The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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The guy who hangs out with Larry and Curly.
 
as having made their own informed decisions on getting a CI for their deaf child?"
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What the eff does a CI have to do with auditory verbal? You can do auditory verbal with HAs you know!
 
DeafCaroline said:
Haha, I know. he just proved he won't. Slippery fella, dodging questions left and right, have noticed that since coming here. What is he so afraid of?
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He's afraid of the truth since it will bit him in the nuts. :giggle:
 
DeafCaroline said:
Oh, I was sincere in wanting to see if you ever answer a question directly. I knew you posed that question as an excuse to jump on someone who dared to say no they didn't agree that GrendelQ or Faire Jour made an informed choice. I know your M.O. very well by now.
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Thanks, Caroline. I don't even bother answering Kokonut's questions as I knew it would end up with locked threads.
 
Buffalo said:
Thanks, Caroline. I don't even bother answering Kokonut's questions as I knew it would end up with locked threads.
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thats why i put him on ignore and refuse to respond to him in anyway
 
kokonut said:
They're not saying "listen fluently and speak fluently." The context of it all is about speaking fluently, not "listen fluently" which does not make sense when you consider the definition of the word "fluent." There is no such thing as "listen fluently" because "fluent" means to "express oneself effortlessly." It's already clear on what they meant when they said, "listen and speak fluently."

Fluently - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

fluently - definition of fluently by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
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If speaking fluently is "expressing oneself effortlessly" then no d/Deaf child or adult for that matter could ever obtain that. I speak very well, so people tell me, yet even after being raised orally my whole life (I am now in my late 40s), it still takes immense effort on my part to speak. Yes, I can speak well enough that people don't know I am deaf. But to speak effortlessly - is not possible.
 
jillio said:
:ty: I was very pleased when she told me that!

You know, mentioning writing, I will notice that deaf students are often more creative with English in their writing than in their speaking. I have always attributed it to the fact that spoken communication (as in coversation) is more spontaneous, and we rely more on unconscious use of the language, so that which really hasn't been internalized does not get used. In writing, we have more time to consider our choices. Internalized language is a sign of a native user.
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It is interesting that you mention that Jillio, I find the exact same thing. I can express myself well in writing, often with wit. But in no way can I use wit when speaking with someone unless I have had time to 'think it out', the same amount of time that it takes when I am putting it in writing.
 
BecLak said:
It is interesting that you mention that Jillio, I find the exact same thing. I can express myself well in writing, often with wit. But in no way can I use wit when speaking with someone unless I have had time to 'think it out', the same amount of time that it takes when I am putting it in writing.
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i have the same problem
 
BecLak said:
If speaking fluently is "expressing oneself effortlessly" then no d/Deaf child or adult for that matter could ever obtain that. I speak very well, so people tell me, yet even after being raised orally my whole life (I am now in my late 40s), it still takes immense effort on my part to speak. Yes, I can speak well enough that people don't know I am deaf. But to speak effortlessly - is not possible.
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I don't think you can accurately say that it is not possible for a d/Deaf person to ever be fluent in spoken English. Just because you don't think you are fluent doesn't mean others haven't had a different experience. I'm not fluent in German, much as I tried to be as a child. But because I didn't obtain fluency, that doesn't mean that others aren't fluent. And that doesn't make me better or worse than someone who is fluent in German.
 
GrendelQ said:
I don't think you can accurately say that it is not possible for a d/Deaf person to ever be fluent in spoken English. Just because you don't think you are fluent doesn't mean others haven't had a different experience. I'm not fluent in German, much as I tried to be as a child. But because I didn't obtain fluency, that doesn't mean that others aren't fluent. And that doesn't make me better or worse than someone who is fluent in German.
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not really, what the premise of the recent posts is that we d/Deaf people may speak fluently, but its Never socially fluent,because like of the tormented childhood slaving ourselves to try soooo hard to speak, keep up with other [hearing] children, while battlng the issue of acceptance, trying to fit in, trying to keep up with what THEY are taking for granted in learning in the social environment that is; not in classrooms, not at home with mum and dad (often there the dinner table talks is beyond most of us), all these things are many small details which are basically how atrocities remain subtle to those not d/Deaf but are intensively, painfully obvious BUT while as a child we do not understand that 'pain' because our (childs/childhood memory) does not possess such a maturity to comprehend the happenings of the life/world is still beyond. Young childrens minds are so new to world experiences and oftens why we get lead on by parents from teachers/advisors telling us what to believe. Its very much like if you were an Indian in India chances are you'd be believing in Hinduism because of the environment.
and that tyoe of environment do often impose that 'denial' like 'it doesnt mean..." it doesnt mean...because no body says otherwise...ideology doesnt just work on what we believe but also on what we DON'T believe, like an inverted white-on-black picture images...as an exampe of the mental schematic if you will.

Again, these types of oppressed experiences leave lasting impressions/damages on the way how we act/react/process our spoken (even signing) expressions because for sooo long we weren't given alot of freedom to interact, that said, certain hearing siblings/classrooms are not chosen based on similar interests but also teachers/parents 'encouragement' which is a way of intervention to facilitate 'nearly real' friendship making/identity formation processes which childs go through. In other words it is like our whole life was 'managed' then we get to adult hood, as a result we still dont know how...to process/carry one'seselft in life and communication. The damages are real not imagined but it is untanglible, so (borrowing your 'just because it doesnt mean" it doesnt mean its non-existent, and not worthy of any validation.
hope you get my drift.
 
GrendelQ said:
I don't think you can accurately say that it is not possible for a d/Deaf person to ever be fluent in spoken English. Just because you don't think you are fluent doesn't mean others haven't had a different experience. I'm not fluent in German, much as I tried to be as a child. But because I didn't obtain fluency, that doesn't mean that others aren't fluent. And that doesn't make me better or worse than someone who is fluent in German.
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Grendel, Grendel, Grendel. Every single person I meet whether personally or on the street would say I was fluent in English, both spoken and written. However, you go into the definition given by Kokonut "the ability to express oneself effortlessly". No d/Deaf person, including myself, could ever be 'fluent' in speech, because it cannot be achieved without consistent effort day in day out.
 
Grendel, don't you think that there is a difference between "fluently" and "effortlessly"? I mean, many people are fluent in languages that are not their mother one, but this doesn't mean they make no effort in using it. In my town there are many people who are bilingual, but not many of them are FULLY bilingual, even if they're grown up with two languages... One of them is prevalent on the other, and if they need to use that one for all day for many days, they get tired.
I know some bilingual deafies, but they always need to pay attention to speech in order to understand it and talk "right". Even with CI... Sometimes, even late deafened.
 
BecLak said:
Grendel, Grendel, Grendel. Every single person I meet whether personally or on the street would say I was fluent in English, both spoken and written. However, you go into the definition given by Kokonut "the ability to express oneself effortlessly". No d/Deaf person, including myself, could ever be 'fluent' in speech, because it cannot be achieved without consistent effort day in day out.
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Same for "listening fluently".
 
BecLak said:
Grendel, Grendel, Grendel. Every single person I meet whether personally or on the street would say I was fluent in English, both spoken and written. However, you go into the definition given by Kokonut "the ability to express oneself effortlessly". No d/Deaf person, including myself, could ever be 'fluent' in speech, because it cannot be achieved without consistent effort day in day out.
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Fluency is when your use of language flows with ease, speed, and with little effort. Kokonut's definition looks accurate to me. No matter how much you don't like the guy, it's silly to go redefining the English language just to make him wrong in his definition. Look, I sure don't agree with a lot that Koko says -- politically, I suspect we're diametrically opposed :), so I know your frustration. But you have so much to argue in terms of real issues in which you differ. Do you really want to redefine yourself and all other deaf people as no longer being fluent in English in the service of arguing this point with Koko?

Deaf people can be fluent in English, both written and spoken English. It is not accurate to state that no d/Deaf person can speak English fluently. Of course, not all can. Not all hearing can. But some d/Deaf can speak English fluently, as effortlessly as any other native user of a language uses it.
 
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