haven't been able to nail down that pesky consonant.

heh, it's embarrassing to have those moments. Especially around people who dont' know me well.

I speak well for being Deaf but my husband still corrects me on words I don't pronounce right or mix up. I may be considered fluent in english but the structure of the sentence I'm trying to get out speech wise just sometimes doesn't come out the way I want it to.

 

[BecLak]

Perhaps it hinges on what is "hearing," then. Maybe the HA and CI-users are more "hearing" than "deaf," even if unaided they would be considered deaf?

I can see you are convinced of the lack of fluency for *all*, but in my experience (being a HA-user for 30-plus years now), I don't see it, certainly not for *all.* But probably no point in continuing the debate; you see it your way, others see it differently. We all see things through the prism of our own experiences.

True, if you define yourself as hearing, then by all means you would have that mindset. You are entitled to your own perspective. I have mine. It basically boils down to either a Hearing or Deaf perspective.

 

[FadedRose]

Perhaps it hinges on what is "hearing," then. Maybe the HA and CI-users are more "hearing" than "deaf," even if unaided they would be considered deaf?

I can see you are convinced of the lack of fluency for *all*, but in my experience (being a HA-user for 30-plus years now), I don't see it, certainly not for *all.* But probably no point in continuing the debate; you see it your way, others see it differently. We all see things through the prism of our own experiences.

I was born severe to profound Deaf but didn't get the diagnosis until I was 9 and do wear hearing aids but just because I wear hearing aids it doesn't mean that I'm more hearing than those that don't. As far as fluency I dont think that can ever be truely achieved by those of us who were born Deaf. I haven't yet and went through speech therapy from the time I was 3 until I was 19. The english langauge isn't something that comes natural, maybe for others the late deafened and HOH with normal speech but thats just my personal opinion based on personal experiences.

the debate is quite interesting. I'll be checking in to see where it goes

 

[Beach girl]

What do you define as "hearing" versus "deaf or Hoh," then? Above you said "That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing."

That sounds like you are stating what you believe to be objective fact, not just a perspective.

 

[FadedRose]

What do you define as "hearing" versus "deaf or Hoh," then? Above you said "That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing."

That sounds like you are stating what you believe to be objective fact, not just a perspective.

here is my take on it if anyone cares to read
A hearing person to me is a person with normal hearing with a natrual affinity for the english language. I do consider some HOH people to be in the hearing catagory( I once met a man who refused to sign with me because he refused to associate with anyone who was Deaf and he was HOH, he is a hearing person because he has a hearing mindset, if a Deaf person has a hearing mindset thats a different matter at least to me), and most late deafened people I consider to be hearing people as they did not grow up Deaf, did not have to have speech therapy and most that I've met have normal speech. My father is late deafened he's in his 70's and he's hearing to me. A young person who suddenly loses their hearing and becomes Deaf to me is still hearing but is on the fence as they learned to speak before they lost their hearing. But for the ones born Deaf who had to learn how to speak no, I don't think as I'm one of them I'll ever be fluent in the english language as the others are. My view may be a little off the mark but I'm willing to learn, be open minded but this is from my personal observations from meeting these people and from being quite frankly Deaf.

 

[Beach girl]

I think those definitions make perfect sense.

 

[BecLak]

here is my take on it if anyone cares to read
A hearing person to me is a person with normal hearing with a natrual affinity for the english language. I do consider some HOH people to be in the hearing catagory( I once met a man who refused to sign with me because he refused to associate with anyone who was Deaf and he was HOH, he is a hearing person because he has a hearing mindset, if a Deaf person has a hearing mindset thats a different matter at least to me), and most late deafened people I consider to be hearing people as they did not grow up Deaf, did not have to have speech therapy and most that I've met have normal speech. My father is late deafened he's in his 70's and he's hearing to me. A young person who suddenly loses their hearing and becomes Deaf to me is still hearing but is on the fence as they learned to speak before they lost their hearing. But for the ones born Deaf who had to learn how to speak no, I don't think as I'm one of them I'll ever be fluent in the english language as the others are. My view may be a little off the mark but I'm willing to learn, be open minded but this is from my personal observations from meeting these people and from being quite frankly Deaf.

Good post. That pretty much sums it up the way it is. However, the late-deafened however will still gradually end up with speech being an effort.

As for perspectives, you couldn't be more spot on.

 

[kokonut]

I would like to point out my argument. That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing. To speak well takes effort, it will could never be considered effortless. We can achieve near to perfect diction but there will always be some shortfall somewhere, and it will always be with effort, that conscious mindful effort that DC described.

What is this "we" business? "We will never speak like natural/native speakers...." ? Not sure on what you meant by "natural/native" speakers. But here's my answer....sure, there are people with a wide range of hearing loss (those born with it, too) who can and do speak naturally and without effort. As for "perfect diction," not sure what you meant by that but certainly clear and concise diction can be attained. And lastly, as for effortlessly, that means to speak without even thinking. It just comes naturally. All I have to do is provide one example to prove what you have said, Beclak, is not true.

 

[BecLak]

What is this "we" business? "We will never speak like natural/native speakers...." ? Not sure on what you meant by "natural/native" speakers. But here's my answer....sure, there are people with a wide range of hearing loss (those born with it, too) who can and do speak naturally and without effort. As for "perfect diction," not sure what you meant by that but certainly clear and concise diction can be attained. And lastly, as for effortlessly, that means to speak without even thinking. It just comes naturally. All I have to do is provide one example to prove what you have said, Beclak, is not true.

'We' as in those of us who are not in the range of 'normal hearing'. The only exception, in a part sense, I make here is the late-deafened who had normal hearing to begin with. But even then, they will gradually find it an effort to speak too.

Provide one example? Are you saying that you are that one example?

 

[kokonut]

'We' as in those of us who are not in the range of 'normal hearing'. The only exception, in a part sense, I make here is the late-deafened who had normal hearing to begin with. But even then, they will gradually find it an effort to speak too.

Provide one example? Are you saying that you are that one example?

There are many examples.

What does the amount of hearing loss has to do with the ability to speak? Secondly, what does "speaking effortlessly" mean to you? Speaking without thinking? What?

 

[BecLak]

What do you define as "hearing" versus "deaf or Hoh," then? Above you said "That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing."

That sounds like you are stating what you believe to be objective fact, not just a perspective.

It is a fact. It is just people with a hearing perspective are more often than not, blind to that fact, or in denial of it.

 

[kokonut]

That's making a blanket statement for all people born with hearing loss as if it were true. All it takes is one example to make that statement false.

 

[BecLak]

Many people have told me I have very clear and concise diction but then a kid and/or stranger will come along and say "You speak funny" or "Now that you mention it, I knew something was different about you".

I know for myself, that I have to be constantly mindful of how I pronouce words. There are still quite a few words I stumble over and some words I cannot pronounce at all. Like deafskeptic and DeafCaroline, I will use easier words with similar meanings. I had in the past, taught English as a second language for only a few months. Although I enjoy teaching, and I could have continued on for many years, I had to stop because it was just too much effort for me. After only one hour of teaching, I would be completely exhausted for the rest of the day and my throat, neck and chest muscles hurt from the effort.

When I was growing up I was in the mindset that I spoke fluently and effortlessly because I had nothing to compare it to. I thought it was normal to have to think about the way I manuevered my mouth. I thought it normal so much so that I suppressed any discomfort on my part. After doing this for many many years it became part of my subconscious and I began fooling myself that I was hearing and because I had that mindset drummed into me, I started to think that way and because I thought that way so did everyone close to me. So I was fooling them too. It was only 2 years ago, that I had a very rude wake up call, from a government employee of all people, where I realised that no matter how hard I may try to convince myself and other people, I could never be hearing. It was then I freed myself. I am no longer in denial of who I am. I am Deaf.

 

[kokonut]

Being able to speak clearly and concisely, and effortlessly has nothing to do with on wanting to be a hearing person but rather the person has the ability to do so regardless of his/her hearing loss. Some are able to do it effortlessly, others struggle.

 

[BecLak]

That's making a blanket statement for all people born with hearing loss as if it were true. All it takes is one example to make that statement false.

Are you that example Kokonut?

 

[Jiro]

this thread is very sad. I hope you find your peace one day....

 

[kokonut]

Are you that example Kokonut?

Perhaps, but I am going to use somebody else. Again, having a hearing loss doesn't mean people cannot speak effortlessly, obviously they can and do.

 

[BecLak]

The only ones who are capable of speaking effortlessly are the ones who have 'normal' hearing or late-deafened. The late-deafened however will eventually find it an effort to speak.

Any other person is in denial. Show me that example Kokonut to prove me wrong or forever hold your peace on this. If other ADers can show me examples to support your comment - let's say 10 altogether, then I will stand corrected.