Terrorist attack foiled aboard U.S. jetliner

My fire fighting crew I was with in 2007 at the Tripod Complex fire were was faced a real situation of fire entrapment but because of our training and an excellent crew boss we were able to quickly extricate ourselves from an extremely dangerous situation. We literally had a minute or two to spare before showers of embers came down prior to a wall of fire erupting into a blowup. It was actually blowing up behind our backs as we got the heck out. I documented all this with pictures and narrative in my blog. We got out fast and soon boarded our crew bus not wasting time to put our tools in the cache area underneath the bus before taking off into an already blackened "safe zone" There was another but different crew we spotted on our way out on foot and they were in a panicky run due to their inexperience and/or probably due to a green or poor crew boss. Until you actually been in such a dangerous situation you don't know how you'll react, but training kicked in along with an experienced crew boss saved our butts that day.

wow cool story. Your firefighting experience might be useful in this scenario because his Fruit of the Loon was on fire.

But this thread is about Flight 253. You and I were talking about something specific - people responding in sudden stressful moments in plane with terrorist(s). and I was asking you a very specific question so I'll say it again - "I'm very curious to know what your imagination is when it comes to that sudden stressful moments."
 
I just gave you an example.

ok. I'll have to point out that the 3 flights including Flight 253 (1 was tragically perished but White House was saved) were successfully averted by the passengers... with no counter-terrorism training. just pure survival instinct. That's my real world scenario right there to substantiate my assumption about "system" and people.
 
Here are some more examples during a normal flight when some just cannot handle the stress of being on a plane in midflight.

Nude, crazed airplane passenger - Boing Boing

The Brooklyn Nomad Blog Archive One Odd Day In The Sky

Airline Apologizes for Passenger Tantrum Video Appearing on YouTube - not on an airplane but certainly couldn't handle the stress of missing a flight.

plane crash warning Panic broke out on an Aer Lingus flight to Paris - eTurboNews.com
- passengers freaked out over a false emergency landing announcement.

And of all people....
Watch: YouTube - Airline Panic Attack - Mixx
 
ok. I'll have to point out that the 3 flights including Flight 253 (1 was tragically perished but White House was saved) were successfully averted by the passengers... with no counter-terrorism training. just pure survival instinct. That's my real world scenario right there to substantiate my assumption about "system" and people.

Again, the "system" is a proactive approach, not reactive when it comes to security measures. It's a preventative approach to make sure such a scenario doesn't happen while on a plane. This is what failed miserably. Janet Napolitano admitted that.

Not everyone react the same "pure survival instinct" when it comes to either a fight or flight response. Many will simply break down unable to function coherently. Many will rise up to their fighting instinct for survival. Those with training are much better to respond such a stressful situtation. This is a fact based on human psychology and we are likely to respond. I've seen it first hand the results in an extremely stressful and sudden scenario more than once.
 
Again, the "system" is a proactive approach, not reactive when it comes to security measures. It's a preventative approach to make sure such a scenario doesn't happen while on a plane. This is what failed miserably. Janet Napolitano admitted that.

Not everyone react the same "pure survival instinct" when it comes to either a fight or flight response. Many will simply break down unable to function coherently. Many will rise up to their fighting instinct for survival. Those with training are much better to respond such a stressful situtation. This is a fact based on human psychology and we are likely to respond. I've seen it first hand the results in an extremely stressful and sudden scenario more than once.

yes but then again...

1. 3 flights with terrorists have been subdued and successfully averted by passengers

2. the ultimate fault lies on Dutch ticket agent for letting him aboard the flight with no passport

3. shall we play merry-go-around again?
 
Flight 253 was spared only because a detonator malfunctioned, and certainly that allowed the passengers the upper hand to successfully subdue the terrorist. Otherwise it'd be a big hole in the plane and would most likely cause a series of cascading events in the eventual break up (or explosion) of the airplane in midflight. This built in security system that I'm talking about as well as Janet Napolitan and other security experts do not include passengers. This is because this "system" is a proactive measure, not a reactive one. What you keep referring to is a reactive instance after the fact when preventive measures actually failed along multiple points that led up to a bomb allowed to get through. That in of itself an example of a failure or breakdown in a "system." It didn't simply fail at the Dutch ticket agent. There were numerous supposedly built-in security protocols that were breached along the way.

The system failed. Officials admitted to that already. And yet you cannot bring yourself to call this "system" a failed example? Then it's a success according to you?
 
I hate to say this but I don't know why all the reporters and news call this a foiled plot! More like the IED he was carrying failed. Had this been a working device, I don't think this would have been foiled at all! I commend the one who tackled him though. He might have had a second device.

that true,if the device had been working it will have been another story,may BE GOD DID NOT WANT THE PLAN TO SUCCESS
 
Here are some more examples during a normal flight when some just cannot handle the stress of being on a plane in midflight.

Nude, crazed airplane passenger - Boing Boing

The Brooklyn Nomad Blog Archive One Odd Day In The Sky

Airline Apologizes for Passenger Tantrum Video Appearing on YouTube - not on an airplane but certainly couldn't handle the stress of missing a flight.

plane crash warning Panic broke out on an Aer Lingus flight to Paris - eTurboNews.com
- passengers freaked out over a false emergency landing announcement.

And of all people....
Watch: YouTube - Airline Panic Attack - Mixx

yes - we're bound to have a cuckoo on flights anytime, anywhere - bus, train, malls, etc. However - not a single incident you listed there is related to terrorism. But I'll play along with you - all of these incidents you listed above... were subdued by passengers and flight crew... and the flights were able to landed safely. no lives were lost. some brave passengers have reacted proactively and instinctively to subdue the problem.

but damn... about your last link - I remember that. I believe it was posted and discussed in AD quite a while back before you joined AD. Looks like a case of panic attack :dunno:

again - still no substantial example that disputes my assumption about the people in sudden stressful scenario in plane with terrorist(s). 3 flights. successfully averted by passengers.
 
Killing terrorist is not an answer because we need him for intelligence information and evidences which will help us to search for other terrorists and stop them from planning and attacking on us.

true talk
 
Al-Qaeda takes responsibility for Umar Farouk "al-Nigiri" (the Nigerian) Mutallab's U

Al-Qaeda, the infamous terrorist group behind the September 11 US bombings, in which thousands died, on Monday claimed responsibility for the failed Christmas Day attack in which Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tried to blow up an airliner as it landed in Detroit.

According to an Internet statement on Islamist websites, the organisation said it had given "Umar Farouk al-Nigiri" (which translates to ‘the Nigerian'), a "technically advanced device" which however failed to work at full capacity.

The group claimed the attack was in reaction to U.S. attacks on its Yemen arm.
The news corroborates earlier statements credited to Mr. Muttalab during his preliminary interrogation by US authorities

On trial
Also, on Monday, the United States District Court for the East District of Michigan yesterday cancelled its first hearing on a case filed by the FBI against Mr. Mutallab.

No reason was given for the cancellation of the hearing, which was scheduled to hold before U.S. District Judge Paul Borman.

"The hearing has been cancelled," said U.S. Attorney's spokesperson Gina Balaya. "I was not given a reason for the cancellation."

But media reports state that prosecutors are aiming to get a search warrant to enable them to collect DNA from Mr. Abdulmutallab, who is being held in a federal prison in Michigan. This is presumably to determine if Mr. Abdulmutallab has links to other crimes or terror plots prior to his arrest on December 25.

In an affidavit dated December 26, 2009, Special Agent James Peissig of the FBI submitted the facts of the case against Mr. Abdulmutallab as follows: "that Mr. Mutallab was in violation of US Code Title 18, Section 32, which is the destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facilities, or the willful attempt to do so."

Bail for Mr. Abdulmutallab is scheduled to be set at a January 8 hearing in Detroit.
Tracing the failure

Meanwhile, U.S. and British authorities admitted that lapses in visa and airport security systems may have allowed Mr. Abdulmutallab's preparation for his plot to go unnoticed.

In a television interview on NBC's Today Show, when asked if the system "failed miserably," U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano replied: "It did. And that's why we are asking - ‘how did this individual get on the plane? Why wasn't the explosive material detected? What do we need to do to change?" The last question referred to the security watch list rules.British Home Secretary Alan Johnson confirmed that Mr. Abdulmutallab had been put on a U.K. watch list after he was refused a student visa following an application to study at a bogus college. But he was still able to get a U.S. visa, which was issued in London.

Also, an investigative report by America's CBS News yesterday revealed that the State Department system designed to keep track of active U.S. visas twice failed to reveal that Mr, Abdulmutallab had been issued an active visa allowing him multiple entries into America.

"According to a law enforcement source, the first failure came on November 19, 2009, the very same day (Mr.) Abdulmutallab father's, Dr. Umaru Mutallab, a prominent banking official in Nigeria, expressed deep concern to officials at the U.S. Embassy in Abjua, Nigeria, that his 23-year-old son had fallen under the influence of "religious extremists" in Yemen," the report read in part.

According to CBS News, "the second failure to flag an active visa belonging to Abdulmuttalab occurred the very next day - November 20 - in Washington after Dr. Mutallab's concerns were forwarded to officials there. It was only after the Christmas Day terror attack in Detroit that U.S. officials learned that Abdulmuttalab had been issued a visa by the U.S. Embassy in London valid from June 16, 2008 through June 12, 2010."

Mr. Abdulmutallab was on a broad U.S. terrorist watch list but he was not designated for special screening measures or placed on a no-fly list because of a dearth of specific information about his activities, Ms. Napolitano said.

A White House spokesman said President Barack Obama had ordered a review of how suspects' names are added to counter-terrorism watch lists.

Amsterdam airport speaks
Officials of the Schipol Airport in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, where Mr. Muttalab's flight passed enroute to Detroit, also spoke on the issue.

The CNBC reports that "spokesperson Marianne Debie confirmed that the reason the airport does not use scanners on American flights is because the "US government did not approve the use of the machines for American passengers."

Ms. Debie also said there is strong opposition to widespread use of the machines by the European Union due to privacy concerns. Germany refuses to use the machines, for instance.

She revealed that following the incident, the airport now has 17 scanners, and is working to obtain advanced scanners that are more anonymous. Ms. Debie also said Schipol airport wants to use the scanners everywhere but scanning is voluntary for those subjected to it; officials believe it should not be voluntary.
 
Security Expert Bruce Schneier on Northwest Bombing Attempt
For years I've been saying this: Only two things have made flying safer [since 9/11]: the reinforcement of cockpit doors, and the fact that passengers know now to resist hijackers. This week, the second one worked over Detroit. Security succeeded. This assumes, of course, that al-Qaeda will target airplanes for hijacking, or target aviation at all. "We defend against what the terrorists did last week," Schneier said. He believes that the country would be just as safe as it is today if airport security were rolled back to pre-9/11 levels. "Spend the rest of your money on intelligence, investigations, and emergency response."

Bruce Schneier's Background
Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist and author. Described by The Economist as a "security guru," he is best known as a refreshingly candid and lucid security critic and commentator. When people want to know how security really works, they turn to Schneier.

His first bestseller, Applied Cryptography, explained how the arcane science of secret codes actually works, and was described by Wired as "the book the National Security Agency wanted never to be published." His book on computer and network security, Secrets and Lies, was called by Fortune "[a] jewel box of little surprises you can actually use." Beyond Fear tackles the problems of security from the small to the large: personal safety, crime, corporate security, national security. His current book, Schneier on Security, offers insight into everything from the risk of identity theft (vastly overrated) to the long-range security threat of unchecked presidential power and the surprisingly simple way to tamper-proof elections.

Regularly quoted in the media, he has testified on security before the United States Congress on several occasions and has written articles and op eds for many major publications, including The New York Times, The Guardian, Forbes, Wired, Nature, The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Boston Globe, The San Francisco Chronicle, and The Washington Post.

Schneier also publishes a free monthly newsletter, Crypto-Gram, with over 150,000 readers. In its ten years of regular publication, Crypto-Gram has become one of the most widely read forums for free-wheeling discussions, pointed critiques, and serious debate about security. As head curmudgeon at the table, Schneier explains, debunks, and draws lessons from security stories that make the news.

looks like the "system" worked after all... too bad the right-wingers had to nitpick and take it out of context, forcing Napolitano to reword it just to stroke their ego :roll:
 
mjn4mf.jpg


it's not the colossal technological failure. it's not the colossal system failure. it's the colossal human error.... the Dutch ticket agent. We can spend millions... if not billions on these fancy expensive security system and gadgets.... but everything has one major flaw - the human error.
 
Airport body scanners can work for searching PETN bags??
 
Airport body scanners can work for searching PETN bags??

yes and no. 2 flaws -
1. it cannot identify the explosive by their chemical signatures
2. it cannot see inside the human body (meaning - they can hide a bomb in their ass. or... just find a terrorist with a tiny dick and then use the prosthetic penis to hide the bomb in order to fool the scanner :lol: )

Remember - it's just a scanner.. like an x-ray except it can't see thru the body. It's up to screeners to warrant a further inspection or not. Here's a sample of what scanner image looks like -

090401-scan-image-02.jpg


Like I said in my previous post - everything has one major flaw - the human error. The screener MAY or MAY NOT miss the object hidden in his underwear.
 
to EFFECTIVELY detect the explosive material on a person, one has to go thru an air chamber for chemical analysis like what I went thru at US Mint (Treasury Department) in Philadelphia. It's a cylinder glass chamber where I have to enter and it closes the door... and then there's a massive sudden burst of air from ground blowing at me... I have to wait for a several seconds for computer to do chemical analysis.. and then the door opens to let me into Treasury Department for mint tour. I find the experience quite amusing!

Very time-consuming. Very expensive. Very impractical. for airports.
 
Al-Qaeda, the infamous terrorist group behind the September 11 US bombings, in which thousands died, on Monday claimed responsibility for the failed Christmas Day attack in which Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab tried to blow up an airliner as it landed in Detroit.

According to an Internet statement on Islamist websites, the organisation said it had given "Umar Farouk al-Nigiri" (which translates to ‘the Nigerian'), a "technically advanced device" which however failed to work at full capacity.

The group claimed the attack was in reaction to U.S. attacks on its Yemen arm.
The news corroborates earlier statements credited to Mr. Muttalab during his preliminary interrogation by US authorities

On trial
Also, on Monday, the United States District Court for the East District of Michigan yesterday cancelled its first hearing on a case filed by the FBI against Mr. Mutallab.

No reason was given for the cancellation of the hearing, which was scheduled to hold before U.S. District Judge Paul Borman.

"The hearing has been cancelled," said U.S. Attorney's spokesperson Gina Balaya. "I was not given a reason for the cancellation."

But media reports state that prosecutors are aiming to get a search warrant to enable them to collect DNA from Mr. Abdulmutallab, who is being held in a federal prison in Michigan. This is presumably to determine if Mr. Abdulmutallab has links to other crimes or terror plots prior to his arrest on December 25.

In an affidavit dated December 26, 2009, Special Agent James Peissig of the FBI submitted the facts of the case against Mr. Abdulmutallab as follows: "that Mr. Mutallab was in violation of US Code Title 18, Section 32, which is the destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facilities, or the willful attempt to do so."

Bail for Mr. Abdulmutallab is scheduled to be set at a January 8 hearing in Detroit.
Tracing the failure

Meanwhile, U.S. and British authorities admitted that lapses in visa and airport security systems may have allowed Mr. Abdulmutallab's preparation for his plot to go unnoticed.

In a television interview on NBC's Today Show, when asked if the system "failed miserably," U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano replied: "It did. And that's why we are asking - ‘how did this individual get on the plane? Why wasn't the explosive material detected? What do we need to do to change?" The last question referred to the security watch list rules.British Home Secretary Alan Johnson confirmed that Mr. Abdulmutallab had been put on a U.K. watch list after he was refused a student visa following an application to study at a bogus college. But he was still able to get a U.S. visa, which was issued in London.

Also, an investigative report by America's CBS News yesterday revealed that the State Department system designed to keep track of active U.S. visas twice failed to reveal that Mr, Abdulmutallab had been issued an active visa allowing him multiple entries into America.

"According to a law enforcement source, the first failure came on November 19, 2009, the very same day (Mr.) Abdulmutallab father's, Dr. Umaru Mutallab, a prominent banking official in Nigeria, expressed deep concern to officials at the U.S. Embassy in Abjua, Nigeria, that his 23-year-old son had fallen under the influence of "religious extremists" in Yemen," the report read in part.

According to CBS News, "the second failure to flag an active visa belonging to Abdulmuttalab occurred the very next day - November 20 - in Washington after Dr. Mutallab's concerns were forwarded to officials there. It was only after the Christmas Day terror attack in Detroit that U.S. officials learned that Abdulmuttalab had been issued a visa by the U.S. Embassy in London valid from June 16, 2008 through June 12, 2010."

Mr. Abdulmutallab was on a broad U.S. terrorist watch list but he was not designated for special screening measures or placed on a no-fly list because of a dearth of specific information about his activities, Ms. Napolitano said.

A White House spokesman said President Barack Obama had ordered a review of how suspects' names are added to counter-terrorism watch lists.

Amsterdam airport speaks
Officials of the Schipol Airport in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, where Mr. Muttalab's flight passed enroute to Detroit, also spoke on the issue.

The CNBC reports that "spokesperson Marianne Debie confirmed that the reason the airport does not use scanners on American flights is because the "US government did not approve the use of the machines for American passengers."

Ms. Debie also said there is strong opposition to widespread use of the machines by the European Union due to privacy concerns. Germany refuses to use the machines, for instance.

She revealed that following the incident, the airport now has 17 scanners, and is working to obtain advanced scanners that are more anonymous. Ms. Debie also said Schipol airport wants to use the scanners everywhere but scanning is voluntary for those subjected to it; officials believe it should not be voluntary.

Please do provide the source link of this copying and paste. Thanks. :)
 
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