The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

Status
Not open for further replies.
Banjo said:
Fluency means being able to either speak or write with ease. Did you have a different idea of how the word, fluency is defined?
Click to expand...

what do you expect especially from a hearie? :lol:

better wait till her daughter is grown up and she'll see how much effort her daughter is taking just to talk like hearie.
 
GrendelQ said:
Cerf is HOH from birth, wears HAs, has been on the Gallaudet board, and is very much involved in deaf issues. His wife is deaf and has 2 CIs. Do you really feel the need to pick apart their speech skills -- slurring vs. concise, clear speech have no bearing on fluency and I'm just ashamed for you if you judge somebody's language ability based on how they produce speech rather than what they are saying. With the superficial and biased perspective you hold, I'm no longer surprised you didn't realize or acknowledge that you yourself had some degree of deafness or that sign language existed for nearly 50 years.
Click to expand...

in caes you didn't notice - she is not criticizing their speech skill. She is showing you a false illusion of "CI/HA miracle" that deafies can do it like hearie.

I have spent many years in intensive speech therapy. I know enough now to discern one's fluency and effort in speaking. I can tell you that many oral deafies are not speaking the same way as hearies. it was quite easy to identify one.

I have met VERY VERY VERY few oral deafies.... like 2 so far who speak nearly the same way as hearies.
 
Bottesini said:
Or in my case, type extraordinarily fluently. I am a little confounded by the effort to not be fluent in English.

No one needs to speak English to be fluent. I have a physical barrier to understandable speech, but I consider myself perfectly fluent.

Stephen Hawking uses a computer to speak his words, but I doubt anyone would say he isn't comfortable and fluent in English.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the hearing parents we have here on the forum more or less say verbally spoken English is a required parameter of obtaining fluency.

That's where i say..... Yo.

And Grendel............. Get me these deaf people who you say that they are fluent without effort - I'd like to ask them a few questions.
 
Jiro said:
what do you expect especially from a hearie? :lol:

better wait till her daughter is grown up and she'll see how much effort her daughter is taking just to talk like hearie.
Click to expand...

Funny, they did not like us telling them "Oh, now lets wait for 14 years and see what happens."

Sad when it has to come down to that.
 
Banjo said:
Fluency means being able to either speak or write with ease. Did you have a different idea of how the word, fluency is defined?
Click to expand...

Write. You have put that in there. Speech is not needed for fluency. The majority of us here are fluent in English.

It is how we are communicating at this moment.
 
posts from hell said:
The problem is that the hearing parents we have here on the forum more or less say verbally spoken English is a required parameter of obtaining fluency.

That's where i say..... Yo.

And Grendel............. Get me these deaf people who you say that they are fluent without effort - I'd like to ask them a few questions.
Click to expand...

I am probably focused on a more narrow definition. Fluency does not require speech.
 
posts from hell said:
Funny, they did not like us telling them "Oh, now lets wait for 14 years and see what happens."

Sad when it has to come down to that.
Click to expand...

and it would be said if they say
60.gif
- "he's so right!"

I don't care about being right because it means it's too late. damage's already been done. the cycle just keep on repeating... truly sad.
 
Jiro said:
and it would be said if they say
60.gif
- "he's so right!"

I don't care about being right because it means it's too late. damage's already been done. the cycle just keep on repeating... truly sad.
Click to expand...

exactly.
 
Jiro said:
in caes you didn't notice - she is not criticizing their speech skill. She is showing you a false illusion of "CI/HA miracle" that deafies can do it like hearie.

I have spent many years in intensive speech therapy. I know enough now to discern one's fluency and effort in speaking. I can tell you that many oral deafies are not speaking the same way as hearies. it was quite easy to identify one.

I have met VERY VERY VERY few oral deafies.... like 2 so far who speak nearly the same way as hearies.
Click to expand...

The issue is not whether someone "speaks like hearies" or "the miracle of CI/HA". It's about how comfortable someone is in the use of language: fluency is flow, ease, speed. The issue is fluency. You can be perfectly fluent and not have perfect diction. You can be perfectly fluent and slur. You can be perfectly fluent and not "speak the same as a hearie."
 
GrendelQ said:
The issue is not whether someone "speaks like hearies" or "the miracle of CI/HA". It's about how comfortable someone is in the use of language: fluency is flow, ease, speed. The issue is fluency. You can be perfectly fluent and not have perfect diction. You can be perfectly fluent and slur. You can be perfectly fluent and not "speak the same as a hearie."
Click to expand...

Ah but GrendelQ - we're not talking about language fluency, we're talking about speech fluency - deaf people having trouble with articulation and resonance are not considered fluent in speech. Slurring is one such example. Starting off speaking clearly then ending in mumbling is another.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Ah but GrendelQ - we're not talking about language fluency, we're talking about speech fluency - deaf people having trouble with articulation and resonance are not considered fluent in speech. Slurring is one such example. Starting off speaking clearly then ending in mumbling is another.
Click to expand...

Same old Grendel trying to blur things.

I'll reiterate..
[yt]356mE1KcXQw[/yt]
 
Jiro said:
and it would be said if they say
60.gif
- "he's so right!"

I don't care about being right because it means it's too late. damage's already been done. the cycle just keep on repeating... truly sad.
Click to expand...

not only, truly sad, but also truly downright abusive, it is a lifetime of linguisitic torture (14 years! in in audism hell !). This sort of practice ought to be illegal.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Ah but GrendelQ - we're not talking about language fluency, we're talking about speech fluency - deaf people having trouble with articulation and resonance are not considered fluent in speech. Slurring is one such example. Starting off speaking clearly then ending in mumbling is another.
Click to expand...

Please look up fluency. You will see no mention of resonance, articulation, even clarity. You are talking about a very different measure. The issue we're discussing is fluency.

You took issue with the word "fluency" as used in the opening of the OP's posted video where they described the scene as "Deaf children learn to listen and speak fluently" and said that wasn't possible.

Beclak has repeatedly stated that no d/Deaf person can ever be fluent in a spoken language. I continue to disagree.

I know d/Deaf people who describe themselves as fluent in both spoken and written English. I've spoken with d/Deaf people who are obviously fluent. They might have a deaf voice / deaf accent, and yet they are still perfectly fluent in using the language.

I know d/Deaf people who describe themselves as fluent in ASL. I can't judge that, because I'm not yet fluent, but I sure believe them. They may be easily distinguishable from a native-born signer, but still perfectly fluent in using the language.

My close friend is an amazing writer. He has terrible arthritis and has been experimenting with software programs to transcribe his drafts, he's tried using shorthand-style notations, voice programs, he often types entire pages with a single finger (I'm a two finger typist, too:) ). His handwriting is horrible and unintelligible. He's still a fluent writer: his language flows fluently despite the alternative means by which he completes his work.
 
GrendelQ said:
Please look up fluency. You will see no mention of resonance, articulation, even clarity. You are talking about a very different measure. The issue we're discussing is fluency.
Click to expand...

flu·en·cy

noun /ˈflo͞oənsē/ 
fluencies, plural

1 - The quality or condition of being fluent, in particular

2- The ability to speak or write a foreign language easily and accurately
- fluency in Spanish is essential

3 - The ability to express oneself easily and articulately

4- Gracefulness and ease of movement or style
- the horse was jumping with breathtaking fluency
Click to expand...

fluency definition - Google Search
 
Banjo said:
fluency definition - Google Search
Click to expand...

I could try to make a distinction between the two uses here, linguistic articulation (which refers to the production of precise sounds) and expressing oneself articulately (which refers to the clear use of language), but they are close enough -- I'll give you this one. Yes, someone needs to be able to express himself articulately to be fluent.

Now, you can have a deaf voice/accent, slur, and still express yourself articulately, still be fluent using spoken language. You can have arthritis and still express yourself articulately, still be fluent using written language. You can have tennis elbow and still be fluent in ASL.
 
GrendelQ - this whole discussion of speech fluency started with talking about that video "Deaf Children Learn to Speak and Listen Fluently" and talking about how misleading that is to imply that a CI gives the child automatic fluency when in fact, it's extremely rare one can attain that perfect fluency. And that this message is what's making parents focus more on speech than sign or even outright dismissing the value of sign on a deaf children's language development and here you are getting nicky picky about the fact that SOME deaf people can speak fluently. That's not the point here, we're talking about the message of "speech fluency" as suggested by that video implying ALL deaf kids who get implanted will acquire this.

Secondly, that deaf accent does make some people think the deaf is slow-minded. I've heard of one deaf female lawyer who chose to go voice-off, even at work because she hated the impression people were getting from her "deaf accent" that she's not smart enough to do the job. Your daughter, if she does not attain "perfect" speech, she will be subjected to that same presumption by some hearing people. That's life, that's how it is.

I think you're filtering what we're saying through self-defensiveness.
 
posts from hell said:
The problem is that the hearing parents we have here on the forum more or less say verbally spoken English is a required parameter of obtaining fluency.

That's where i say..... Yo.

And Grendel............. Get me these deaf people who you say that they are fluent without effort - I'd like to ask them a few questions.[/QUOTE]

I was about to ask for the same as well.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top