So, will the deaf culture be there?

Status
Not open for further replies.
deafskeptic said:
I think jillio is saying that speech is a mode of English. In order to have good English skills though, you have to understand the structure of the language itself.

I don't know if it's just my imagination or not but hearing seem to allow for greater leeway for grammar errors in speech for both hearing and deaf.

If you have a poor understanding of English, it will show up in prose.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what jillio is saying.:giggle: And the rest of your post is on target, as well. Too many people think that spoken language is a language in and of itself. It is a very simple linguisitic truism...speaking is a mode, not a separate language.
 
faire_jour said:
But that is NOT how therapy today works. The therapy my daughter (and all the deaf kids I know, at all the schools she attended) is about LANGUAGE. Today the therapist was working on higher level vocabulary and prepositions. We played games hiding objects and describing if they were "between" or "next to" or "beneath" other objects. Then we played an "I spy" game with vocabulary that was a little harder. We looked for the "sofa" (instead of couch) and the "jacket" (instead of coat). This isn't about whether or not she makes a perfect "sss" sound, it is about learning LANGUAGE.
Click to expand...

Through auditory channels alone. Relying on the weakest sense.
 
faire_jour said:
My daughter is learning English as her second language. ASL was her first.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. You have stated, numerous times, that she was post lingually deaf. Therefore, the first language she was exposed to was spoken English. ASL is not her L1. It is a simple and accepted linguistic principle.
 
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



yeah, that's kinda the idea. At the very beginning you just start with sounds and songs and then teach more advanced language as they progress.

(oh and for the record, three years ago, my daughter was 100% asl. She hasn't been implanted for even 2 years :))
Click to expand...

Then that, by your very description, is articulation therapy, not language therapy.
 
jillo. I thought she was prelingal but with a progressive loss? And faire joure, HAs may not have worked for her, but she still had the advantage of a progressive loss. I actually wonder if a big part of the mixed end hearing results from CI (and we are NOT saying it doesn't work....we are saying that there's huge variance in the hearing they end up with) seen in some kids is b/c they never heard normally even as babies. Most Dhh babies did have a period of time when they might have been able to hear normally. That in turn could procure an advantage with hearing with CI.

But yes you're right jillo.That is what is wrong with oral only. It it HABILITATIVE. Meaning relying exclusively on the weakest sense. It's trying to get dhh and other kids with disabilties to function "normally"It's like..You wouldn't educate a kid who was gifted in English but LD functioning in math, by exlcusively focusing on their math defiencey would you? And yes jillo, you are right. There are some oral only kids who can speak clearly and have sophisticated language(both written and spoken) Especially the ones from families which could be seen as really suburban overacheivers, or where it's expected that Junoir will go to prep school and get some sort of high powered job (and I'm NOT bashing sucess. What I am commenting on is that there are families where kids are exposed to things that will improve their SAT scores...like instead of "just being a kid?" they are overprogrammed and have flashcard sessions and all that sort of stuff.)
However, oral only is still defiencent on how to teach dhh kids proper grammar and syntax. It's still common for oral only kids to say stuff like " How many spiders have legs?" for " how many legs do spiders have?" ..and their written language......not great!
 
With genetic screens, advancements in stem cell research (not the embryo kind mind you), and hearing aid progression, you can expect the 'deaf population' to somewhat dwindle. It has been said that in 30 to 40 years, I could potentially have "natural hearing" even though I have been HoH since birth.

Who knows. I'm just guessing so don't take my words as a grain of salt.

Just sayin'.
 
jillio said:
Both writing and speaking are modes of a language. The language is English, period.

The language is English, writing is the mode used to express it. The language is English. Speaking is the mode used to express it. Spoken English does not use a different linquistic base than does written English. I don't know how much simpler to put it.
Click to expand...

Yes, and also simply put, I'm not necessarily arguing with you on this. But when you claim that learning to speak English is not learning a language, but a mode, you must also be claiming that learning to write English is not learning a language, but a mode.
 
jillio said:
A much more accurate way to assess language skills than is the ability to articulate.
Click to expand...

Why do you ascribe more value to one mode than to the other?
 
Grendel,
She means that you can pronounce and articulate words well, and know a lot of vocabulary but still not understand how to use the syntax and grammar of the language....which is REAL fluency.
 
jillio said:
More often, in the case of the oral deaf child, they have good speech, but poor use of the language. Speech cannot be used to assess liguistic achievements.
Click to expand...
If some of the oral deaf's English is so poor, then how come there is that low reading level in some of the schools for the deaf? As pointed out in some of the other threads? Even some of the parents used some of the deaf school's low reading level as an incentive for wanting to take the CI route for their child...

Besides, don't we all also know of some deaf people that seem to have this stigma that they write as if "they're using ASL..." as seen in the forum sometime...
 
ASL deaf are being mainstreamed these days, Some don't even have IEP as the school think they don't need it, they just need 504 something for accommodations.

It seem that deaf school are taking in deaf children with multiple disabilities, deaf children who tried Oral only methods even the the ones with CI, but still severely behind so parents are going for a different method, and things like that. dispite all that, the majority still end up with a regular (as in caught up) diploma by graduation.

So parents who use deaf school score are not looking at the bigger picture.
 
HHIssues said:
If some of the oral deaf's English is so poor, then how come there is that low reading level in some of the schools for the deaf? As pointed out in some of the other threads? Even some of the parents used some of the deaf school's low reading level as an incentive for wanting to take the CI route for their child...

Besides, don't we all also know of some deaf people that seem to have this stigma that they write as if "they're using ASL..." as seen in the forum sometime...
Click to expand...

Go check out the thread about this deaf lady who became a physican's assistant..she graduated from a deaf school. That blows your and other's stereotyping of Deaf schools out the window.

I know so many Deaf adults who attended Deaf schools whose reading levels are on par with hearing society. My brother is one of them.

If Deaf schools are being criticized, what about all those illerate hearing epole..they SHOULD know how to read and write since they can hear. What's their excuse?
 
GrendelQ said:
Why do you ascribe more value to one mode than to the other?
Click to expand...

Writing is a more accurate way to gauge a deaf person's language skills than speech. Speech would be a much better way to gauge a blind person's skill if he's unable to read the written word.
 
GrendelQ said:
Yes, and also simply put, I'm not necessarily arguing with you on this. But when you claim that learning to speak English is not learning a language, but a mode, you must also be claiming that learning to write English is not learning a language, but a mode.
Click to expand...

Spanish, Greek and English are all languages. Speech is merely the most common mode for these languages. Braille and the Morse code are modes of these languages as well.
 
Yes, writing is a mode but a deaf person must be fluent in English in order to be able to write it. Some of you are implying that if deaf people dont have speech skills, they aren't fluent in English.

Wrong!
 
HHIssues said:
If some of the oral deaf's English is so poor, then how come there is that low reading level in some of the schools for the deaf? As pointed out in some of the other threads? Even some of the parents used some of the deaf school's low reading level as an incentive for wanting to take the CI route for their child...

Besides, don't we all also know of some deaf people that seem to have this stigma that they write as if "they're using ASL..." as seen in the forum sometime...
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, there is also a low reading level in the hearing students with no hearing loss what so ever. Low reading levels can come about for a variety of reasons and are not only for the deaf and hard of hearing. I know whereof I speak. Having had to deal with it and having a lot of friends and classmates who had to deal with it.
 
KristinaB said:
Keep in mind, there is also a low reading level in the hearing students with no hearing loss what so ever. Low reading levels can come about for a variety of reasons and are not only for the deaf and hard of hearing. I know whereof I speak. Having had to deal with it and having a lot of friends and classmates who had to deal with it.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it. I agree, this "dumbing down" of our students is inexcusable, even deliberate. It should be our number one national priority, but look at the way things are.
 
Beowulf said:
You beat me to it. I agree, this "dumbing down" of our students is inexcusable, even deliberate. It should be our number one national priority, but look at the way things are.
Click to expand...

Just this past year, it seems that a lot of Florida students who graduated, could only read on a 8th grade level. Then, they didn't even have the comprehension to answer simple questions.

Not for Beowulf:
I do not have links to the information, it was info brought up at my local deaf club. So, take it or leave it anyone.
 
shel90 said:
Yes, writing is a mode but a deaf person must be fluent in English in order to be able to write it. Some of you are implying that if deaf people dont have speech skills, they aren't fluent in English.

Wrong!
Click to expand...

Exactly. I know words in English that I can define but I have no idea what they sound like. I would not recognize them if someone said them out loud though I'll know what it is if they write it down. I have no idea how to pronounce them either.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top