The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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Also, the title is decieving...The new deaf generation who can speak and listen. Deaf people can speak and listen with their eyes and hands. :dunno:
 
BecLak said:
Then you are the one being fooled dearie, as for all who would believe such a video. I am not trying to change the definition. Fact: No d/Deaf/hoh child or adult can speak effortlessly, regardless of whether they have or have not CIs. Going by the dictionary definition of fluency, no d/Deaf/hoh child or adult could ever be fluent in spoken language, we are just masters at fooling people by appearing to be so. I am not the one being fooled here. (Note that I did not mention written language so d/Deaf/hoh can be fluent in English or any other language in the written mode according to the definition).

p.s All the more reason I believe that d/Deaf children and adults should never be deprived of their own language - Sign language.
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I don't believe some marketing video, I believe my own eyes and ears and the word of several deaf individuals who say they are fluent in spoken English. If you don't feel you are fluent, that's absolutely valid. But that doesn't mean no other deaf person can be fluent. Do you really feel that it's your place to speak for all deaf people, contradicting their feelings of comfort or ease, and declaring that they can't possibly be fluent? Have you spoken with many other deaf people? Any other deaf people?
 
jillio said:
And some of them even have a problem!:lol:
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True true! I remember a hearing guy in 4th grade who had to see my speech therapist once or twice a week! And my dad has a stutter.
 
GrendelQ said:
I don't believe some marketing video, I believe my own eyes and ears and the word of several deaf individuals who say they are fluent in spoken English. If you don't feel you are fluent, that's absolutely valid. But that doesn't mean no other deaf person can be fluent. Do you really feel that it's your place to speak for all deaf people, contradicting their feelings of comfort or ease, and declaring that they can't possibly be fluent? Have you spoken with many other deaf people? Any other deaf people?
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Excuse me Grendel, but isn't it a fact you are hearing? I am Deaf, raised orally. Yes, I have met other d/Deaf people, thank you very much. You did not read my post. You never really do.

You are being fooled. Every d/Deaf child or adult needs assistance and special training to speak. It is never effortless (some d/Deaf are even fooling themselves if they think it comes with ease, believe me I used to think that way myself because I was conditioned to do so by an audist society, that is until I had a rude wake-up call just over 2 years ago).

Sorry to burst your perfect little bubble. That goes for Kokonut and Hohtopics too.

By the way, I am Deaf because I have ceased fooling myself and others around me. I am not hearing, nor will I ever be. I am Deaf who happens to speak well, but then why should I need to speak? I write English fluently and I now have sign language too.
 
effortlessly just the same as dogs, they are TRAINED, not innately knowlying what to to impress you...
same sort of thing occurs with DEAF people VERBALLY TALKING, we dont REALLY HEAR what we are SAYING we just pronouce with our mouths, it was a god-awful thing to do with young, and over time 'we sort of got used to it' but being used to it, is NOT the same as being Natural, it never was and never will be
 
don't you think that there is a difference between "fluently" and "effortlessly"? I mean, many people are fluent in languages that are not their mother one, but this doesn't mean they make no effort in using it. In my town there are many people who are bilingual, but not many of them are FULLY bilingual, even if they're grown up with two languages... One of them is prevalent on the other, and if they need to use that one for all day for many days, they get tired.
I know some bilingual deafies, but they always need to pay attention to speech in order to understand it and talk "right". Even with CI... Sometimes, even late deafened.
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Right on messymama!!!!! And the thing is....I think what Grendel is missing is that there are levels of fluency. I say that as a hoh kid. Like you can be fluent in the spoken language bit of English, but still not be able to speak English with near native fluency. I only had the typical hh spoken language lag as a little kid. (was caught up by at least second year of preschool) In fact, my verbal IQ has always been very high. I remember my last IEP evaluation, I got a word that NOBODY else had ever gotten before!!!! But in terms of mechanics (ie pitch, volumne, moduation etc) I am VERY deaf. Heck, I still need to remember how to say the th blend. Also, it's a fact that even dhh people who can speak well still have major major issues with figures of speech and things like that, that would not bedevil a native speaker.
 
Beclak, I don't know what definitions you are using for d/Deaf or HoH, especially when it comes to adults. There are certainly plenty of late-deafened, HoH, adults who are perfectly fluent in English (or whatever their native language was).

I recently went to an HLAA convention in Washington and had the opportunity to speak with many people using HAs and many others using CIs. Virtually all of them spoke fluently. Some were speakers on panels, where they gave their presentations in English, again, perfectly fluently.

I don't know what everyone's background was. I'm sure some were late-deafened, some deaf from childhood, perhaps some deaf from birth, I don't know. But certainly there were many, many deaf and HoH adults there who were speaking perfectly fluently. I don't think they (and I include myself in that number) are all fooling themselves.

That's not to deny the special training and effort that goes into learning to speak for young children who are deaf or severely HoH. Just saying that it seems like way, way too broad a brush to claim that no d/Deaf or HoH person speaks fluently.
 
shel90 said:
Also, the title is decieving...The new deaf generation who can speak and listen. Deaf people can speak and listen with their eyes and hands. :dunno:
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Or in my case, type extraordinarily fluently. I am a little confounded by the effort to not be fluent in English.

No one needs to speak English to be fluent. I have a physical barrier to understandable speech, but I consider myself perfectly fluent.

Stephen Hawking uses a computer to speak his words, but I doubt anyone would say he isn't comfortable and fluent in English.
 
Bottesini said:
Or in my case, type extraordinarily fluently. I am a little confounded by the effort to not be fluent in English.

No one needs to speak English to be fluent. I have a physical barrier to understandable speech, but I consider myself perfectly fluent.

Stephen Hawking uses a computer to speak his words, but I doubt anyone would say he isn't comfortable and fluent in English.
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:gpost:
 
Beach girl said:
Beclak, I don't know what definitions you are using for d/Deaf or HoH, especially when it comes to adults. There are certainly plenty of late-deafened, HoH, adults who are perfectly fluent in English (or whatever their native language was).

I recently went to an HLAA convention in Washington and had the opportunity to speak with many people using HAs and many others using CIs. Virtually all of them spoke fluently. Some were speakers on panels, where they gave their presentations in English, again, perfectly fluently.

I don't know what everyone's background was. I'm sure some were late-deafened, some deaf from childhood, perhaps some deaf from birth, I don't know. But certainly there were many, many deaf and HoH adults there who were speaking perfectly fluently. I don't think they (and I include myself in that number) are all fooling themselves.

That's not to deny the special training and effort that goes into learning to speak for young children who are deaf or severely HoH. Just saying that it seems like way, way too broad a brush to claim that no d/Deaf or HoH person speaks fluently.
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I myself, would be one who is considered a fluent speaker. I have done a lot of public-speaking over the course of my life. I am a Bible lecturer, and have appeared on television on a few occasions. However, the effort that goes into speaking for those who are Hoh, d/Deaf is mostly only visible to those who are d/Deaf. Hearing people usually do not notice it. I was born severely-deaf. As for late-deafened, yes they had the advantage of being native/natural speakers, yet over time there is evidence from testimonies that the ease of speaking gradually fades away and it becomes an effort just like for any other d/Deaf person.
 
GrendelQ said:
The word "fluency" was used in the Auditory-Verbal promotional video the OP posted, "Deaf children learn to listen and speak fluently."

Several ADers have contested that wording, including Beclak, who states that no d/Deaf people can be fluent in a spoken language, because their use of language doesn't meet the definition of fluency, which includes the word effortless.

If it's a great effort for you to use a language, you aren't fluent in it. If you can use a language with ease, express yourself quickly and effortlessly, you are fluent. The issue has been from the start with the use of the word "fluently," as seen in the video that led off this thread. I disagreed with Beclak, who stated that no d/Deaf person can be fluent in a spoken language. I understand that you probably feel foolish about writing that -- you thought you were opposing Koko's definition rather than one found across several dictionaries -- and having to back it up and are looking for a way to back off your statement, but it's right in front of us. Fluency has a pretty clear meaning: it includes a component of ease, of effortlessness, of speed. And yes, it is possible to find d/Deaf people with fluency in spoken languages.
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I am fluent in spoken English but it takes effort to make sure I pronounce the words correctly especially in public speaking. That is what Becklak is talking about. You include effortlessness but for deaf people, we are using our weakest sense so we dont have that component.
 
Bottesini said:
Or in my case, type extraordinarily fluently. I am a little confounded by the effort to not be fluent in English.

No one needs to speak English to be fluent. I have a physical barrier to understandable speech, but I consider myself perfectly fluent.

Stephen Hawking uses a computer to speak his words, but I doubt anyone would say he isn't comfortable and fluent in English.
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:gpost: :applause:
 
I'm educated, literate, have a room in my house that's filled with books I've read and I write well and have won awards for my writing but it doesn't come with automatic fluency because my exposure to daily missing fragments of spoken english bleeds into how i write subconsciously. In my mind, I'm writing perfectly but when i read the first draft, it's like oh! I see the mistakes and correct them.

I am fluent in spoken english but always aware of my pronounciation and I still practice my speech from time to time to make sure I'm still crisp and clear. It's not like you learn how to speak once then it's done. you have to be conscious always of the mechanical aspects of speech because you can't hear yourself. Like "ch" - place the tongue at the front, behind the front teeth, then "t" followed by closing the jaw and hissing ending in an "shhh" forming your lips just so. - it's really like that mentally when I speak, hyperconscious of mechanics of speech. Fluency implies unconscious ease. Hmmm...not so much for those who have to be mindful always.
 
DeafCaroline said:
I'm educated, literate, have a room in my house that's filled with books I've read and I write well and have won awards for my writing but it doesn't come with automatic fluency because my exposure to daily missing fragments of spoken english bleeds into how i write subconsciously. In my mind, I'm writing perfectly but when i read the first draft, it's like oh! I see the mistakes and correct them.

I am fluent in spoken english but always aware of my pronounciation and I still practice my speech from time to time to make sure I'm still crisp and clear. It's not like you learn how to speak once then it's done. you have to be conscious always of the mechanical aspects of speech because you can't hear yourself. Like "ch" - place the tongue at the front, behind the front teeth, then "t" followed by closing the jaw and hissing ending in an "shhh" forming your lips just so. - it's really like that mentally when I speak, hyperconscious of mechanics of speech. Fluency implies unconscious ease. Hmmm...not so much for those who have to be mindful always.
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That is what it is like for me speech wise. If I use a word I can't pronounce correctly, I often use another word with similar meaning. I feel like I'm a walking thesaurus sometimes!
 
deafskeptic said:
That is what it is like for me speech wise. If I use a word I can't pronounce correctly, I often use another word with similar meaning. I feel like I'm a walking thesaurus sometimes!
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Hahaha! Me too! I say animal park instead of zoo. Still haven't been able to nail down that pesky consonant.
 
DeafCaroline said:
I'm educated, literate, have a room in my house that's filled with books I've read and I write well and have won awards for my writing but it doesn't come with automatic fluency because my exposure to daily missing fragments of spoken english bleeds into how i write subconsciously. In my mind, I'm writing perfectly but when i read the first draft, it's like oh! I see the mistakes and correct them.

I am fluent in spoken english but always aware of my pronounciation and I still practice my speech from time to time to make sure I'm still crisp and clear. It's not like you learn how to speak once then it's done. you have to be conscious always of the mechanical aspects of speech because you can't hear yourself. Like "ch" - place the tongue at the front, behind the front teeth, then "t" followed by closing the jaw and hissing ending in an "shhh" forming your lips just so. - it's really like that mentally when I speak, hyperconscious of mechanics of speech. Fluency implies unconscious ease. Hmmm...not so much for those who have to be mindful always.
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Sure, I get that. I'm just saying that there are HoH definitely, and d/Deaf (although using HAs and/or CIs) apparently, who aren't, or at least don't seem to be, "mindful always." There is such a wide range among people in that situation that it seems overly broad to say that *none* of that group are fluent.
 
Beach girl said:
Sure, I get that. I'm just saying that there are HoH definitely, and d/Deaf (although using HAs and/or CIs) apparently, who aren't, or at least don't seem to be, "mindful always." There is such a wide range among people in that situation that it seems overly broad to say that *none* of that group are fluent.
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Ok, for future reference, when we say deaf, we are usually referring to those born deaf and if we meant late-deafened as well, we would clarify that. But you're right, it doesn''t apply to all those with hearing loss, generally speaking.
 
I would like to point out my argument. That whether hoh, deaf, or Deaf, with HAs, CIs or not whichever end of the spectrum we come - we will never speak like natural/native speakers simply because we are not hearing. To speak well takes effort, it will could never be considered effortless. We can achieve near to perfect diction but there will always be some shortfall somewhere, and it will always be with effort, that conscious mindful effort that DC described.
 
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