The Deaf Community

Wirelessly posted

posts from hell said:
souggy said:
Wirelessly posted



He might be talking about a certain British blogger.
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I have no idea about who and what is blogging. i dont keep up with that
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I don't blame you. I need to find something more productive than reading blogs on this end.

Anyway, it's not the first time someone said Deaf culture is an American-only concept. Sad. If only they took Anthropology 101, then they would see how wrong they are.
 
Daredevel7 said:
I know I'm way behind on this thread and I don't mean to derail it more, but I just wanted to answer and say that for me, primary ASL --> secondary oral is definitely the more reliable result in terms of education, social, and language development.
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I'm way behind on this thread too, but why not ask the kids? I think we are greatly underestimating them.
 
Beowulf said:
I'm way behind on this thread too, but why not ask the kids? I think we are greatly underestimating them.
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I'm not sure what you mean? It's so hard to assess whether a different path would be "better" for a single individual. Too bad that we can't have a ghost of future to visit us to show us what life would be like if a certain event happened. We can only guess, and I'm guessing for most kids, ASL first then develop oral skills approach is the most reliable. The key word is reliable since ASL is accessible to most, if not all, deaf kids.

Are you saying to ask them what they want? or ask them in the later years if the approach is right for them?
 
Daredevel7 said:
I'm not sure what you mean? It's so hard to assess whether a different path would be "better" for a single individual. Too bad that we can't have a ghost of future to visit us to show us what life would be like if a certain event happened. We can only guess, and I'm guessing for most kids, ASL first then develop oral skills approach is the most reliable. The key word is reliable since ASL is accessible to most, if not all, deaf kids.

Are you saying to ask them what they want? or ask them in the later years if the approach is right for them?
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What I mean is, I have always heard that toddlers are linguistic geniuses. Why are we worried they are handling too much in learning more than one language?
 
Daredevel7 said:
I'm not sure what you mean? It's so hard to assess whether a different path would be "better" for a single individual. Too bad that we can't have a ghost of future to visit us to show us what life would be like if a certain event happened. We can only guess, and I'm guessing for most kids, ASL first then develop oral skills approach is the most reliable. The key word is reliable since ASL is accessible to most, if not all, deaf kids.

Are you saying to ask them what they want? or ask them in the later years if the approach is right for them?
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approximately 3-5 years old is the time limit for language acquisition. After that.... it'll be harder.

with diligence and patience - I don't see any harm in learning both during that age period unless one is struggling with a certain method of communication.
 
Jiro said:
approximately 3-5 years old is the time limit for language acquisition. After that.... it'll be harder.

with diligence and patience - I don't see any harm in learning both during that age period unless one is struggling with a certain method of communication.
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Both what? Both ASL and written English or both ASL and spoken English?

If it is the latter, define "struggling" with spoken English. I would imagine spoken English does not come that easy to most little deaf ones.....

This is why I'm talking about priorities. "Oh look, little Sally has a hard time with oral skills. Forget about speech therapy then. Ill just enroll her in soccer instead."

That's what I'm talking about. Written English is a very high priority. It shows. Even kids who struggle with writing/reading English still are forced to keep working at it because we view it as a very important skill.
 
rockdrummer said:
English literacy has to be a priority at some point.
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Its always a priority. Look in China, they're required to learn the broken chinese language AND english. They're doing fine, and oddly yet, they're doing better than americans.

Indian people too.. they have english down pat. So do the europeans too..

my point - they are MULTIliginual.. Why cant we?

Oh because we have to beat english like a dead horse?
 
faire_jour said:
The idea that I am "prejudiced" is ridiculous. I support and advocate for ASL. My daughter uses ASL. She attended a bi-bi school. I took classes to become fluent in ASL so my daughter could communicate with me no matter what. I push for ASL with other parents so hard that I have been warned by other groups (and even on this very forum) that I was talking too heavily about the cons of oral only (cognitive issues, delays, permanente literacy issues) that it was scaring the poor newbies.

This is all because I choose to support parents and families REGARDLESS of their choice. I believe that ALL choices (even holy ASL) have downsides. I believe that children can be, and are, successful using MANY different languages and modalities. I believe that the key is early identification, motivated parents, shared language and access to high quality professionals. And I believe that is true for regardless of whether a parent choices an AV lifestyle or voice off ASL with no therapy or amplification.

There is no one right way. Anyone who believes that there are no downsides to their "path" is either a fool or a liar. You have no idea why a parent makes the choices they do, you have no idea the complications in their life, or the resources available to them. Who are you to judge?

Yes, I believe that oral only can work. Why? Because I have met SO MANY deaf adults who grew up and are oral and are happy about it. They advocate for oralism for other children. Yes, you (general you) may have grown up and hated it, struggled every day and then were ecstatic when you found the ease of communication that came with ASL. YES, I BELIEVE YOU! That is why I chose to give ASL to my daughter, so that no matter what she could always understand and communicate. But guess what, there are many others who have a totally different experience. I accept that. People have different experiences. Who am I to deny their happiness?

I have met adults on both sides. Deaf teachers of the Deaf on both sides, deaf people who know ASL on both sides. I have seen successful children using SEE, ASL, cuing, TC and spoken language. I have seen successful teens and young adults using all modalities as well. I know deaf people who advocate for each one of those things. So, in this messy world, why is it so horrible that I believe that a family should chose what works for THEIR child? I have NEVER advocated staying with a method that is failing, or even advocated for eliminating a choice.

The "prejudice" and "bias" you believe you see is actually seeing ALL perspectives rather than one.
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FJ, Thank you for your response. It is good to see such a detailed post on your views. However, many a time on this forum we have been lead to believe due to the undertones implied in the majority of your posts that you have your hackles up whenever 'deaf identity' is addressed. That is where 'prejudice and bias' came in, because you clearly advocate total immersion into the hearing world. Having said that, I too believe, as I have mentioned in my previous posts. that you must choose what works for you - as long as in my opinion (due to a common experience shared by many here) that it does not enforce on the child that being deaf is something to be ashamed of.

My parents when I was young made the best choices they could make from the information given them. The point is that the hearing professionals did not give all the options available because they excluded any information of the Deaf Community, Deaf schools, and Sign Language. We didn't even know it existed. I am advocating that people be more informed and aware of the Deaf community and culture and the 'identity' that is so necessary for a deaf child or person's self-esteem.

FYI, I have 7 children ages ranging from young adults, teenagers, a preteen and a seven year old (all hearing) and a husband who is also hearing. I am the only deaf person in my family. How can you say that "I have no idea why a parent makes the choices they do, or that I have no idea the complications in their lives, or the resources available to them and who am I to judge"?

It is good that we have both had the opportunity to clear the air with each other and for others on this forum.
 
posts from hell said:
Its always a priority. Look in China, they're required to learn the broken chinese language AND english. They're doing fine, and oddly yet, they're doing better than americans.

Indian people too.. they have english down pat. So do the europeans too..

my point - they are MULTIliginual.. Why cant we?

Oh because we have to beat english like a dead horse?
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Isn't that more of a complaint towards the American culture? Not so much the hearing people?

To be quite honest, the fact that English being our main language actually screws us from being forced to be multilingual. Asians and Europeans are required to know English from schools. We do have language classes but it's optional (and forgettable too). If schools were taught in other languages and we had English at home, you bet your bippy that we'd be multilingual. My family is bilingual just because we speak English in school and speak Spanish at home. So simple!

But again.. that's a complaint for the American culture...
 
Daredevel7 said:
Isn't that more of a complaint towards the American culture? Not so much the hearing people?

To be quite honest, the fact that English being our main language actually screws us from being forced to be multilingual. Asians and Europeans are required to know English from schools. We do have language classes but it's optional (and forgettable too). If schools were taught in other languages and we had English at home, you bet your bippy that we'd be multilingual. My family is bilingual just because we speak English in school and speak Spanish at home. So simple!

But again.. that's a complaint for the American culture...
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Why do we have such a hardon for the english language? it's screwing the deaf over :)
 
posts from hell said:
Why do we have such a hardon for the english language? it's screwing the deaf over :)
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Blame our nativist forefathers.

Remember the whole "Germans are going to take over!" "Irish are taking over!" "the Italians are taking over!" "the Poles are talking over!" "the Chinese are taking over!" immigration scares?

I guess now it's Muslims and Latin Americans.
 
posts from hell said:
Why do we have such a hardon for the english language? it's screwing the deaf over :)
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I know what ya mean but what does this say about those within the culture who wholeheartedly support the bi-bi concept? Mere lip service and, therefore, hipocrisy? Just thinking out loud here....
 
HHIssues said:
Force him to be someone he's not? Isn't that kind of saying that there is this "deaf identity" that should apply to all deaf people, particularly deaf children? And if they do not have this "deaf identity" that you think all deaf children should have, he or she is being forced to "be someone they're not". Just cause you may have some cultural ties indicate you have the right to apply this "deaf identity" on all deaf people, particularly on all deaf children...
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hence the better reason to give all deaf/hoh children exposure to both so that can have the opportunity to decide for themselves on which identity they want to associate with instead of people forcing the identity on them by limiting them to one exposure.

In addition to that, the less risks the children are in for language delays or deficits, the better. Why wouldnt you advocate for that?

You seem to have trouble understanding what I am advocating for.
 
posts from hell said:
You see, she was raised oral and now finds happiness in what she preaches.. Sorry you don't see it this way.
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Yeppers..I was forced to adopt a hearing identity so I spent all of my life trying to be as hearing as I could.
 
Wirelessly posted

faire_jour said:
BecLak said:
I was responding to #524 - Which quotes you, FJ, and PFH's response to your comment about him.

I don't see you as an easy target, I see that you have a very prejudicial bias that you insist on pushing on others, which distracts from the topic of the thread and into petty arguments that are of no worth. I am not alone in saying you refuse to see yourself.
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The idea that I am "prejudiced" is ridiculous. I support and advocate for ASL. My daughter uses ASL. She attended a bi-bi school. I took classes to become fluent in ASL so my daughter could communicate with me no matter what. I push for ASL with other parents so hard that I have been warned by other groups (and even on this very forum) that I was talking too heavily about the cons of oral only (cognitive issues, delays, permanente literacy issues) that it was scaring the poor newbies.

This is all because I choose to support parents and families REGARDLESS of their choice. I believe that ALL choices (even holy ASL) have downsides. I believe that children can be, and are, successful using MANY different languages and modalities. I believe that the key is early identification, motivated parents, shared language and access to high quality professionals. And I believe that is true for regardless of whether a parent choices an AV lifestyle or voice off ASL with no therapy or amplification.

There is no one right way. Anyone who believes that there are no downsides to their "path" is either a fool or a liar. You have no idea why a parent makes the choices they do, you have no idea the complications in their life, or the resources available to them. Who are you to judge?

Yes, I believe that oral only can work. Why? Because I have met SO MANY deaf adults who grew up and are oral and are happy about it. They advocate for oralism for other children. Yes, you (general you) may have grown up and hated it, struggled every day and then were ecstatic when you found the ease of communication that came with ASL. YES, I BELIEVE YOU! That is why I chose to give ASL to my daughter, so that no matter what she could always understand and communicate. But guess what, there are many others who have a totally different experience. I accept that. People have different experiences. Who am I to deny their happiness?

I have met adults on both sides. Deaf teachers of the Deaf on both sides, deaf people who know ASL on both sides. I have seen successful children using SEE, ASL, cuing, TC and spoken language. I have seen successful teens and young adults using all modalities as well. I know deaf people who advocate for each one of those things. So, in this messy world, why is it so horrible that I believe that a family should chose what works for THEIR child? I have NEVER advocated staying with a method that is failing, or even advocated for eliminating a choice.

The "prejudice" and "bias" you believe you see is actually seeing ALL perspectives rather than one.
Click to expand...

Great post. Great message! I wholeheartedly agree.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Both what? Both ASL and written English or both ASL and spoken English?

If it is the latter, define "struggling" with spoken English. I would imagine spoken English does not come that easy to most little deaf ones.....

This is why I'm talking about priorities. "Oh look, little Sally has a hard time with oral skills. Forget about speech therapy then. Ill just enroll her in soccer instead."

That's what I'm talking about. Written English is a very high priority. It shows. Even kids who struggle with writing/reading English still are forced to keep working at it because we view it as a very important skill.
Click to expand...

This is a very good question. To me, it is important. I believe that spoken English is a useful language, one that will benefit my child everyday for the rst of her life. I think the effort is worth it, as long as she is still learning and enjoying it.
 
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