The Death Penalty

[KarissaMann05]

You and Jillio confuse murder with many different type of killings. We're under assumption that "murder" is a brutal killing of victim in merciless way - wrong place at wrong time. In your example, a spouse killing an abusive person is pretty different.

and believe me - NO JURY will convict her to death penalty. If they did, maybe the prosecutor proved sufficiently that the spouse did not sufficiently sought for help or alternatives to stop him - called police, called for help, run away, etc.

Yes I understand there are circumstances in every case which is why we have choices - It is up to jury, judge, and family to determine the fate of criminal. I don't support death penalty as an answer for everything but I support the option of death penalty on the table.

As for bond font - Why it already did happen before? That person was died by the death penalty because some silly reasons.

If I am wrong or I am "confused", allow me ask you, why is a rate of killing in USA is too high than other countries?

 

[jillio]

said the Liberals... and then they change their minds after traumatic experience. That's what they said for anti-abortions, anti-wars, anti-guns, anti-etc. It's not that you know yourself better than me. Nobody's more right in here. It's just matter of different views and beliefs on same things. It all depends on who is the majority. That's why we have conservatives and liberals, democrats and republicans, and Christian and Atheist.

If one changes their mind, then one did not have the courage of their convictions to begin with. There have also been conseratives, who after witnessing an execution, have revoked their pro-death penaly stance. You seem to be fond of looking at things in neat little categories with black and white answers. Life is not that simple, my friend.

 

[jillio]

Legal definition of murder is US Code Title 18 - "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

Maybe I should rephrase - "You murder, you die for it." Killing in self-defense, murder by complicity, and accidental killing ARE NOT murder. They do not fall under legal definition of murder.

actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary.

All killing of a human being is unlawful, therefore it is all murder. The difference lies in degree. Malice and aforethought are attributable to 1st degree. Manslaughter would apply to accidental death.

But your statement was, "You kill, you die."

You are very confused regarding our legal system. The federal prisons are full of white collar criminals who had plenty of money, big, fine houses, foreign sports cars, imported food on their table along with someone to cook it for them, and all of the finer things in life. How do you account for them being in prison if your reasoning is true?

A prison a sanctuary? Please! You need to visit one sometime.

 

[Jiro]

All killing of a human being is unlawful, therefore it is all murder. The difference lies in degree. Malice and aforethought are attributable to 1st degree. Manslaughter would apply to accidental death.

But your statement was, "You kill, you die."

You are very confused regarding our legal system. The federal prisons are full of white collar criminals who had plenty of money, big, fine houses, foreign sports cars, imported food on their table along with someone to cook it for them, and all of the finer things in life. How do you account for them being in prison if your reasoning is true?

A prison a sanctuary? Please! You need to visit one sometime.

You misunderstood me. You're speaking with a mindset of common man going to prison who have a lot to lose. I said in my previous post - "actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary."

Take a guess what kind of people are they? Yes the poor, uneducated people. I have no concern for white collar criminals going to jail. They deserve what they get. They do not kill people for nothing and they take every measure to avoid getting caught. I'm talking about thugs who kill people for nothing because they simply don't care about ramifications of their actions. Obviously - they have nothing to lose. White collar criminals do.

Actually manslaughter is technically not accidental death but you kill unpremeditated. The justice system has no category to put accidental killing in so they choose manslaughter with different degrees.

A thief robbing a store and then ran out, bumped into somebody but killed him anyway and then ran away. That's homicide or can also be called manslaughter. A drunk driver killing an innocent by mistake. That's Involuntary Manslaughter. A doctor knowingly gave patient a tainted drug that may or may not result in death and then the patient died. That's Criminally Negligent Manslaughter.

A person with agenda to plot to kill someone is murder. Each state/city has their own interpretation of law but those definitions are pretty similar in most ways.

Let me ask you. Am I correct - you do not support mercy killing, do you? (Doctor/Family Member mercifully killing terminally-ill patient when the patient requested for it)

 

[Jiro]

If one changes their mind, then one did not have the courage of their convictions to begin with. There have also been conseratives, who after witnessing an execution, have revoked their pro-death penaly stance. You seem to be fond of looking at things in neat little categories with black and white answers. Life is not that simple, my friend.

Life is full of circumstances. That's why you're given ample amount of time to appeal before you get executed and that's why the judge has discretion to use any options available - life imprisonment, execution, probation, house arrest, etc. Be thankful that we're not the country with one punishment for all crimes like Saudi Arabia or China.

I only believe what the statistic says because numbers don't lie.
Statistic (data from NCADP - National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty and ACLU):

Since 1976 - 1099 executions
2005 - 60 executions
2006 - 53 executions
2007 - 42 executions
(more white people were executed than black people)

Since 1973, 129 wrongfully-convicted people were freed from death row
Since 1970s - 39 people wrongfully executed (estimated - data from ACLU)

Bureau of Justice Statistics - # of executions from 1930~2007
same as above - # of prisoners on death row

So let's do the math... 39 were wrongfully executed... 1099 executions... which means 1060 were RIGHTFULLY executed... that is 96.45% success rate of rightfully executed. According to Columbia University study (no link), we have 95% success rate (95 out of 100 people put to death) that is actually guilty of crimes. I don't know about you but I'm actually pleased with the statistic. Yes I know it sounds cold but you have to face it - world's imperfect. It's still better here than any other countries to be executed where you can be executed for cheating on your husband, stealing, smuggling, etc. Our justice system is imperfect but there's always a room to improve and correct it.

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

Legal definition of murder is US Code Title 18 - "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

Maybe I should rephrase - "You murder, you die for it." Killing in self-defense, murder by complicity, and accidental killing ARE NOT murder. They do not fall under legal definition of murder.

actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary.

The possibility exists that innocent men and women may be put to death. There are several documented cases where DNA testing showed that innocent people were put to death by the government. We have an imperfect justice system where poor defendants are given minimal legal attention by often lesser qualified individuals. We can't risk mistakes. What if the wrong person get sent to prison for the crime he or she didn't do? then what? that kind scary.

 

[jillio]

You misunderstood me. You're speaking with a mindset of common man going to prison who have a lot to lose. I said in my previous post - "actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary."

Take a guess what kind of people are they? Yes the poor, uneducated people. I have no concern for white collar criminals going to jail. They deserve what they get. They do not kill people for nothing and they take every measure to avoid getting caught. I'm talking about thugs who kill people for nothing because they simply don't care about ramifications of their actions. Obviously - they have nothing to lose. White collar criminals do.

Actually manslaughter is technically not accidental death but you kill unpremeditated. The justice system has no category to put accidental killing in so they choose manslaughter with different degrees.

A thief robbing a store and then ran out, bumped into somebody but killed him anyway and then ran away. That's homicide or can also be called manslaughter. A drunk driver killing an innocent by mistake. That's Involuntary Manslaughter. A doctor knowingly gave patient a tainted drug that may or may not result in death and then the patient died. That's Criminally Negligent Manslaughter.

A person with agenda to plot to kill someone is murder. Each state/city has their own interpretation of law but those definitions are pretty similar in most ways.

Let me ask you. Am I correct - you do not support mercy killing, do you? (Doctor/Family Member mercifully killing terminally-ill patient when the patient requested for it)

Well, actually, if you kill someone in a car accident, and you were at fault for the accident, you can be charged with manslaughter. So it does apply to cases of accidental killing.

White collar criminals have more of a negative affect on society than do blue collar criminals. The effects of their crimes are far reaching and widespread. You stated that USA prisons were a vacation, and then you gave the reasons. What exactly did I misunderstand? You are attempting to categorize all criminals and all prisons in the same little narrow definition. That is impossible.

And federal prisons are a part of the Untied States penal system.

And anyone who is imprisoned has something to loose. Their freedom is lost.

Federal law supercedes state or city law.

Regarding the question on "mercy killing"....are you talking about euthanasia, or physican assisted suicide? They are two very different concepts, so I need to know which you are referring to in order to answer your question.

 

[Jiro]

Well, actually, if you kill someone in a car accident, and you were at fault for the accident, you can be charged with manslaughter. So it does apply to cases of accidental killing.
right... and your point being? I merely clarified the legal interpretation of murder and manslaughter because both has completely different punishable offenses. Murder can lead to death penalty but not manslaughter even though it's voluntary.

White collar criminals have more of a negative affect on society than do blue collar criminals. The effects of their crimes are far reaching and widespread. You stated that USA prisons were a vacation, and then you gave the reasons. What exactly did I misunderstand? You are attempting to categorize all criminals and all prisons in the same little narrow definition. That is impossible.
see below

And federal prisons are a part of the Untied States penal system.

And anyone who is imprisoned has something to loose. Their freedom is lost.
see below

Federal law supercedes state or city law.
right.. and your point being? Actually - the state/city do not have to abide by federal law on some cases. For example - death penalty is legal in USA but each state can choose to ban or legalize it. Amendment 2 enables citizens to bear arms but D.C. choose to ban it 100%. But I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Regarding the question on "mercy killing"....are you talking about euthanasia, or physican assisted suicide? They are two very different concepts, so I need to know which you are referring to in order to answer your question.
I believe I was cleared on that subject. "(Doctor/Family Member mercifully killing terminally-ill patient when the patient requested for it)." That is physician-assisted suicide. That is nowhere close to definition of euthanasia. I think euthanasia is wrong. Doctor does not have rights to judge person's life unless you're the next of kin.

To say that "white collar criminals have more of a negative affect on society than do blue collar criminals. The effects of their crimes are far reaching and widespread"... that is HIGHLY subjective because you're implying white collar crimes cause devastating damage to most public. You will need to show me convincing argument with statistic/document/studies because based on my research, blue collar crimes have more negative effect on society than white collar crimes.

Typical white collar crimes - fraud, bribery, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime, and forgery. FBI narrowed the definition of white-collar crime to as "those illegal acts which are characterized by deceit, concealment, or violation of trust and which are not dependent upon the application or threat of physical force or violence." The sole motivation of white-collar crime is MONEY where in most cases - no physical harm done to victims. However, the government does not keep statistic on white-collar crimes because it is highly debatable about what constitutes such crime since it's so broad.

Suffice to say - white-collar crimes DO NOT kill people. blue-collar crimes do. The FBI statistic shows in 2006, there are 490 pending cases (white-collar Fraud crimes) whereas... there are 17,034 murders/manslaughters, 92,455 rapes, 860,853 aggravated assaults, and 1,417,745 violent crimes. So tell me which one is widespread and devastating for community. I suppose those "blue-collar crimes" do not concern you as much as white-collar crimes.

You say "And anyone who is imprisoned has something to loose. Their freedom is lost." Again - You did not carefully read what I just wrote. I repeat again - ""actually - USA Prisons are one big vacation because criminals who go there do not have decent life in public. They do not have any money, no shelter, no food, nothing. That's why they commit senseless crimes because they just don't care anymore. Prisons are their sanctuary." What are you going to do in free world when you're broke, useless, no friends. Your freedom doesn't mean anything to you when you're hungry and you have no roof to sleep under. That is why they resorted to crime without a concern for ramification of their actions. They have NOTHING to lose. White-collar criminals do - their money and freedom. However - most of them don't unfortunately go to jail. Just look at Enron and most of Bush's Republican cronies. Even though they were convicted of fraud, they're still laughing and having beer at their homes. Their punishments are probations, house arrests, or serve jail for a day or 2. They still get to keep most of their money stored at some Cayman Island accounts. But that doesn't bother me much because it's just life. I'm more concerned with thugs around me because your life will most likely be threatened by thugs than a greedy white-collar bastard.


You're kinda digressing a bit from main point. We're mainly debating about death penalty and you were concerned as that you perhaps thought too many people were wrongfully convicted. I've showed my case with statistic data from FBI, ACLU, and Bureau of Justice to correct your misconception and I've argued my case that death penalty is within 95% success rate so the error rate of executing wrongfully-convicted people is within acceptable margin - only 39 out of 1099. Yes I understand one innocent life is too great but like I said - we don't live in Utopia World. The benefit greatly outweighed the error. If the error rate went up to 10%... now THAT is very worrisome and there will be riot at White House!

 

[Chase]

. . . why is a rate of killing in USA is too high than other countries?

It's not higher in the U.S. Statistics vary, but according to the statistic below, the U.S. is 24th.

NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country

Even so, reasons ours statistics compare poorly with many other countries is that our medical and law enforcement uses science and technology many other countries do not have; thus, many murders in those countries are either not reported at all or are reported as natural causes, accidents, suicides, etc.

 

[Jiro]

It's not higher in the U.S. Statistics vary, but according to the statistic below, the U.S. is 24th.

NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country

Even so, reasons ours statistics compare poorly with many other countries is that our medical and law enforcement uses science and technology many other countries do not have; thus, many murders in those countries are either not reported at all or are reported as natural causes, accidents, suicides, etc.

exactly. which is why I strongly urge you to be careful when interpreting statistic because it's all subjective. You mainly need to know 2 things - how is it calculated and what are their criterias.

For example - USA's definition of murder is to kill people with premeditation. Other country may have different definition. So to avoid this confusion or to MINIMIZE this confusion, there are a few reliable sources to read. It is safe to say death penalty in USA is relatively low and forgiving than others.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Myths about the death penalty

Combat Law, Volume 2, Issue 2 -

Myth No. 1: Death Penalty results in reduced rates of homicides, murders and serious crimes in a society.

This is the most common myth which works in favour of imposition of death penalty. Typically, people believe that if there were possibility to be sentenced to death, the prospective offenders would think twice before committing a crime and could even totally give up their criminal intentions. This is what is believed to be the "deterrent effect" of the death penalty and many people believe that deterrent effect of death penalty is a very effective way to prevent murders and similar criminal behavior.

However, in reality, innumerable studies from all over the world have revealed totally different results. In fact, many studies even show the opposite effect, that existence of the death penalty as a punishment is brutalizing society and making it more violent. It is of course impossible to prove with absolute certainty for example how many murders have been prevented or how many people more have been killed because of the death penalty, and further, there are several factors according to criminologist researches, which can affect to criminal activity and criminal behavior and deterrent effect of punishment is only one of these factors. There are, however, several studies showing that there hasn't been any remarkable change, for example, in murder rates, after abolishing death penalty and also several studies go on to prove that threat of death penalty does not have preventive affect for people committing serious offences. What is remarkable is that some studies have even shown results that effect of the death penalty is just the opposite: existence of the death penalty is correlated with increased homicides!

After looking at the available statistics and selecting some very similar countries where factors relevant to causing or preventing criminality are quite similar, and then selecting from amongst those the countries with and without the death penalty, it is possible to make some careful conclusion as to how effective death penalty is in preventing serious offences. For example the western (post) industrial countries (USA, EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Monaco and Liechtenstein) have all abolished the death penalty, except USA, and still, for example, murder rates are much higher in USA than in any of these other, similar, countries.

Of course it is possible to make statements that if the death penalty would not exist even more murders would happen in USA, but it is difficult to find support for this statement from the studies. There has been no remarkable increase in murder rates in those US states which have abolished death penalty. In fact, the survey released in September 2000 by New York Times found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with death penalty has been 48 percent to 101 percent higher than in states without death penalty. Also, the FBI data show that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average (source: Amnesty USA).

Also, for example, in Canada, after the abolition of the death penalty in 1976, Canada's homicide rate has declined. In 2000, there were 542 homicides in Canada - 16 fewer than in 1998, and 159 fewer than in 1975 (one year prior to the abolition of capital punishment). ( Source: Correctional Service Canada. derived from Logan R. Crime Statistics in Canada, 2000, Juristat, Vol. 21 No. 8, Ottawa: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 2001, p. 6; and Tremblay, S. Crime Statistics in Canada, 1998, Juristat, Vol. 19 No. 9, Ottawa: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, 1999, p. 6.)

Some people also believe that the reason USA has such high crime rates is because of the reason that it is easier to get guns or firearms in the USA than in other western countries. That may, of course, be part of the reason, but it still doesn't explain everything: First of all, it is not a big problem to get a gun in Europe either, and secondly guns do not shoot the people themselves: you need a person to get a gun and to fire it.. Then, one may ask, what are the reasons that the deterrent effect is not working? This is mostly because people are not thinking about the consequences and punishment when they are committing serious crimes. Most of the homicides are committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol or in a state of mind, which lowers person's discretion and capability to think clearly, like rage, anger, fear or panic.

Some of the homicides are also committed by children or mentally ill persons who do not understand perfectly what they are doing. There are other types of serious offences, for example murder or homicide, which are done deliberately after carefully planning by clear thinking offender. However, even in these cases the deterrent effect does not work very effectively as either these offenders do not believe that they could get caught or they don't care about the sentence they will get if they get caught. Infact, sometimes if a person knows that the death penalty is waiting for him, nothing will hold him anymore and he could go on to commit more homicides!

Myth No. 2: Innocent people are not convicted in death penalty trials.

It is also often believed that proceedings in the death penalty trials are so meticulously carried out that there is not an iota of scope for error and in practice it is impossible to send an innocent man to death. However, there is no such a thing as 'foolproof' trial as long as human beings are working in the courtrooms, investigating the questions of guilty, testifying, calculating the evidences, or even passing judgments! There is always a possibility of making mistakes and those mistakes have happened several times even during the last few years! Convictions of the people because of wrong or faulty grounds are not fiction. For example, according to some studies, only in the USA, around 100 people been released from a death row because they have afterwards found innocent. It is also common that after getting more proofs, accused are found to be not guilty for the same crime for which they were convicted and it is possible that murder changes to manslaughter, and that one could invite death penalty while other does not. If an innocent person has been sentenced to prison, it is, at least in theory, possible to compensate the wrong judgment passed on that person by releasing him and compensating his lost with money. However, once a person is sentenced to death, then it is final, there is no chance to compensate him even theoretically!

Myth No. 3: It is cheaper to sentence a person to death than keep him a lifetime in prison.

First of all, it is impossible to fix any price on a human life. This by itself is sufficient to explode the third myth! But, even at the other, practical level, it is established that the actual cost of one death penalty case is usually much higher than the cost incurred on an individual serving life imprisonment. This is because of higher pre-trial costs and costs incurred during the court process. In the death penalty cases, states need to guarantee all the possible requirements of the fair trial, much more investigation, much more time, more defence lawyers to protect accused, more prosecutor and more bureaucracy. This means, both, higher investigative costs and higher extra costs during the trial. Also, many times death penalty is ultimately changed to life imprisonment and this means also extra costs after the more costly trial.

Of course, all this depends on the death penalty system of the country. If, in a country it is possible to award death penalty after "normal" trial, i.e., without extra investigations or other extra protections for the accused, the costs of investigations and trial go down, but a system which does not take care of the necessary requirements for the fair trial and procedural fairness especially in death penalty cases, is a system that has failed badly. Also, in any case, in such circumstances, the possibility of faulty sentences is bound to rise, which goes against the myth no. 2.

Myth No. 4: In death penalty cases, the probability of being sentenced to die is the same for everyone.

In theory, equality before the law is guaranteed in constitutions and in international conventions all over the world, which is great if it would work well. However, several studies have found that in death penalty cases, the likelihood to be convicted is much higher for the poor, less educated, ethnic minorities and religious minorities, as compared to the privileged individuals who have been accused of similar offences. Some studies have found that from 80 to 90 percent of the death row inmates are from minority groups and as many as 95 percent are classified as poor. Also, death penalty may be used for political reasons as well. Infact, there are so many possibilities of this kind that only when it is abolished from the law can a person be sure that the death penalty will not be used against him for the wrong reasons!

Myths about the death penalty, from Volume 2, Issue 2, of Combat Law

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Well, that's your opinion as I respectfully disagreed.

What if a murder is grow up in a bad childhood (depend on what his or her story is) while he or she gain no love from anybody else until he or she goes in an insane way to kill a few people on unpopuse? I do feel so sorry for his or his vitisms and this murder. But is it really nesceassry to kill that murder cos what he/she have done? To me, it's too much.

You don't know how (each personal indivinal) murder's tagic and historical story is.

I meant, is it really nesceassry to kill a poor murder *IF* he or she is suffering by his/her spouse's an abusive person is against her/him and, finally, she/he blows his/her mind off and kills him/her. Because he/she can't take it anymore, too bad, he/she have to be putted in death row for it, which is pretty much unfair. I wish I keep that story to share here...

That's why I am against that idea..

*nodding agreement*

 

[Chase]

It's a dog chasing its tail. The "myths," if indeed they are, are only countered by other myths. It's all mostly emotional opinions and very little grounded in facts.

Long, wordy posts, saying the same thing over and over, and serial posts are clues that both dog and tail are starting to drag.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Life is full of circumstances. That's why you're given ample amount of time to appeal before you get executed and that's why the judge has discretion to use any options available - life imprisonment, execution, probation, house arrest, etc. Be thankful that we're not the country with one punishment for all crimes like Saudi Arabia or China.

I only believe what the statistic says because numbers don't lie.
Statistic (data from NCADP - National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty and ACLU):

Since 1976 - 1099 executions
2005 - 60 executions
2006 - 53 executions
2007 - 42 executions
(more white people were executed than black people)

Since 1973, 129 wrongfully-convicted people were freed from death row
Since 1970s - 39 people wrongfully executed (estimated - data from ACLU)

Bureau of Justice Statistics - # of executions from 1930~2007
same as above - # of prisoners on death row

So let's do the math... 39 were wrongfully executed... 1099 executions... which means 1060 were RIGHTFULLY executed... that is 96.45% success rate of rightfully executed. According to Columbia University study (no link), we have 95% success rate (95 out of 100 people put to death) that is actually guilty of crimes. I don't know about you but I'm actually pleased with the statistic. Yes I know it sounds cold but you have to face it - world's imperfect. It's still better here than any other countries to be executed where you can be executed for cheating on your husband, stealing, smuggling, etc. Our justice system is imperfect but there's always a room to improve and correct it.

No matter how many % either high or low they executed but to my eyes, Death penalty is a vengeance, not right punishment. I consider death penalty as a murder the same. Kill is not okay...

Listen, victim's family would get death penalty for kill the killer as a revenage for kill their beloved one because accord the law they do not allow to kill the murder. The judge allows to kill murders, no matter either they are innocent or not. Court would not get death penalty for wrongly punish innocent to death, don't they? It makes no sense to me.

Right punishment is lock them rest of life.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

thing is.... life's funny. It's easy to talk about principles and ethics like that until the situation hits you. A vile criminal brutally murdered your child just cuz your son/daughter just happened to be at scene of crime where he/she saw him and he killed your child to eliminate the witness.

and then he got caught because of security camera or whatever... who knows... you'd want him to have a death penalty. You as the mother of victim are given a choice to speak at the court before the judge finalizes his ruling to decide the criminal's fate - life sentence or death penalty. :Ohno:

Did you read the links about murder victim's families who opposte death penalty in my previous posts?

You can image what if your child is a serial killer and will have death penalty. What do you feel as mother if you see your serial killer child sentence to death? I bet you would want justice to put him/her to jail for rest of life.

 

[Jiro]

Liebling - Good read but... I'm afraid I'll have to dismiss it. We cannot compare our statistic to other countries because of #1 - they do not have the extensive population diversity that we have. #2 - the decline in crime rates are not solely dependent on removal of death penalty as this article claims. $3 - I refuse to listen to any sources with special interest/agenda. (see the last paragraph of this post) Here's my counter-argument.

I'm sure most of us obviously do not want to keep psychopathic murderer alive in maximum-security prison. It will give peace of mind to public if they were executed. Do you want Henry Lee Lucas alive in prison? (he confessed to 3,000 murders)... Andrew Cunanan (murdered 5 people including Gianni Versace)... Gerard john Schaefer (cop who killed 34 women/girls... so on

According to FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, 85% of world's serial killers are in USA. FBI Special Agent John P. Skillestad (serial killer profiler) stated "a lot of people don't realize that there's a lot of people doing this work day in and day out, killing an estimated 14,000 people a year, most serial killers are 'normal' and have very high intelligence levels."

Now that scares me... and you're worried about white-collar criminals, Jillio??? guess what? What I just said up there are subjective and biased. I can use those data from FBI statistic to scare people into believing we MUST keep death penalty, right? same thing with that silly site called "Combat Law"

Please people... do not just blindly use whatever you got from google search as support for your argument. Do not even use the site with special interest because they have agenda and they're notorious for skewing the statistic to favor their cause. Believe me - in debate, first thing they ask is where you get the source from and if you say that you got it from some site called "Combat Law", you just lost the game.

Notice how the site said homicide in states with death penalty has been 48-101% higher than in states without death penalty? They even make their report looks convincing by saying "Also, the FBI data show that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average (source: Amnesty USA)." COME ON GUYS! It's completely taken out of context to word it for their agenda. FBI data is BY NO MEANS saying states should abolish death penalty just cuz the statistic said so. It's just giving you data - completely unbiased. Their argument states that the death penalty does not deter murder. WELL… Dismissing capital punishment on that basis requires us to eliminate all prisons as well because they do not seem to be any more effective in the deterrence of crime.

I’m going to use some lines from Wesley Lowe because he said it better than I can.

Now let's get on with REAL debate with data and then use it to your argument.

Myth #1. Site claims states with no death penalty has lower crime rate than states with death penalty.
Counter-Argument: I must point out that every state is different. These differences include the populations, number of cities, and the crime rates. Strongly urbanized states are more likely to have higher crime rates than states that are more rural, such as those that lack capital punishment. The states that have capital punishment are compelled to have it due to their higher crime rates, not the other way around.

States with NO death penalty as of 2006
Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

Compared to New York, New Jersey, Florida, Texas, and rest of the other states. Those states in the list DO NOT HAVE major cities with MASSIVE populations that states (with death penalty) have!! and those states in the list ARE NOT DENSELY as populated as other states – therefore LESS crime rates.

Myth #2: Site claims innocent people were wrongfully sentenced to execution and there’s no chance to compensate him.
Counter-Argument: As for the penal system accidentally executing an innocent person, I must point out that in we live in imperfect world. After all, far, far more innocent lives have been taken by convicted murderers than the supposedly 39 innocents mistakenly executed this century. In fact, there is absolutely no evidence that the death penalty in this country has ever executed even ONE innocent in the past century! Also consider that thousands of American citizens are murdered each year by released and paroled criminals. There is no doubt whatsoever that keeping murderers alive is far, far more dangerous to innocents than putting them to death.

Case example that happened in past - In 1962, James Moore raped and strangled 14-year-old Pamela Moss. Her parents decided to spare Moore the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole. Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws in 1982, James Moore is eligible for parole every two years! If Pamela's parents knew that they couldn't trust the state, Moore could have been executed long ago and they could have put the whole horrible incident behind them forever. Instead they have a nightmare to deal with annually. I'll bet not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves for being foolish enough to trust the liberal sham that is life imprisonment and rehabilitation.

Myth #3. Site claims it is expensive to execute a person than to keep him a lifetime in prison.
Counter-Argument: way too long to say it and too many math involved that most of you won’t care to understand so let’s leave at it... unless you want me to. I'll gladly calculate it for you.

Myth #4. ummmm…. I’m gona ignore this because it’s too silly and not really relevant.

PLEASE! Do you homework THOROUGHLY as I did. Let me restate my stand. I am not saying I support death penalty for all crimes. I only want the option of death penalty available on the table for jury/judge/government/victim/public to choose. It is NOT the matter of right or wrong in terms of principle and morality - it's just an OPTION. If somebody murdered your love one and his crime is punishable to either life sentence or death penalty, you CAN ask for life imprisonment. That is why all courts have sentencing hearing before the judges make final decision. In most cases, they respect the family’s decision. No harm done to your strong belief against death penalty.

Obviously, the death penalty issue is hotly debated because the oppositions to it are mainly faith groups. They simply want to abolish death penalty just cuz it’s against their belief. The statistic about crime rates has NOTHING to do with death penalty’s ineffectiveness and they know they need something empirical data to convince the public and Congress. I totally respect your belief that capital punishment is wrong and it is wrong to execute a person but DO NOT waste my time showing me the statistic saying capital punishment does not work and only increase the crime rates UNLESS you can SUFFICIENTLY, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, with overwhelming arguments by experts and reliable data that capital punishment DOES cause crime rates to increase. Then I will support abolishment of capital punishment and join your cause.

Here are some quotes...
"Executing a murderer is the only way to adequately express our horror at the taking of an innocent life. Nothing else suffices. To equate the lives of killers with those of victims is the worst kind of moral equivalency. If capital punishment is state murder, then imprisonment is state kidnapping and restitution is state theft."
-Don Feder

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
-John McAdams

 

[Jiro]

No matter how many % either high or low they executed but to my eyes, Death penalty is a vengeance, not right punishment. I consider death penalty as a murder the same. Kill is not okay...

Listen, victim's family would get death penalty for kill the killer as a revenage for kill their beloved one because accord the law they do not allow to kill the murder. The judge allows to kill murders, no matter either they are innocent or not. Court would not get death penalty for wrongly punish innocent to death, don't they? It makes no sense to me.

Right punishment is lock them rest of life.

Refer to my previous post - In 1962, James Moore raped and strangled 14-year-old Pamela Moss. Her parents decided to spare Moore the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole. Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws in 1982, James Moore is eligible for parole every two years! If Pamela's parents knew that they couldn't trust the state, Moore could have been executed long ago and they could have put the whole horrible incident behind them forever. Instead they have a nightmare to deal with annually. I'll bet not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves for being foolish enough to trust the liberal sham that is life imprisonment and rehabilitation.

Again - entirely up to you to determine his fate. Right punishment is NOT life imprisonment. The right punishment is up to victim's decision to choose punishment as deemed appropriate for the murderer's heinous crimes.

Did you read the links about murder victim's families who opposte death penalty in my previous posts?

You can image what if your child is a serial killer and will have death penalty. What do you feel as mother if you see your serial killer child sentence to death? I bet you would want justice to put him/her to jail for rest of life.

I'm kind of appalled at your reasoning. For me - if my child was a serial killer, he is dead to me. I'll disavow him and let the court judges his fate. I will have to spend rest of my life thinking about he has done to victims and victims' families. If he got a life sentence, I'm not even going to visit him once.

Yes I have a strong ethic in preserving a life at all cost but there is a line. For example, if this armed robber was robbing me and I caught him with my gun, I will not shoot to kill unless he shoots first or poses extreme danger to my family. I exercise my rights to shoot with extreme hesitance.

 

[KarissaMann05]

It's not higher in the U.S. Statistics vary, but according to the statistic below, the U.S. is 24th.

NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country

Even so, reasons ours statistics compare poorly with many other countries is that our medical and law enforcement uses science and technology many other countries do not have; thus, many murders in those countries are either not reported at all or are reported as natural causes, accidents, suicides, etc.

#24 is still too high; it still needs to decrease to lower a number like 100th or 70th place.

With that reason link, because of those *some* religious people believed in death penalty is a "sovled a problem" in order to reduce crimes. Just like here, USA, where many people believe in reducing kind of crimes.

To me, it is not. IMO.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Did you read the links about murder victim's families who opposte death penalty in my previous posts?

You can image what if your child is a serial killer and will have death penalty. What do you feel as mother if you see your serial killer child sentence to death? I bet you would want justice to put him/her to jail for rest of life.

For example --
If I am a neglected and abusive parent, if my child's school treats my child like deep shit, if students beat up my child but my child got int trouble for it, if my child have no friends at school, if my child is very loner, and if and if and go on UNTIL

All of sudden, *gasps*, my child is a serial killer!!!

WAAH! I hate my child so much for what he/she have done. I want him / her DEAD for our justice!!!

:roll:

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling - Good read but... I'm afraid I'll have to dismiss it. We cannot compare our statistic to other countries because of #1 - they do not have the extensive population diversity that we have. #2 - the decline in crime rates are not solely dependent on removal of death penalty as this article claims. $3 - I refuse to listen to any sources with special interest/agenda. (see the last paragraph of this post) Here's my counter-argument.

Yes, I know there're many statistic against each other. We need to decide ourselves either one of them are right one.

Those link I provided is the fact because I collect many similar like this for years.

I'm sure most of us obviously do not want to keep psychopathic murderer alive in maximum-security prison. It will give peace of mind to public if they were executed. Do you want Henry Lee Lucas alive in prison? (he confessed to 3,000 murders)... Andrew Cunanan (murdered 5 people including Gianni Versace)... Gerard john Schaefer (cop who killed 34 women/girls... so on

No matter, I do consider death penatly as murder the same if they sentenced serial killers/psychopathic murderer etc. to death. What the justice system made is a vengeance, not right punishment.

I am with Jillio and KarissaMann05. There're high murder/volient rates in America to compare with other countries where death penalty are banned? (Yes I aware there're high murder/volience in the world is South Africa).

I’m going to use some lines from Wesley Lowe because he said it better than I can.

No, I disagree with those link over crime rates to compare with Germany and other countries. Those fact link against your link.

Murder Rate in the United States and Germany - Atlantic Review - Analysis of Transatlantic Relations and U.S. Foreign Policy

Now let's get on with REAL debate with data and then use it to your argument.

Myth #1. Site claims states with no death penalty has lower crime rate than states with death penalty.
Counter-Argument: I must point out that every state is different. These differences include the populations, number of cities, and the crime rates. Strongly urbanized states are more likely to have higher crime rates than states that are more rural, such as those that lack capital punishment. The states that have capital punishment are compelled to have it due to their higher crime rates, not the other way around.

You can work out thru Chase's link.

Case example that happened in past - In 1962, James Moore raped and strangled 14-year-old Pamela Moss. Her parents decided to spare Moore the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole. Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws in 1982, James Moore is eligible for parole every two years! If Pamela's parents knew that they couldn't trust the state, Moore could have been executed long ago and they could have put the whole horrible incident behind them forever. Instead they have a nightmare to deal with annually. I'll bet not a day goes by that they don't kick themselves for being foolish enough to trust the liberal sham that is life imprisonment and rehabilitation.

Well, accord links, many murder victim's families oppose death penalty and want life sentence for murderers but justice system ignored their wishes to follow their law to execute them .

Myth #3.

Site claims it is expensive to execute a person than to keep him a lifetime in prison.
Counter-Argument:[/COLOR][/B] way too long to say it and too many math involved that most of you won’t care to understand so let’s leave at it... unless you want me to. I'll gladly calculate it for you.

You can calcalate it for us if you like to but we know death penalty is expensive than life imprisionment.

Myth #4. ummmm…. I’m gona ignore this because it’s too silly and not really relevant.

PLEASE! Do you homework THOROUGHLY as I did. Let me restate my stand. I am not saying I support death penalty for all crimes. I only want the option of death penalty available on the table for jury/judge/government/victim/public to choose. It is NOT the matter of right or wrong in terms of principle and morality - it's just an OPTION. If somebody murdered your love one and his crime is punishable to either life sentence or death penalty, you CAN ask for life imprisonment. That is why all courts have sentencing hearing before the judges make final decision. In most cases, they respect the family’s decision. No harm done to your strong belief against death penalty.

Respect? I would suggest you check the links, I provided about murder victim's families's stories in my previous posts. They shared their experience... It's fact link... Their wishes are being ignored by justice system.

Obviously, the death penalty issue is hotly debated because the oppositions to it are mainly faith groups. They simply want to abolish death penalty just cuz it’s against their belief. The statistic about crime rates has NOTHING to do with death penalty’s ineffectiveness and they know they need something empirical data to convince the public and Congress. I totally respect your belief that capital punishment is wrong and it is wrong to execute a person but DO NOT waste my time showing me the statistic saying capital punishment does not work and only increase the crime rates UNLESS you can SUFFICIENTLY, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, with overwhelming arguments by experts and reliable data that capital punishment DOES cause crime rates to increase. Then I will support abolishment of capital punishment and join your cause.

I respect your view but I know for the fact that death penatly is a vengance.

Here are some quotes...
"Executing a murderer is the only way to adequately express our horror at the taking of an innocent life. Nothing else suffices. To equate the lives of killers with those of victims is the worst kind of moral equivalency. If capital punishment is state murder, then imprisonment is state kidnapping and restitution is state theft."
-Don Feder

Death penatly can't bring your belove one back forever but bitter and revenage.

"If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
-John McAdams

It's also murder as well if the murderer are execute by the law because it teach kill is okay.