SEE is a language... It's English...

[Frisky Feline]

PFH I acknowledged pages back that ASL is a faster way of communicating in sign. I've never disagreed with that point.

According to her post that's what she thinks is that ASL is the flaw for the example of poor writing skills.

you are right. I should wait and do not make assume until she has something to say it. It is just me what I see in her post that she thinks ASL is not an effective language for reading or writing skills.

I dont know...best to let her answer first. I would rather let her have a chance to answer than all of us answering for her. That is not right. Thanks.

Shel is right that I wouldn't have to plant words into csigns mouths. However I just spilled out of my mouth when csign said in the bold sentence in the first post. I had to say something because that's how I am under the impression that csign feels about ASL what I stated in my previous posts.

My point is that ASL is not the shortcut method of communcating or anything but very useful. Any kids need to read any books or on the internet or newspaper or anything that shows words in front of eyes or fingers that reading is the key in order to writing and reading the best. ASL, or any form of signs or orals are only for the communication method, not learning but need to have feedback like back and forth in words to clarify with what is going on.

 

[shel90]

Shel is right that I wouldn't have to plant words into csigns mouths. However I just spilled out of my mouth when csign said in the bold sentence in the first post. I had to say something because that's how I am under the impression that csign feels about ASL what I stated in my previous posts.

My point is that ASL is not the shortcut method of communcating or anything but very useful. Any kids need to read any books or on the internet or newspaper or anything that shows words in front of eyes or fingers that reading is the key in order to writing and reading the best. ASL, or any form of signs or orals are only for the communication method, not learning but need to have feedback like back and forth in words to clarify with what is going on.

I agree with you all the way about ASL.

 

[GrendelQ]

So many leaped from this statement:

...PFH, you asked why I am "hardcore SEE" now. I appreciate you asking that, although I wouldn't label myself "hardcore SEE.". The reason was/ is because in the research I did, I found that many DHH students were graduating high school with a 3rd to 4th grade reading level. I did not want my son to be one of those statistics. That is a part of why we chose to use SEE. He now has a solid foundation in English to work from. ...

to "ASL is the cause for deaf children to have poor reading skills."

I don't see CSign's logic as having anything to do with ASL, definitely not anti-ASL. She's simply connecting signed English with written English. Most DHH students aren't learning via ASL -- so how can she be blaming it for that crappy statistic?

The reading figures we often use on this board from Gallaudet compare mean scores for DHH student performance to average performance of general student population and find that the half of their sample of 17-18 YO DHH students performed lower than the average general pop. 4th grader, half above.

This is pegged to relative performance, not a standard testing. So that general 12th grade population is not considered performing at 5th grade levels, but at 12th grade avg levels. That genl 4th grade pop. is performing at avg 4th grade level.

 

[posts from hell]

So many leaped from this statement:



to "ASL is the cause for deaf children to have poor reading skills."

I don't see CSign's logic as having anything to do with ASL, definitely not anti-ASL. She's simply connecting signed English with written English. Most DHH students aren't learning via ASL -- so how can she be blaming it for that crappy statistic?

The reading figures we often use on this board from Gallaudet compare mean scores for DHH student performance to average performance of general student population and find that the half of their sample of 17-18 YO DHH students performed lower than the average general pop. 4th grader, half above.

This is pegged to relative performance, not a standard testing. So that general 12th grade population is not considered performing at 5th grade levels, but at 12th grade avg levels. That genl 4th grade pop. is performing at avg 4th grade level.

First: Let's check the bolded statement - You just basically said ASL is superior. You said that most of them arent using ASL to learn and lookie a doo! The other methods, SEE, Oralism, Rochester Method, etc etc arent working.
Thanks for that.

Second:

42 million American adults can't read at all; 50 million are unable to read at a higher level that is expected of a fourth or fifth grader.

That is 92 million adults in America. We only have 308 million people, including children. This is not just a D/HH problem. People are pulling the d/hh stat to get $ off you switching to their methods by implying fear while hoping you dont see the problem in America in general. I'd also wager that the majority of the 92 million went to mainstream schools as well. (ahhhhhhh and your little precious deaf kiddies are going to the same schools america is going to.)

 

[shel90]

So many leaped from this statement:



to "ASL is the cause for deaf children to have poor reading skills."

I don't see CSign's logic as having anything to do with ASL, definitely not anti-ASL. She's simply connecting signed English with written English. Most DHH students aren't learning via ASL -- so how can she be blaming it for that crappy statistic?

The reading figures we often use on this board from Gallaudet compare mean scores for DHH student performance to average performance of general student population and find that the half of their sample of 17-18 YO DHH students performed lower than the average general pop. 4th grader, half above.

This is pegged to relative performance, not a standard testing. So that general 12th grade population is not considered performing at 5th grade levels, but at 12th grade avg levels. That genl 4th grade pop. is performing at avg 4th grade level.

Excuse me...I asked a question. I didnt "leap". Geez

 

[CSign]

"It seems many of you haven't completely read what I've written. If you had, you would have seen multiple references to the high value I place on ASL. I know, and I understand that is the primary language of those that are Deaf. See, big "D"? I know. I understand, and I whole heartedly accept that. That is why it has always been in the plan to transition to ASL as he got older."

That is a quote pulled from page 3. I have referenced many times that I value ASL and that it serves a purpose, just as SEE does. There were references too the fact that SEE is cumbersome, which is why I made the comment, "PFH I acknowledged pages back that ASL is a faster way of communicating in sign. I've never disagreed with that point."
Not that ASL is dumbed down or whatever conclusions you all jumped to.
I never said ASL was to blame for poor reading and writing skills. We know that DHH children/adults can have a difficult time with the English language. Not because of ASL, but because they don't have auditory access to it like hearing children do. Deaf children don't experience incidental learning of English because they cannot hear it. That is why we chose to supplement the auditory information with the visual to express what's being said.
Since I made a commitment to that, he has a solid command of the English language. As I've said before, there are different ways to achieve an end. This was the way we chose to ensure our son would become proficient in English.

I am NOT an Audist, as some have accused me. I am NOT anti-ASL as some of you have said.

Just because I chose to use SEE in the beginning doesn't mean that I am anti-ASL. I am all for it, and as I said before we are transitioning to ASL. I am tired of people throwing their pre-conceived notions about what they think is in my head because of their experience with other people. Well, I am not other people. If some would take the time to read my posts, they would see and understand where I was coming from.

 

[CSign]

Originally Posted by jillio
"'Evidently you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're". So much for an accurate representation of English.'
You picked that up too Jillio, if you hadn't I would have." Becklack

Once again, I was on my phone which automatically picked the word for me. I am fluent in English, and I know the difference between "your" and "you're."

 

[CSign]

Well, yuck! I didn't realize she was saying that.

Now I do.

I wasn't saying that.

 

[Banjo]

I wasn't saying that.

You didn't have to say it. It was clearly implied.

 

[Reba]

...Once again, I was on my phone which automatically picked the word for me. I am fluent in English, and I know the difference between "your" and "you're."

Mine does that, too. It's very annoying.

 

[CSign]

Are you kidding me?????????

How was it clearly implied? I chose to focus on English in the early years because I knew it would be a challenge. That doesn't mean I don't value ASL, it means that I wanted to ensure that he be proficient in English. How does that imply that I don't like ASL? Stop reading into things that aren't there Banjo.

 

[posts from hell]

Are you kidding me?????????

How was it clearly implied? I chose to focus on English in the early years because I knew it would be a challenge. That doesn't mean I don't value ASL, it means that I wanted to ensure that he be proficient in English. How does that imply that I don't like ASL? Stop reading into things that aren't there Banjo.

Then why not switch over to ASL now since you OBVIOUSLY know its better?

 

[Banjo]

Are you kidding me?????????

How was it clearly implied? I chose to focus on English in the early years because I knew it would be a challenge. That doesn't mean I don't value ASL, it means that I wanted to ensure that he be proficient in English. How does that imply that I don't like ASL? Stop reading into things that aren't there Banjo.

Are you familiar with the meaning of implicature?

 

[CSign]

I am familiar with the meaning of implicature, and I was not implicating anything of the sort.

 

[Banjo]

I am familiar with the meaning of implicature, and I was not implicating anything of the sort.

I am saying sometimes, with the impression that the student/person who is using the interpreter uses ASL as their primary mode of communication.

PFH, you asked why I am "hardcore SEE" now. I appreciate you asking that, although I wouldn't label myself "hardcore SEE.". The reason was/ is because in the research I did, I found that many DHH students were graduating high school with a 3rd to 4th grade reading level. I did not want my son to be one of those statistics. That is a part of why we chose to use SEE. He now has a solid foundation in English to work from. That's not to say that he won't experience any challenges. Every person, deaf or not faces challenges in school. From the knowledge he has now, he will be continue to grow and improve.

As I said before, there is no one right way to do things. Different paths ultimately can lead to the sane place.

I can see how it goes both ways, however it did give people the impression that you were implicating that ASL is a factor in the high percentage of functionally illiterates among the deaf population.

 

[posts from hell]

heh, no answer to my question. i see how that rolls.

 

[Beowulf]

I can see how it goes both ways, however it did give people the impression that you were implicating that ASL is a factor in the high percentage of functionally illiterates among the deaf population.

Yes, but I will give CSign the benefit of the doubt. She is obviously concerned about the quality of her son's education and it IS confusing on which course of action to take. If CSign made mistakes, so what? It is a learning process and I say we cut her some slack.

 

[CSign]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSign
"'Reba, what YOU'RE describing is a part of why SEE was created in the first place. Sometimes it is necessary to use SEE to convey English grammar for various reasons.

Alleycat, I stand by what I said. In all sincerity I'm sorry you feel that way.'

Only sometimes, not in daily conversational purposes?" PostsFromHell

I was responding to PFH about my response to Reba. The two comments were not related, nothing to do with the other.

 

[CSign]

Then why not switch over to ASL now since you OBVIOUSLY know its better?

I don't view ASL or English as being better or superior. I place the equal value on them both. They both serve a valuable purpose.

 

[Banjo]

Yes, but I will give CSign the benefit of the doubt. She is obviously concerned about the quality of her son's education and it IS confusing on which course of action to take. If CSign made mistakes, so what? It is a learning process and I say we cut her some slack.

Yes, although I would tone down the the defensiveness if I were her. It's only off-putting and somewhat provoking. Not what you would want in a public forum.

The thing about public forums is that people are entitled to their opinions. Constructive criticism is something a parent will be seeing a lot of and need to start taking them in strides. Parents always make the decisions, they will reap the either rewards or the consequences.