The Death Penalty

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Again - entirely up to you to determine his fate. Right punishment is NOT life imprisonment. The right punishment is up to victim's decision to choose punishment as deemed appropriate for the murderer's heinous crimes.

No, it's not up to murder victim's family but law. I would suggest you to read murder victim's families's experience for oppose death penalty. Their wish are being ignored.

I'm kind of appalled at your reasoning. For me - if my child was a serial killer, he is dead to me. I'll disavow him and let the court judges his fate. I will have to spend rest of my life thinking about he has done to victims and victims' families. If he got a life sentence, I'm not even going to visit him once.

This is your opinion.

If it was happened to me... I would focus the reason why my child turn into serial killer. I would be shock and heart break... keep to tell myself what and how have I done anything wrong to expose my child into serial killer.... I would feel guilty myself for expose my child into serial killer like this... feel for victim's families.... My child do not deserve to sentence to death because it's my fault to expose him/her into serial killer... It's my fault for bad parent to my child....
 
For example --
If I am a neglected and abusive parent, if my child's school treats my child like deep shit, if students beat up my child but my child got int trouble for it, if my child have no friends at school, if my child is very loner, and if and if and go on UNTIL

All of sudden, *gasps*, my child is a serial killer!!!

WAAH! I hate my child so much for what he/she have done. I want him / her DEAD for our justice!!!

:roll:

Yeah I know... I would not do that... I would feel myself guilty after learn that my child is serial killer... instead of say like this... I hate my child and never want to see her/him again... want him/her dead for justice...
 
#24 is still too high; it still needs to decrease to lower a number like 100th or 70th place.

With that reason link, because of those *some* religious people believed in death penalty is a "sovled a problem" in order to reduce crimes. Just like here, USA, where many people believe in reducing kind of crimes.

To me, it is not. IMO.

It's not easier to reduce of murders in big number, murder rate in some big cities are declining, such as NYC, LA and Chicago.

We have very higher murder rate in 80's and early 90's.
 
Did you read the links about murder victim's families who opposte death penalty in my previous posts?

There are many families who support the death penalty, too. But the death penalty isn't left in the hands of the victims' families, nor is it left up to polls to determine.


You can image what if your child is a serial killer and will have death penalty. What do you feel as mother if you see your serial killer child sentence to death? I bet you would want justice to put him/her to jail for rest of life.
You might lose that bet.
 
To say that "white collar criminals have more of a negative affect on society than do blue collar criminals. The effects of their crimes are far reaching and widespread"... that is HIGHLY subjective because you're implying white collar crimes cause devastating damage to most public. You will need to show me convincing argument with statistic/document/studies because based on my research, blue collar crimes have more negative effect on society than white collar crimes.
No, it's not subjective. It is objectively supported. Your research in lacking. One white collar criminal.....hundreds of directly affected victims. (And that is a conservative estimate.) One blue collar criminal, one directly affected victim. You do the math. But you might want to keep in mind that numerous criminologists and sociologists have already done the math, and it does not support your belief.

Typical white collar crimes - fraud, bribery, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime, and forgery. FBI narrowed the definition of white-collar crime to as "those illegal acts which are characterized by deceit, concealment, or violation of trust and which are not dependent upon the application or threat of physical force or violence." The sole motivation of white-collar crime is MONEY where in most cases - no physical harm done to victims. However, the government does not keep statistic on white-collar crimes because it is highly debatable about what constitutes such crime since it's so broad.

Oh, puleeze!

Suffice to say - white-collar crimes DO NOT kill people. blue-collar crimes do. The FBI statistic shows in 2006, there are 490 pending cases (white-collar Fraud crimes) whereas... there are 17,034 murders/manslaughters, 92,455 rapes, 860,853 aggravated assaults, and 1,417,745 violent crimes. So tell me which one is widespread and devastating for community. I suppose those "blue-collar crimes" do not concern you as much as white-collar crimes.

You can't look at the number of peretrators to detemine effect on society. You have to look at the number of direct victims, as well as other variables. That is where you are making your mistake. Your methods of analysis are in error.

You say "And anyone who is imprisoned has something to loose. Their freedom is lost." Again - You did not carefully read what I just wrote. I repeat again - ""actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary." What are you going to do in free world when you're broke, useless, no friends. Your freedom doesn't mean anything to you when you're hungry and you have no roof to sleep under. That is why they resorted to crime without a concern for ramification of their actions. They have NOTHING to lose. White-collar criminals do - their money and freedom. However - most of them don't unfortunately go to jail. Just look at Enron and most of Bush's Republican cronies. Even though they were convicted of fraud, they're still laughing and having beer at their homes. Their punishments are probations, house arrests, or serve jail for a day or 2. They still get to keep most of their money stored at some Cayman Island accounts. But that doesn't bother me much because it's just life. I'm more concerned with thugs around me because your life will most likely be threatened by thugs than a greedy white-collar bastard.

Your logic here is naive and ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding of the circumstances of the average criminal incarcerated in American prisons. Your concern is misplaced, but that is the result of your naivte, as well. When you are ready to come up with some valid arguments, we can continue this discussion.


You're kinda digressing a bit from main point. We're mainly debating about death penalty and you were concerned as that you perhaps thought too many people were wrongfully convicted. I've showed my case with statistic data from FBI, ACLU, and Bureau of Justice to correct your misconception and I've argued my case that death penalty is within 95% success rate so the error rate of executing wrongfully-convicted people is within acceptable margin - only 39 out of 1099. Yes I understand one innocent life is too great but like I said - we don't live in Utopia World. The benefit greatly outweighed the error. If the error rate went up to 10%... now THAT is very worrisome and there will be riot at White House!

And your data shows that errors have been made. I do not digress at all. 95% is not good enough. That still leaves an error margin of 5%. That is unacceptable. One innocent person put to death is unacceptable as it creates a situation whereby the justice system becomes a legalized form of murder.
And, yes, you have presented some statistics, but obviously, you have misinterpreted them.
 
Refer to my previous post - In 1962, James Moore raped and strangled 14-year-old Pamela Moss. Her parents decided to spare Moore the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole. Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws in 1982, James Moore is eligible for parole every two years! If Pamela's parents knew that they couldn't trust the state, Moore could have been executed long ago and they could have put the whole horrible incident behind them forever. Instead they have a nightmare to deal with annually. I'll bet not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves for being foolish enough to trust the liberal sham that is life imprisonment and rehabilitation.

Again - entirely up to you to determine his fate. Right punishment is NOT life imprisonment. The right punishment is up to victim's decision to choose punishment as deemed appropriate for the murderer's heinous crimes.



I'm kind of appalled at your reasoning. For me - if my child was a serial killer, he is dead to me. I'll disavow him and let the court judges his fate. I will have to spend rest of my life thinking about he has done to victims and victims' families. If he got a life sentence, I'm not even going to visit him once.

Yes I have a strong ethic in preserving a life at all cost but there is a line. For example, if this armed robber was robbing me and I caught him with my gun, I will not shoot to kill unless he shoots first or poses extreme danger to my family. I exercise my rights to shoot with extreme hesitance.

Being eligible for parole does not mean "released under parole". As far as your assumptions regarding Pamela's families feelings, you are being very presumptuous. I would venture to say that if they were ethical enough to stand before a court and argue for life in prison for the killer of their daughter, that their feelings have not changed. They knew when they made their argument that the situation would be with them for the rest of their lives. Howver, they stood by their ethics and argued against the death penalty because they are principled people who havew the courage to stand by their values.

And, BTW....he is eligible for parole every 2 years, not annually as you have so claimed.

I think it is safe to say that you don't yet have children.

Tell me, how does one get to be so judgemental? Is it youth and naivite?
 
#24 is still too high; it still needs to decrease to lower a number like 100th or 70th place.

Canada is 44th. Supposedly, you felt it's safe in there?

Interest... South Korea have higher than North Korea. There are lot of high intelligence countries are on top 60.
 
exactly. which is why I strongly urge you to be careful when interpreting statistic because it's all subjective. You mainly need to know 2 things - how is it calculated and what are their criterias.

For example - USA's definition of murder is to kill people with premeditation. Other country may have different definition. So to avoid this confusion or to MINIMIZE this confusion, there are a few reliable sources to read. It is safe to say death penalty in USA is relatively low and forgiving than others.

The very purpose of statistics is to remove the subjective interpretation from data and create an objective measurement. You are very confused regarding the nature of subjectivity and objectivity.
 
There are many families who support the death penalty, too. But the death penalty isn't left in the hands of the victims' families, nor is it left up to polls to determine.

I searched the links for murder victim´s families oppose or support death penalty but all what I saw many murder victim´s families oppose death penalty. Could you please provide us the link where murder victim´s family support death penalty because I didn´t find.

I did typed "Murder victims family support death penalty" but it comes is oppose death penalty...

Look this
murder victims family support death penalty - Google-Suche



:dunno2:


You might lose that bet.

:confused:
 
Liebling - Good read but... I'm afraid I'll have to dismiss it. We cannot compare our statistic to other countries because of #1 - they do not have the extensive population diversity that we have. #2 - the decline in crime rates are not solely dependent on removal of death penalty as this article claims. $3 - I refuse to listen to any sources with special interest/agenda. (see the last paragraph of this post) Here's my counter-argument.

I'm sure most of us obviously do not want to keep psychopathic murderer alive in maximum-security prison. It will give peace of mind to public if they were executed. Do you want Henry Lee Lucas alive in prison? (he confessed to 3,000 murders)... Andrew Cunanan (murdered 5 people including Gianni Versace)... Gerard john Schaefer (cop who killed 34 women/girls... so on

According to FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, 85% of world's serial killers are in USA. FBI Special Agent John P. Skillestad (serial killer profiler) stated "a lot of people don't realize that there's a lot of people doing this work day in and day out, killing an estimated 14,000 people a year, most serial killers are 'normal' and have very high intelligence levels."

Now that scares me... and you're worried about white-collar criminals, Jillio??? guess what? What I just said up there are subjective and biased. I can use those data from FBI statistic to scare people into believing we MUST keep death penalty, right? same thing with that silly site called "Combat Law"

Please people... do not just blindly use whatever you got from google search as support for your argument. Do not even use the site with special interest because they have agenda and they're notorious for skewing the statistic to favor their cause. Believe me - in debate, first thing they ask is where you get the source from and if you say that you got it from some site called "Combat Law", you just lost the game.

Notice how the site said homicide in states with death penalty has been 48-101% higher than in states without death penalty? They even make their report looks convincing by saying "Also, the FBI data show that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average (source: Amnesty USA)." COME ON GUYS! It's completely taken out of context to word it for their agenda. FBI data is BY NO MEANS saying states should abolish death penalty just cuz the statistic said so. It's just giving you data - completely unbiased. Their argument states that the death penalty does not deter murder. WELL… Dismissing capital punishment on that basis requires us to eliminate all prisons as well because they do not seem to be any more effective in the deterrence of crime.

I’m going to use some lines from Wesley Lowe because he said it better than I can.

Now let's get on with REAL debate with data and then use it to your argument.

Myth #1. Site claims states with no death penalty has lower crime rate than states with death penalty.
Counter-Argument: I must point out that every state is different. These differences include the populations, number of cities, and the crime rates. Strongly urbanized states are more likely to have higher crime rates than states that are more rural, such as those that lack capital punishment. The states that have capital punishment are compelled to have it due to their higher crime rates, not the other way around.

States with NO death penalty as of 2006
Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

Compared to New York, New Jersey, Florida, Texas, and rest of the other states. Those states in the list DO NOT HAVE major cities with MASSIVE populations that states (with death penalty) have!! and those states in the list ARE NOT DENSELY as populated as other states – therefore LESS crime rates.

Myth #2: Site claims innocent people were wrongfully sentenced to execution and there’s no chance to compensate him.
Counter-Argument: As for the penal system accidentally executing an innocent person, I must point out that in we live in imperfect world. After all, far, far more innocent lives have been taken by convicted murderers than the supposedly 39 innocents mistakenly executed this century. In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty in this country has ever executed even ONE innocent in the past century! Also consider that thousands of American citizens are murdered each year by released and paroled criminals. There is no doubt whatsoever that keeping murderers alive is far, far more dangerous to innocents than putting them to death.

Case example that happened in past - In 1962, James Moore raped and strangled 14-year-old Pamela Moss. Her parents decided to spare Moore the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole. Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws in 1982, James Moore is eligible for parole every two years! If Pamela's parents knew that they couldn't trust the state, Moore could have been executed long ago and they could have put the whole horrible incident behind them forever. Instead they have a nightmare to deal with annually. I'll bet not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves for being foolish enough to trust the liberal sham that is life imprisonment and rehabilitation.

Myth #3.
Site claims it is expensive to execute a person than to keep him a lifetime in prison.
Counter-Argument: way too long to say it and too many math involved that most of you won’t care to understand so let’s leave at it... unless you want me to. I'll gladly calculate it for you.

Myth #4. ummmm…. I’m gona ignore this because it’s too silly and not really relevant.

PLEASE! Do you homework THOROUGHLY as I did. Let me restate my stand. I am not saying I support death penalty for all crimes. I only want the option of death penalty available on the table for jury/judge/government/victim/public to choose. It is NOT the matter of right or wrong in terms of principle and morality - it's just an OPTION. If somebody murdered your love one and his crime is punishable to either life sentence or death penalty, you CAN ask for life imprisonment. That is why all courts have sentencing hearing before the judges make final decision. In most cases, they respect the family’s decision. No harm done to your strong belief against death penalty.

Obviously, the death penalty issue is hotly debated because the oppositions to it are mainly faith groups. They simply want to abolish death penalty just cuz it’s against their belief. The statistic about crime rates has NOTHING to do with death penalty’s ineffectiveness and they know they need something empirical data to convince the public and Congress. I totally respect your belief that capital punishment is wrong and it is wrong to execute a person but DO NOT waste my time showing me the statistic saying capital punishment does not work and only increase the crime rates UNLESS you can SUFFICIENTLY, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, with overwhelming arguments by experts and reliable data that capital punishment DOES cause crime rates to increase. Then I will support abolishment of capital punishment and join your cause.

Here are some quotes...
"Executing a murderer is the only way to adequately express our horror at the taking of an innocent life. Nothing else suffices. To equate the lives of killers with those of victims is the worst kind of moral equivalency. If capital punishment is state murder, then imprisonment is state kidnapping and restitution is state theft."
-Don Feder

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
-John McAdams

First hole in your logic: psychopathic murderers, or psychopathic criminals of any type, are generally maintained in secure forensic intsitutes, unless they have been convicted to death. If they are under a death conviction, they are housed in secure prisons on death row.

Second hole in your logic: one cannot be psychopathic or anti-social and normal at the same time. It is a diametrically opposed concept. Intelligence is not a dtermining factor in whether a person suffers from a mental disorder such as anti-social personality.

Third hole in your logic: once a person has been executed, the case is closed. There is no evidence because no one looks for additional evidence one the inmate has been executed. Likewise, there is no proof that all 39 were known to be, with 100% accurracy, guilty, either.

Fourth hole in your logic: States with higher crime rates are compelled to have the death penalty in effect because of their higher crime rates. This is circular reasoning and makes absolutely no sense.

Fifth hole in your logic: When crime rate statistics are compiled, they are figured per capita, so that lower and higher population has already been figured in.

Sixth hole in your logic: The quotes you have used are opinion, not necessarily fact. You have presented them as empirical support, which is an incorrect use of resources.

I would understand the math. Please do calculate it for me.

Wikipedia is generally not accepted as valid research. Use valid sources. I will be glad to refer you to some sources. Your homework has not been done as throughly as you think it has.
 
The mother of one girl lives in my community. Every two years she goes thru the torment of a parole hearing.
The decomposed body of 16-year-old Mary Earline Bunch, her hands and feet bound with rope, was found buried on Folly Beach in April 1974. She had been missing since Feb. 20, 1974. The rope used to tie Miss Bunch was similar to that used in the abduction of three 16-year-old girls from Summerville.

The girls told police they were walking on the beach when an armed man approached them and forced them under a vacant house. He then gagged the girls and tied them with clothes line.

Later, one of the girls managed to slip out of her gag. Fortunately, a passing police officer heard her yelling.

The remains of two girls, Alexis Ann Latimer, 13, and Sheri Jan Clark, 14, missing from Folly Beach since May 23, 1973, were unearthed on April 17, 1974. Police found the grave of the two girls a short distance from where the body of Miss Bunch was discovered.

Navy authorities told police of an assault previously reported to them after the Bunch girls' body was found. A suspect, Richard Raymond Valenti, was identified from Navy photos.

Valenti was indicted on three counts of murder for the deaths of the three girls at Folly Beach. He was also indicted on one count of assault and battery with intent to kill and one charge of assault and battery with intent to ravish.

He was also charged on four counts of assault with intent to kill stemming from the abduction of the three Summerville girls and one similar incident in which a girl was found tied up behind the James Island shopping center.

The Charleston County Medical Examiner testified at the Valenti murder trial that the two teen-age girls found buried on Folly Beach died by hanging. In a taped statement, Valenti described how he approached the girls on the beach with a gun and told them if they did not comply with his orders he would shoot them.

He then took them to a vacant house where in an outside shower stall he had them partially disrobe and tied their hands and feet.

Valenti said he made the girls undress and pose in various positions, and then had them stand on a chair while he placed nooses round their neck and tied the rope to water pipes above their heads. Valenti then kicked the chair out from under them and watched them struggle till they died.

On June 2, 1974, Valenti was found guilty of murder in the hanging deaths of the two James Island girls and was sentenced to two terms of life imprisonment, to be served consecutively.

The prosecutor asked for the death penalty for Valenti, which was denied by the judge because of the unconstitutionality of the state's capital punishment law at the time. Valenti was never tried for the four counts of assault with intent to kill stemming from the abduction of the three Summerville girls and the girl from James Island.

Valenti comes up for parole every two years, and his next projected paroled date is Jan. 2, 2008.
Charleston, SC Latest Editorial News: Don't let girls' killer go free
 
This was written in 2000; since then, Valenti has had four more parole hearings that the families had to suffer thru. :mad:
Killers denied parole; Condon wants to space hearings
Published on 01/20/00
BY RICHARD GREEN Jr.
The Post and Courier

Triple-murderer Richard R. Valenti and double-murderer Charles Edward Blake were denied parole Wednesday, and Attorney General Charlie Condon wants them to wait five years instead of two for another chance at release.

"I really think it's an injustice for these surviving victims to have to go through these hearings as often as they do," said Condon, who was the Charleston solicitor who prosecuted Blake and tried to bring up old charges against Valenti in 1986.

Valenti has had seven parole hearings since he began serving two consecutive life sentences in 1974. Blake had his first hearing after serving 15 years of seven consecutive life sentences plus 355 years.

The state already changed the hearing schedule from every year to once every two years for violent offenders. Condon wants to increase time between hearings to five years for those who are serving a life sentence.

"Everyone I think supports keeping them in for life, so why have hearings every two years?" Condon asked after attending the hearings in Columbia.

"He did the crime; he should do the time, regardless," said Lucille Bunch Hopkins, sister of one of Valenti's victims.

Valenti kidnapped and killed Mary Earline Bunch, 16, Sherri Jan Clark, 14, and Alexis Ann Latimer, 13, and buried the bodies near his Folly Beach home.

He was convicted in 1974 of killing Clark and Latimer and sentenced to two life sentences. Prosecutors held back charges involving Bunch and nonfatal attacks on five other women to make sure the Clark and Latimer convictions were upheld, which they were.

After Valenti came up for parole twice, former solicitor Condon tried to resurrect the charges in 1986 that had not been pressed. A judge ruled too much time had passed. Valenti has confessed to those crimes, and the parole board considers them when he comes up for release.

Though the death penalty had been ruled unconstitutional when Valenti went to trial, prosecutors intended to seek it for Blake in 1983. Solicitors Condon in Charleston County and Joe Mizzell in Dorchester County settled for guilty pleas because of evidence problems.

Blake received five life sentences and 295 years in prison, all consecutive, for the rape and murder of Gloria Knight of James Island, and for 18 other charges in Charleston County. In Dorchester County, Blake received two life sentences plus 60 years for raping and murdering Robin Robertson Margiotta of Charleston and kidnapping and raping another woman.

Even if Valenti and Blake were granted parole, both likely would face proceedings as sexual predators, Condon said. That means they could be committed to mental institutions until a judge could be convinced they were cured.

Noncapital murder convictions now result in one of two sentences: 30 years or life, both without the eligibility for parole.
Killers denied parole; Condon wants to space hearings
 
No peace for the families:

Does system make victims of victims?
Published on 09/28/95
BY ELSA MCDOWELL
the Post and Courier

No one can tell Janice Clark that the months she spends every year trying to keep her daughter's murderer behind bars have been wasted.

In her heart, she knows that every signature she gathers and every person who appears in Columbia with her to protest Richard Valenti's parole have helped ensure he doesn't go free.

It's an exercise that Mrs. Clark detests. It means that she lives through the agony all over again. She lives through a year's worth of nights when she went to bed not knowing where her 14-year-old daughter Sherri was.

Then she lives through the darkest moments when she learned what happened in May 1973. Richard Valenti abducted her Sherri on Folly Beach and hanged her under a beach house.

Wednesday, Mrs. Clark felt some relief. The board rejected Valenti's plea for parole. She won't worry about rounding a corner and seeing him in her quiet James Island neighborhood for at least a year.

She wasn't allowed to see him, in blue jeans, boots and a lightweight black jacket, as he spoke quietly to the board. He said he wants to devote the rest of his life to ministry. He wants to help people in need. He knows he's responsible for hurting others.

She and 15 others who made the trip to Columbia to oppose his release saw only the somber faces of the seven board members who announced their decision without hearing a word from the victims. He will stay in prison.

By the book

Parole board members have six criteria for deciding against parole:

Nature and seriousness of offense.

Indication of violence in this or previous offenses.

Use of a deadly weapon in this or previous offenses.

Prior criminal record indicating poor community adjustment.

Failure to complete a community supervision program.

Unfavorable institutional record.

Nothing in their rules calls for measuring how strong community opposition is - how many signatures have been gathered or how many people are there to speak.

Board Chairman Raymond J. Rossi couldn't be reached Wednesday to comment on what impact public opposition has on board decisions. But in the morning session, not one offender was granted parole regardless of whether there was opposition.

In 1993-94, 1,669 inmates doing time for violent crimes appeared before the board. The board approved parole for 379 of them.

Some of them had been rejected several times before being released on parole.

Victimizing victims?

It raises the question of whether victims like Mrs. Clark are being manipulated by a lobby wanting to keep crime in the public eye - whether a woman who has already endured pain most of us cannot imagine is being asked to relive the pain year after year when it's not necessary.

Gayle Orban Fleming says emphatically not. As director of Citizens Against Violent Crime, she goes to Columbia every week. She has seen the board cast its vote to keep someone behind bars because of information she's provided.

She has been to enough hearings to see the weak links. Once a convict reaches the age of 50, the board gets soft. When the convict's time is about up anyway, the board is more prone to release him.

She doesn't have statistics, but she's seen it happen. The board has asked her for input. She has information they don't have.

But Pete O'Boyle, board spokesman, says the board has extensive information including psychological profiles and behavior records from prison. Members get detailed information to review before they hear the first word from prisoners.

Even if you tell Janice Clark, 62, that the board doesn't consider her voice in their deliberations - that they do not mete out justice based on an inmate's popularity - she's not going to quit.

Every year, she's going to start all over again distributing petitions, asking friends and strangers to go on record as opposing Valenti's release. She's going to make the trip, and she won't be alone.

This year, two women Valenti abducted appeared. So did the mother of a third Valenti kidnap victim.

Mrs. Clark has to hear the words. Parole rejected. She has to know for certain that the man who stole her daughter from her remains in prison for the rest of his two life sentences. Life means life to her. Valenti, 52, who has served 21 years and four months, should serve until he dies.

The system can't give her back her daughter. But it owes her some answers.
Does system make victims of victims?
 
Previous story was 1995.

In 2002, the mom still struggles.

Killer denied parole as mother keeps fighting for her daughter
Published on 01/30/02
BY SARAH LUNDY
Of The Post and Courier Staff

Janice Clark lay in bed early Tuesday morning thinking of the man who murdered her daughter Sherri.

When her alarm finally rang at 6:30 a.m., love and determination dragged the retired nurse out of bed and into a teal blouse and skirt.

Another daughter, Paula Marion, 37, was already up and working to get her own two daughters ready for school. Their mother had prepped the young pair the day before — no dawdling before school Tuesday.

Clark — or Bams to her granddaughters — did not need the extra stress of leaving late for Columbia.

Not on Tuesday.

Not on the day of the parole board hearing.

Not on the day Clark pays tribute to daughter Sherri Jan Clark, who was murdered almost 29 years ago on Folly Beach. The silver-haired woman with the no-nonsense attitude must make sure the parole board did not release Richard R. Valenti, 59, the man who brutally robbed Clark of her oldest daughter.

Almost five hours later, Clark and Marion heard the soothing words they long to hear every two years: Parole denied.

Valenti, who first became eligible for parole in 1984, made no effort this year to convince the parole board he is no longer an evil man. He refused to get on the prison bus that would take him to where he could appear before the board via a video link.

"I was first relieved (to learn he refused to get on the bus), but then I was aggravated. He still has control over our lives. He knew good and well I was going to be here," Clark said in her fast-talking, determined manner.

This only drives Clark more to do what she can to make the board understand how much hurt Valenti caused when he murdered 14-year-old Sherri and her friend, Alexis Ann Latimer, 13, in May 1973.

"I feel we've been robbed of a lot," said Clark, 68, whose husband died in 1993. "Sherri would have been involved with Paula's children. She would have been married. I would have had other grandchildren."

"The fight is like a memorial to her," Clark said.

This fight has taken the James Island woman to Columbia so many times she's lost count.

A judge sentenced Valenti in 1974 to two life sentences. After serving only 10 years, he became eligible for parole. For the first three years, he came up every year. It's now every two years — a relief some in Clark's homicide survivor support group do not have.

Clark does not agree with the law, but she's learned to deal with the reality — something she says her training as a nurse has helped her do.

She gears up for the fight about six month before the parole date by sending out petitions that oppose Valenti's release, writing letters to newspapers and calling local television stations. By Tuesday, the parole board received more than 35,000 signatures, letters and e-mails opposing his release. This broke the record set in 2000 with 23,000 signatures.

Clark is quick to say she did not do this alone. She may be the general leading the charge, but she has strong soldiers on the battlefield.

In the last few years, Donna Fetner, 44, one of Valenti's survivors, joined Clark and Marion at the parole hearings. On Tuesday, she sat next to Clark, eyeing the parole board members. The mother of the other slain victim, Alexis Latimer, sent a video opposing Valenti's parole.

Ed Ott also was there. He was a 21-year-old Folly Beach police officer when he found Fetner and two other 16-year-olds tied up under a beach house.

Clark asked him to make a statement to the parole board. They had heard from her in the past, so Clark wanted them to hear from someone else involved in the case. The soft-spoken man told the seven board members that he did not think someone like Valenti could change. He is still a cold-blooded, calculated killer, he said.

Almost a dozen members of the homicide survivors support group created by the Charleston County Sheriff's Office stood behind Marion, Fetner and Clark to show support for Clark. She will do the same for other members' parole hearings.

After the hearing, which only took a few minutes, Clark and her daughter spoke with the media outside. This was the longest Marion had spoken on camera — something she hopes to get better at for her mother. Marion knows she may have to take on the fight once her mother can no longer command.

Clark, Marion, Fetner and the rest of the crew from the homicide survivor group headed to lunch nearby.

They didn't dwell on the hearing. Instead, the group talked about its upcoming picnic and how to come up with money to cover cookies and drinks at their meetings. They filled the restaurant with a relaxed laughter.

By 1:35 p.m., Marion was back behind the wheel of her Toyota Camry, driving her mother home. Clark planned to stay at her daughter's Goose Creek home another night.

In between talks about Sherri, they made plans for the rest of the day. First, Clark would trade her skirt for a pair of jeans before she walked her dog, Coco. The pair would pick up Marion's 6-year-old at school before heading to watch the 12-year-old play basketball. Later, Clark would make chocolate chip bars with the youngest as promised.

As for Valenti, they won't think much of him — yet.

"I can coast for a year and a half and really not think about it," she said with a big smile.
Killer denied parole as mother keeps fighting for her daughter
 
Bond of Sorrow
A support group helps families of murder victims find some comfort in knowing they aren't bearing their loads of grief alone.
Published on 06/10/01
BY JENNIFER BERRY HAWES
The Post and Courier Staff

Janice Clark's young daughter took an evening stroll on Folly Beach with a friend. Her friend's parents called to say the girls were missing.

Vanessa Halyard's telephone rang in the middle of the night with word her son had been shot. Ann Phillips' phone rang with news her son and his new bride had been in "an accident."

In the end, all were dead at vicious hands. One hanged, one shot, one beaten.

The details of each murder are so different. Two are more recent, one decades ago. One killer remains on the loose. The other comes up for parole in January. The third killed himself in jail.

Yet, in the end, the stories are so much alike. The undying grief over a murdered child is the same, that rage and sorrow are the same, the lifetime of wondering what could have been is the same.

And that's what forms an instant bond among these families.

The wounded parents found each other last fall when the Charleston County sheriff's victim services office created a support group for families like theirs.

"We've all got the common bond, through no fault of our own," Clark says.

The group met for the first time in September, drawing about 25 people. "It was very, very intense," recalls Easter LaRoche, victim services coordinator for the sheriff's office.

They continue to meet twice monthly with no agenda, no scheduled speakers. Just a free-flowing conversation among people who share a bond they wish they didn't.

After that first emotional meeting, Halyard drove home crying and crying. Yet, the burden felt lighter.

"It's been a long, hard road," she says.

At least now she knows she isn't traveling that road alone.

COUNTRY MUSIC DREAMS

Robb Phillips used to retrieve the newspaper from his mother's driveway, bringing it to her with a promise: "Some day my picture is going to be on the front page."

Robb had planned to be a musician ever since he was 5 years old and got up in front of his church for an impromptu "Jesus Loves Me." He grew into a teen with a penchant for Western dress and a passion for country music.

A lanky man with bright blue eyes, Robb became a popular singer in the San Diego area where he and his new wife lived. He revered George Strait and formed a band called The Charleston County Band, named after the place Robb loved.

He became known for ending every show singing his idol's "I Cross My Heart," always calling up his beautiful blond wife, Kelli, squatting down and singing it right to her.

At 24, his musical career had been building up to that March 1994 day when he and Kelli drove to the country music capital to meet a producer and discuss a recording contract.

The couple planned to stop in Nashville before heading to South Carolina, where Robb wanted to show Kelli, his wife of just three months, the Holy City's lush beauty.

But Robb never showed up at the recording studio. Kelli didn't show for a catering job she'd lined up.

Kelli's mom called Ann Phillips first. The Tennessee police had called her to say there had been "an accident" in Nashville. Ann thought they'd been in a car wreck.

Hours passed before her doorbell rang. A police officer asked her other son, who was living at home, to step outside. Her first thought was that the son had gotten in some sort of trouble.

Another officer told Ann that Robb and Kelli had been found murdered in their hotel room. They'd been beaten. Kelli had been raped. The killer remained at large.

Ann's best friend hurried over. When Ann opened the door, she saw TV news crews setting up outside her San Diego home. Word was getting out over the country music radio stations. On TV, news of the killings broke in every 10 to 15 minutes, with footage of the body bags being removed.

The next morning, Ann walked down her driveway and picked up the newspaper. She unrolled it and there, on the front page, was Robb's picture. She collapsed, sobbing, in the driveway.

Over the next days and weeks, countless stories would run in the Nashville and San Diego newspapers. Some would be rife with errors that the police told reporters in hopes of throwing off the killer. Things about a hit killing, mostly.

Nor were the police always straight with Ann and David. "When you go to a doctor, you want to know the truth," says David, who adopted his stepson as a toddler. "It's wrong. They should spit it out."

Finally, Ann amassed enough courage - or was it anger? - to ask a detective, "Who died first?" Did her son watch his wife be tortured? Or did he return to their hotel room and surprise the killer?

The police told her that Robb appeared to have died first. It looked as if the couple had been in Nashville barely eight hours, just long enough to check into a hotel and play in a contest at a nearby club. That's where they met a man named Thomas Steeples.

Robb won the contest and called his mom to tell her he'd won $100. He held out the phone so she could hear the music in the background.

Kelli went back to the hotel while Robb ran out to get some food.

A housekeeper found their battered bodies the next day.

Inside the salmon door of Room 112, Robb lay dead with his skull smashed, his body too damaged for his parents to see. Police identified Robb by his fingerprints, Kelli by her dental records.

David often withdrew into a favorite deer stand, a private place where a man can think and pray and let his anger loose. Months passed before Ann could even dress to leave the house.

Finally, David convinced her to join him at a new McDonald's nearby. She put on her fuzzy slippers and robe. He sent her back to dress, and finally she did, taking a small, yet large, step in resuming something like a normal life.

Nashville police finally arrested the 49-year-old Steeples, a computer-supply-store owner who was out on bond for allegedly killing his business partner.

Five months later, Steeple killed himself by ingesting six grams of cocaine smuggled to him in jail while he awaited trial. His suicide left the Phillips with a complicated ending to their nightmare, one that robbed them of any real closure, if closure is possible after your child has been murdered.

Ann left California and returned to Charleston, where David already was, eventually taking a job in the victim/witness department of the solicitor's office.

"This is my justice," she says.

Yet, the woman who once crossed the United States alone now won't go to Wal-Mart after dark.

Seven years later, there are days when she still cannot fathom the gruesome scene, the terror, the fact that Robb is gone.

"In some ways, I still think that I will open the door and he'll be there. Maybe that sounds silly," she says.

And then there's the anger, a constant simmer on some days, a raging fury on others. "There are days when I could tear this house down with my own hands," Ann says.

Robb had two children from his first marriage, and today they are 9 and 11. An aunt made them two scrapbooks to help them know their daddy and how he died.

In one, she tucked the police report and dozens of newspaper clippings that Ann still hasn't been able to read. She can't move her eyes past the headlines that read something like, "Two Slain Bodies Found in Motel."

In the other scrapbook, she put the family's favorite pictures. Many show Robb with a happy Kelli, with her striking blond beauty, the petite body and big eyes that Robb loved - and that most likely drew the killer's eye.

The Phillips also have created something of a shrine. In a bedroom of their West Ashley home hang Robb's military flag, pictures of his children and a large photograph of Robb as a young Navy man. They had framed that picture for Kelli, and she carried it on the front seat of their truck when they left San Diego that day.

When Ann got it back from the police, she had to wipe off the blood.

By the time Robb was killed, Ann already had buried her parents. But this was so different. She rarely goes to his grave and can't look at the tombstone when she does. She doesn't even like to drive the section of Highway 61 near the cemetery.

Her anger brims as she describes how she raised her son to believe in God and to trust in a guardian angel. "Where was his guardian angel?" she fumes. "Taking a coffee break?"

SENIOR YEAR

His mom named him William Townsley Halyard. But everyone called him Tanzy, just like everyone knew him as a health nut poised to join the Army as a commissioned officer, a long-time ROTC member with dreams of becoming a lawyer.

In September 1998, Tanzy was 23 and poised to graduate from S.C. State University. Around 1 a.m., he got off from work at Wal-Mart and joined some friends at a local nightclub. He didn't plan to stay long; he had to pick up his 1-year-old daughter the next morning to spend the weekend with his mother in Charleston.

He was standing in a crowd of nearly 100 people in the parking lot when a man drove by and sprayed the group with bullets. Tanzy fell, along with several others.

At 2 a.m., his mother, Vanessa, awoke to her telephone ringing. It was someone from the Orangeburg hospital. Her son had been shot, and she needed to come.

Vanessa woke her youngest daughter, who was just 12, and drove onto I-26 for the nearly hour-long drive from their North Charleston home. She prayed that her son wasn't hurt too seriously, prayed that she could be there to comfort him.

Vanessa wasn't sure exactly where the hospital was, so she stopped at a gas station. A stranger inside warned, "I think you'd better hurry."

She did hurry. But it didn't matter. Tanzy was dead.

In time, Vanessa managed to dial the telephone number to her work, the YWCA of Greater Charleston, where she's the after-school care director. When she called, several of her co-workers were in a committee meeting to plan their annual campaign called "Stop the Killing and Violence."

Tanzy had been in ROTC for years and was about to be commissioned a second lieutenant in the Army. The day he was killed, he'd called his mother to plan a celebration. Vanessa's brother-in-law, also a military man, was going to return from Saudi Arabia to pin her son.

Instead, he pinned Tanzy in a coffin.

Two young men were killed that night. Yet, from such a large crowd of people, few witnesses came forward. Some who did later changed their stories. Vanessa is certain they are afraid of the killer.

Police arrested a young man and charged him with Tanzy's murder. Then, the Orangeburg sheriff's office failed to notify Vanessa of the man's arraignment - and robbed her of a chance to see him, to voice her pain. She learned about it in the newspaper.

Then came something worse: After a year and a half in jail, the man was released because the solicitor was afraid police lacked the evidence to ensure a conviction.

Vanessa was enraged. But she is no shrinking violet. She picketed the sheriff's office when the sheriff was up for re-election. He lost.

Still, Tanzy's killer remains free.

Vanessa and her close-knit family imagine the shooter is everywhere. They gathered in Myrtle Beach a few weeks ago, packed 12 people into her sister's home and tried to celebrate Memorial Day. But Tanzy was so obviously missing. And his killer seemed to be everywhere.

They tried going out, joining the throngs of people partying at the beach. Yet, the family was consumed by a suspicion that chased them back inside. Was that man over there the killer? Or how about that man?

"He's able to enjoy the holidays, special occasions," Vanessa says. "That's all been taken away from my son."

She talks publicly about Tanzy's murder, pleading that anyone with information will come forward so police can arrest and convict the killer. In the meantime, the anger that has fueled her life for two years still grows unbearable at times.

Today, Tanzy's daughter kisses a picture of her daddy at night before bed. It hangs in her bedroom. She won't remember, but he was the kind of dad who changed diapers and fixed his baby's hair. He shared custody with her mother and cared for his daughter every other weekend and on Wednesdays.

"I think about him constantly, about what could have been and what won't be," Vanessa says. "Your wound just keeps opening. I have no closure."

WALK ON THE BEACH

Janice Clark still lives in the same brick ranch house on James Island where she nurtured her premature baby, that tiny girl born on St. Patrick's Day.

It's the same home Sherri left on May 23, 1973, to join a girlfriend named Alexis Latimer for an evening walk on Folly Beach.

The Clarks thought nothing of it. They knew Alexis' parents, who would be nearby at their beach house. And at 14, Sherri was a responsible child who played in the honor band. They didn't worry about her getting into teen-age sorts of trouble, with her being still so much a flat-chested, naive child with braces and a dusting of freckles.

Janice was asleep, resting before her evening shift as a hospital nurse, when they got the call. Alexis' parents couldn't find the girls, but Alexis' twin brothers were out looking for them.

They were worried but not alarmed.

Then the hours passed. Soon, the police arrived. They labeled the girls runaways.

Hours stretched into 10 months. Janice struggled to keep her family going for the sake of Sherri's 8-year-old sister, Paula. But how do you explain something to a child that you cannot grasp?

As Charleston bloomed into spring 1974, a resident on Folly Beach called police to report surfers in the water after hours. A police officer checking it out heard what he thought was a wounded animal. He peeked under a house and found three terrified 16-year-old girls from Summerville bound and gagged.

Several weeks later, police had arranged a mess of puzzle pieces, causing rumors to fly that they might have found a clue to Sherri and Alexis' case. The Clark home turned into a command center of raw nerves and waiting. Finally, at 1 a.m. one morning, an off-duty police officer called anonymously to say the girls' bodies had been found buried in the sand on Folly Beach.

Still, the Clarks waited to hear an official word from police.

As they waited, Richard Valenti, a 31-year-old sailor stationed at the Charleston Naval Base, held his Bible as he watched police dig the girls' remains from their sandy grave.

The next morning, nine hours later, a relative in California called the Clarks to tell them what was on the front page of their newspaper: The girls' bodies had been found. Still, the Clarks had heard nothing.

Enraged, Janice tracked down the coroner, who finally confirmed it. After 10 months of agony, of waiting, he said he hadn't wanted to disturb them overnight.

Police later arrested Valenti. He told police how he bound and gagged the girls, how he wrapped nooses around their necks and tied them to overhead water pipes under a beach house. Then he kicked a stool out from under them and sat back to watch them twitch.

"That's the manner in which my 14-year-old died!" Janice cries.

He buried their bodies on the east end of Folly Beach, to the left of the Holliday Inn when you head toward the water. The body of another teen-age girl, Mary Earline Bunch, was found nearby.

Valenti also was charged with assault and battery with the intent to kill for abducting the three Summerville girls and for an assault on a Mount Pleasant girl. Those charges were dropped, although he admitted to the crimes.

He was convicted in 1974 of murdering Sherri and Alexis and received two life sentences. Watching Valenti in the courtroom, Janice couldn't help noticing his eyes. They struck her as vacant. They made her think of words like evil and wicked.

When they left the courtroom that day, the Clarks felt some relief. They thought the nightmare was over and their healing would begin.

That was back when Janice Clark was a quiet woman.

Then came 1984.

The Clarks got a phone call they never imagined. After serving just 10 years for two life sentences, Valenti was coming up for parole.

"I learned I had to stand up and be counted," Janice says.

For three years, Valenti's parole hearings came yearly. Then they dropped to every other year. Before every hearing, Janice summons her forces, sending out the petitions and contacting the politicians, the police, the media, anyone who can help.

"I've never had complete closure because every year and a half, I start petitions," Clark says. "Valenti controls my life."

She pauses and adds, "It gets old." And it could very well remain that way for the rest of her life. She is 68. Valenti is 61.

Before his last parole hearing, she collected 23,000 signatures. He comes up for parole again in January. Already, Janice's petitions sit on many a drug store counter.

Over all those years, Valenti has apologized to the parole board, insisted he has found God. He even married and divorced a prison psychologist.

But he's never spoken to the Clarks, never apologized to them.

Not that it really matters. Janice won't ever forgive him. If that's wrong in God's eyes, she says, so be it. Mostly, she fears the parole board will think he's a model prisoner who has spent enough time in prison - and will let him out.

Then, Janice fears, he'll find his way to another beach, to another child like Sherri.

It might surprise some people to know that Janice still goes to Folly Beach - she's always found the waves and the vast sea relaxing.

But she turns right at the Holliday Inn, never to the left.
Bond of Sorrow A support group helps families of murder victims find some comfort in knowing they aren't bearing their loads of grief alone. PH; ONE COLOR PHOTO ILLUSTRATION BY MIC SMITH ONE COLOR PHOTO BY MIC SMITH/ STAFF 501486 From left
 
Wikipedia is generally not accepted as valid research. Use valid sources. I will be glad to refer you to some sources. Your homework has not been done as throughly as you think it has.

You haven't look at "References" selection at bottom of Wikipedia's information on individual page. There are list where most sources are come from.
 
Sentences are delivered based on the crime committed directly against the victim, not effect the crime has indirectly. He was tried for murder, not for the impact of that murder on others. Civil courts deal with that subjective determination of harm. Criminal courts deal with the objectively determined consequences of crime.

There is a reason that family members do not sit on juries, and that they have no input in deciding the sentence. They are not objective. Justice, in its very definition, must be an objective endeavor.
 
I searched the links for murder victim´s families oppose or support death penalty but all what I saw many murder victim´s families oppose death penalty. Could you please provide us the link where murder victim´s family support death penalty because I didn´t find.

Did it occur to you that groups that are "against" something do a lot more promotion for their cause then families who want to grieve in private? I found that even when I plug in a search term on a cause that is "pro" all the "con" results pop up on the first few pages, and the "pro" results are way down the list.


I did typed "Murder victims family support death penalty" but it comes is oppose death penalty...
Exactly. That proves my above point. The opposition groups know how to use the search engines to their advantage.


You really don't know how other parents would react. You can't base other people's feelings and thoughts on your own.
 
I'll kill all of you! Police arrest me!!! Sentence for life? No sweat! I'll even kill everybody in prison! I enjoy it! More punishment me! Thank godness for no death row. BWHAHAHAHA!

That my imagine. :wiggle:
 
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