So, will the deaf culture be there?

[faire_jour]

Yes, I know.

Then FJ is messing everything up when she is talking about spoken language and listening which is way out of wacko. She was not talking about Deaf Culture at all. That is off topic anyway. :roll:

Why can't my kid have both? Why can't she be Deaf and hear?

I get that you can't hear spoken language, but you don't seem to understand that other deaf people can.

I am happy that my daughter uses ASL and has a community (locally) that loves and supports her. But I am also happy that she can talk to her great grandparents and they can have a relationship and I am happy that she can talk to her Daddy on the phone when he works late. Why not give her the benefit of both? Where is the downside?

 

[deafdyke]

First of all ASL only monolingals are getting to be rare overall. There are many who are older but even most ASL users have had extensive speech training. It's like the number of Spanish speakers in America who only speak Spanish...or like the number of quebecosis who only speak French.
faire joure when you say oral, do you mean orally SKILLED or just oral only? There is a HUGE difference there. Someone can be orally skilled, but not be oral only. I am very orally skilled, to the point where I have a very high Verbal IQ. Verbal IQ indicates mastery of a language. Most dhh people have a lower verbal IQ and a high nonverbal IQ. Yet, I do not identify as oral. Even with my oral abilty, I still have a very strong connection to Deafness and Deaf culture. Bear in mind I am HOH (meaning according to hearing experts I'm more hearing then deaf))
I think that's what you're missing here. Just b/c a dhh person can hear and talk relatively well, it does not mean that they'll have the abilty to access the hearing world 100%. They will be able to access quite a bit of the hearing world yes....but....well hearing parents of dhh kids, who chose oral only seem to think that oral only will allow them to totally and completly access the hearign world, and allow them to have a "Normal Suburban Childhood" Even AG Bell Oral deafies acknowledge that while hearing and speaking is awesome....it still doesn't allow them to have complete and unfettered access to the hearing world. Did you know for example that at the Mainstream conference, a pretty much perhennisal topic is social issues and fitting in? Heck, if I had a buck for every single dhh mainstreamed "orally sucessful" guy who has ever IMd me wanting a girlfriend,or who complains that they don't fit into the hearing world/have few friends in the hearign world I'd be RICH!
Also, kids saying " I can hear you, talk" doesn't really indicate anything. They do want to talk yes....but they're still at relatively low levels of language sophistication. Heck when i was little we lived next door to a Deaf (voice off) girl. I didn't understand why she didn't speak. I felt like I had access to the hearing world and didn't need sign. Fast forward over twenty years, and I'm now hardcore ASL. I think too maybe many of the kids might be picking up from their parents the unspoken attitude that " YAY! Speech is good! Yay! My kid doesn't need something that's "speshal needs"
Yes, there are hearing parents who are very into ASL and support it....but sadly a lot of hearing parents are still unconsciously greiving.

 

[posts from hell]

deafdyke: IM Sent.

 

[Hohtopics]

If that's how you view it RD, that's your right but I disagree.

I used to be assimilated with the majority growing up but I always felt so alone and isolated. With the Deaf community, I finally feel like I am a part of a community and don't feel so alone anymore. Of course, it is human nature not to want to feel so alone so why should I assimilate with the majority if it makes me so isolated? Life is too short.

Approximately when did you enter the Deaf community? What decade was it? 70's? 80's? 90's, etc...?

 

[deafgal001]

does it matter? there are some young ones to this day joining the Deaf community.

 

[Hohtopics]

does anyone volunteer to criticizing me if I think that Deaf culture are only for sign language? I sure do think that Deaf cultures are for anyone who uses ASL that have culturally immersion. If those deaf or hoh kids who prefer to speak alone then they know who they are, and are not part of deaf culture. So that's the whole point is that my thread is created.

Just like it is with other sub cultures, there are different aspects of the deaf culture. It doesn't have to be just the Deaf / ASL's.

 

[Hohtopics]

does it matter? there are some young ones to this day joining the Deaf community.

Well, things were different back then. Even the BTE's weren't as good during the 1970's as they are now. As a matter of fact, just the other day I was talking to a long time, oral deaf friend of mine. And we both agreed that looking back, that the body aids were more powerful than the BTE's.

 

[deafgal001]

I'm a child of 80's teen of the 90's ... I don't think it was just as good either.

 

[rockdrummer]

mmm I am not sure about this one. It's all about being exposed with many different cultures and education and more respect for each other than insisting them to learn their way based on the majority of population instead of learning both. That is where the problem is.

I don't know that anyone is "insisting" nor did I mean to imply that. It is everyones right to decide to assimilate or not but I also believe that decision will have an impact on many aspects of ones life. Especially when we are talking about communication.

 

[rockdrummer]

Yes, insisting deaf people to coform with the majority but not expect the majority to do some conforming as well is the big problem.

Looking at this from a cultural perspective it is each individuals choice to assimilate or not into the majority culture. Nobody is insisting or forcing anyone to do anything. Just as with many things in life our decisions have implications. If I move to Japan and choose to not learn their language I am going to be isolating myself from communicating with anyone that knows Japaneese.

 

[rockdrummer]

But I'm not suppose to believe all of oral deaf adults I've met? Their opinion doesn't count? The fact that they tell me that they are happy with the way they grew up, that they are sooooo thankful that their parents gave them hearing and spoken language, and that they advocate FOR oralism....that doesn't matter? A parent needs to weigh BOTH sides and decide what is best for THEIR child.

that is exactly what I was saying earlier. It's a mixed bag of results just as much in life is.

 

[deafgal001]

Looking at this from a cultural perspective it is each individuals choice to assimilate or not into the majority culture. Nobody is insisting or forcing anyone to do anything. Just as with many things in life our decisions have implications. If I move to Japan and choose to not learn their language I am going to be isolating myself from communicating with anyone that knows Japaneese.

An ASL country... would they even allow that to happen?

 

[rockdrummer]

An ASL country... would they even allow that to happen?

that is a good point. Technically deaf cultures are really sub-cultures. But at the end of the day we are still talking about two different languages.

 

[posts from hell]

An ASL country... would they even allow that to happen?

I blame mexico for that.

But I think its easier done than we think

 

[Passivist]

Looking at this from a cultural perspective it is each individuals choice to assimilate or not into the majority culture. Nobody is insisting or forcing anyone to do anything. Just as with many things in life our decisions have implications. If I move to Japan and choose to not learn their language I am going to be isolating myself from communicating with anyone that knows Japaneese.

This assumes every Japanese uses the same method of communicating. Like the deaf they don't, there are regional dialects, Cantonese etc. The deaf don't all sign either, in reality very few are totally dependent or strictly ASL only using deaf. They use SE/SEE/Cued speech, lip-reading etc. So not Must learn ASL or be isolated ? I don't think so... I think the onus is very much on the ASL person to conform to others... at present neither are giving an inch so....

 

[deafgal001]

This assumes every Japanese uses the same method of communicating. Like the deaf they don't, there are regional dialects, Cantonese etc. The deaf don't all sign either, in reality very few are totally dependent or strictly ASL only using deaf. They use SE/SEE/Cued speech, lip-reading etc. So not Must learn ASL or be isolated ? I don't think so... I think the onus is very much on the ASL person to conform to others... at present neither are giving an inch so....

RD later pointed out subculture.

 

[deafdyke]

LOL....PFH, does that mean you have a forum crush on me?
I do think that faire joure has been listening to AG Bell theorists too much. I think too she doesn't understand that they can spin things. They are the ones who assume that good speech and language= 100% access to the hearing world. It has ALWAYS pretty much been a mix. Some kids feel "almost hearing" but others ....It has always been pretty much a very mixed bag as to end results. That will be true of this generation as well. I also find it really ironic that the VERY same oral deaf folks who say that spoken language gives you SO much access to the hearing world, are the very same ones who complain and moan that they don't fit into the hearing world, and have a poor social life and SO many problems b/c they are dhh. You know....I'd love to see about psychological issues suffered by oral only folks. Not just reports of "high self esteem" from kids. I mean yeah that's a good sign...but still it's still early on. Many children (including hoh) do well up til about fourth grade......that's actually a reason why there's still a couple of res programs that are oral. (Clarke and St. Joseph's) and why there are still private oral programs which are for school age kids.
Oh, and she's constantly using Kat's audiogram as "proof" that CIers can hear at mild loss levels. While that can be true (and doesn't surprise me) remember that Kat had a progressive loss! It's also from testing in a silent soundproof booth.Which can be very different from the real world.
I also think that faire jour is explorating her experiance with her small deaf school to Deaf Ed as a WHOLE.
I remember actually, her saying that the speech therapist didn't have much experiance with teaching dhh kids to speak, and the only reason why she was hired was b/c she knew ASL. It's NOT about philosophy. It's about scarcity of resources!!! Heck even most public school or even most specialized speech therapists wouldn't have much training on how to teach dhh kids to speak!

 

[faire_jour]

LOL....PFH, does that mean you have a forum crush on me?
I do think that faire joure has been listening to AG Bell theorists too much. I think too she doesn't understand that they can spin things. They are the ones who assume that good speech and language= 100% access to the hearing world. It has ALWAYS pretty much been a mix. Some kids feel "almost hearing" but others ....It has always been pretty much a very mixed bag as to end results. That will be true of this generation as well. I also find it really ironic that the VERY same oral deaf folks who say that spoken language gives you SO much access to the hearing world, are the very same ones who complain and moan that they don't fit into the hearing world, and have a poor social life and SO many problems b/c they are dhh. You know....I'd love to see about psychological issues suffered by oral only folks. Not just reports of "high self esteem" from kids. I mean yeah that's a good sign...but still it's still early on. Many children (including hoh) do well up til about fourth grade......that's actually a reason why there's still a couple of res programs that are oral. (Clarke and St. Joseph's) and why there are still private oral programs which are for school age kids.
Oh, and she's constantly using Kat's audiogram as "proof" that CIers can hear at mild loss levels. While that can be true (and doesn't surprise me) remember that Kat had a progressive loss! It's also from testing in a silent soundproof booth.Which can be very different from the real world.
I also think that faire jour is explorating her experiance with her small deaf school to Deaf Ed as a WHOLE.
I remember actually, her saying that the speech therapist didn't have much experiance with teaching dhh kids to speak, and the only reason why she was hired was b/c she knew ASL. It's NOT about philosophy. It's about scarcity of resources!!! Heck even most public school or even most specialized speech therapists wouldn't have much training on how to teach dhh kids to speak!

You really think you get me, don't you? You couldn't be more wrong. First of all, I don't listen to AG Bell. I refuse to support them financially because they do not advocate for ALL methodologies. I have been to a few conferences, but I have also been to several bi-bi educational conferences as well as those put on my Hands & Voices, which is unbiased.

How would you feel if I told you that I thought you had been brainwashed by Deaf community extremists and that you were missing the big picture because you are too insulated in your closed society to see how many people with a hearing loss do wonderfully with spoken language? That the ONLY people who seek out ASL are those who are unhappy with oralism and want and need an alternative? That those who choose to live in the hearing community NEVER GET COUNTED because they never go to the Deaf community?

Also, you constantly spew things like "most orally skilled people still have language delays" or "self esteem issues" or "social issues", well, you know what? Put your money where you mouth is. SHOW US. Quit saying this bullshit that you have based on nothing but your opinion.

And actually, my daughter discriminates speech at 10 db, so that is considered normal hearing, not a mild loss. And yeah, the booth isn't real life, but 10 db in the booth definitely translates to conversation speech (55db) in the real world. You know what tells me that she hears in the real world, her ability to pick up incidental language....exactly what you claim deaf kids CAN'T do. She told me "Yep" today. She also uses words like "awesome" and knows the characters from Sponge Bob, all things we haven't taught her. She also hears and understands speech in the school cafeteria, in restaurants, from upstairs and from the backseat of the car. All things that kids with hearing aids struggle with.

As for her progressive loss, that doesn't matter. She went a full 4 years without access to spoken language. She performed as if she was profoundly deaf since her diagnosis. Children with profound or total losses do just as well as kids with severe or progressive losses when they are implanted early.

I extrapolate the bi-bi school to all voice off bi-bi schools. By default if the school is voice off they can NOT encourage or use spoken language in the classroom. They can not provide fluent spoken language immersion, because it is a voice off ASL school.

 

[AlleyCat]

Also, you constantly spew things like "most orally skilled people still have language delays" or "self esteem issues" or "social issues", well, you know what? Put your money where you mouth is. SHOW US. Quit saying this bullshit that you have based on nothing but your opinion.

Out of curiousity, how would you like us to SHOW YOU? I am part of a very large deaf community, and I see this for myself. How do I show you this? If nothing else, I can share one concrete example. I know of one oral deaf who has serious self-esteem and social issues. I know -- I used to be married to him.

 

[rockdrummer]

This assumes every Japanese uses the same method of communicating. Like the deaf they don't, there are regional dialects, Cantonese etc. The deaf don't all sign either, in reality very few are totally dependent or strictly ASL only using deaf. They use SE/SEE/Cued speech, lip-reading etc. So not Must learn ASL or be isolated ? I don't think so... I think the onus is very much on the ASL person to conform to others... at present neither are giving an inch so....

you are correct. My point is about communicating with any method or dialect. If you don't learn to communicate with the majority (whatever that is) then you are isolating yourself from communicatiion with anyone that does not use your mode of communication.