Peer Relationships of Children With Cochlear Implants

[rockdrummer]

Just as there are those who are anti-deaf schools there are also those pro-deaf schoolers who want to turn a blind eye to some of the real problems associated with deaf schools such as sexual abuse, peer pressure and substandard academics. They attempt to minimize those problems or label anyone who attempts to bring them up for discussion as a "hater" or whatever term du jour they use.

The reality, is that any attempt to generalize will be faulty because it is by its very nature a generalization and can be countered by specifics. I would not attempt to claim knowledge of every single deaf school and what they are currently doing be it oral, bi-bi or whatever. Just as every mainstream school district is different from other school districts, it is ludicrous to condem all mainstream programs because someone had a bad experience in some mainstream school years ago.

What I do know is that when we were investigating schools for our daughter we visited, numerous times, the three deaf schools in our area (one oral and two TC). What we were able to determine and my wife was an elementary school teacher with a Masters in Special Ed (which she currently teaches) was that the academic standards and results at both the TC schools were woefully lacking and not what we wanted for our child. When we looked at everything, the higher academic standards, the small class sizes and small size of our SD (1300 kids K-12) plus dedicated Special Ed and School Administrators who wanted our child, not just to graduate but to succeed in their school, made our decision an easy one. For us, and most importantly, for our child, her mainstream experience was rewarding both academically and socially.

So, as I think some of us have said numerous times in this thread, there is no one way to educate any child, even a deaf child, and that the goal is to choose an educational setting that best meets your child's needs. For our child, it was the mainstream and if that means you are too narrow minded to see it as anything as but being anti-deaf school or a "hater", then that is too bad for you but does not change nor affect the positive experiences our daughter had in the mainstream.
Rick

Generalization allows for those specifics that fall outside the generalized data. They are called outliers. And they, in no way, invalidate the generalization.

Regardless of the meta data Jillio, Rick has made some very compelling points. Not only that, based on his comments it doesn't appear that he and his wife were bias and looked into each program in their area carefully. If one falls short in terms of their track record, then that program should quite naturally be ruled out.

 

[jillio]

Sorry but that thread is about bullies.... they are a sad fact of going through school no matter if you are hearing or deaf or go to a public, private or deaf school.

True. So why put a child in a situation that increases that risk?

 

[jillio]

Regardless of the meta data Jillio, Rick has made some very compelling points. Not only that, based on his comments it doesn't appear that he and his wife were bias and looked into each program in their area carefully. If one falls short in terms of their track record, then that program should quite naturally be ruled out.

His bias has been made more than obvious to all. And his compelling points (I fail to see them) are moot in face of the meta analysis and historical evidence.

 

[shel90]

What, that the deaf claim to know what's best for the hearing? I don't think that you will, historically, ever find a case of that happening.

Right..show me where Deaf people has taken control of hearing children's education at the schools and screwed many hearing children up both educationally and emotionally by placing them in extremely restrictive environments.

 

[JennyB]

This is what I find funny, apperently the deaf people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the hearing people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the professionals don't know whats best for the deaf people....so who does?

I think the answer to my own question is the individual.

Rick, and whomever else is lurking here with children with CI's, if your child came to you and said they wanted to learn ASL, would you let them? If your child came to you and didn't want to use their CI everyday, would you let them?
If your child wanted to discover Deaf culture, would you let them?

Do not answer those questions with it won't happen either because I have friends who it has happened to. They all have perfectly amazing oral skills and can hear well enough to discriminate and understand speech with their CI's, but when they were about 16 they just stopped using them for one reason or another and by THEIR choice went and discovered their Deaf identities.

So as a parent, in that situation, what would you do?

 

[deafdyke]

Funny how people with nil or next to no experience with cochlear implant children in the mainstream have so much to say about the topic but then they do the same when the topic is cued speech also.

rick, YOU don't realize that you've got a biased perspective. You have seen SOME CI mainstream kids suceed.....but that is because the population you've encountered tends to be really high acheiving type. Shel HAS seen many kids with CI in the mainstream.
You're simply doing the falcilty of equating ancedote with data. I don't doubt that you 've seen some impressive things. That said,
Overall, acheivement levels for CI mainstreamed kids aren't that great. There's still a very low reading level and academic acheivement isn't that great.
It's like........Kids from a slum such as East St. Louis, Gary Indiana, Camden NJ and other places, may have in some cases gotten edcuation good enough to become professionals, but most kids in their school system have not achieved all that much!

 

[Hermes]

[Mod's Edit - Previous quote removed]

I dont have anything to say about what you told Jillio. I am not into that part of the argument. The reason I qutoed this is for asking a question to everyone:

Now hearing people can not decide whats best for deaf people because they do not have first hand knowledge, but also deaf people can not decide whats best because they will be coming from a system created by hearing people and carrying its marks. So its a cycle.

Hearing or deaf, the person who is going to decide is already the product of the system and previous mistakes. Looking into studies doesnt look like best solution because those studies are completed by same people who can not come up with the right idea at the first place. Listening doctors doesnt seem like best solution, because they learned from their mentors who also were not able to come up with right aproach. Rockdrummer says we should look at it case to case bases. Very well but who is that person or people that is going to decide what is best for those individual cases? Parents? Doctors? Other deaf people? Question goes back to beginning.

How is this cycle going to end? Do you see a way out? If yes, what are your suggestions?

Thank You
Hermes

 

[rockdrummer]

And his compelling points (I fail to see them)

Below are the points that Rick made that I find compelling.

"when we were investigating schools for our daughter we visited, numerous times, the three deaf schools in our area (one oral and two TC). What we were able to determine and my wife was an elementary school teacher with a Masters in Special Ed (which she currently teaches) was that the academic standards and results at both the TC schools were woefully lacking and not what we wanted for our child. When we looked at everything, the higher academic standards, the small class sizes and small size of our SD (1300 kids K-12) plus dedicated Special Ed and School Administrators who wanted our child, not just to graduate but to succeed in their school, made our decision an easy one. For us, and most importantly, for our child, her mainstream experience was rewarding both academically and socially."

 

[Drew's Dad]

Rick, and whomever else is lurking here with children with CI's,

1. f your child came to you and said they wanted to learn ASL, would you let them?

2. If your child came to you and didn't want to use their CI everyday, would you let them?

3. If your child wanted to discover Deaf culture, would you let them?

The answer to all of these is yes, when my son is old enough to make those decisions. For #1 and #3, the time he'd be allowed to make that decision is fairly young. For #2, an older age.

 

[rockdrummer]

[Mod's Edit - Previous quote removed]

What, that the deaf claim to know what's best for the hearing? I don't think that you will, historically, ever find a case of that happening.

No that is not what I meant. What I meant about the coin flip is that it's also ironic that there are members (deaf and/or hearing) of AD that support each other in their claim that <insert your preferred method here> is the bast place for deaf children. I don't believe everyone is ignoring the experiences of others but rather considering them amongst other criteria including the track records of schools in their area.

Sorry but that thread is about bullies.... they are a sad fact of going through school no matter if you are hearing or deaf or go to a public, private or deaf school.

True. So why put a child in a situation that increases that risk?

My point was that bullies are everywhere at every school. If we agree on that point, then how would one go about decreasing the risk of being bullied other than to teach your child how to best handle it.

 

[vallee]

[Mod's Edit - Previous quote removed]

As an educator and a deaf individual with CIs, there are many reasons a parent chose the educational environment for their child. My discussion early was turned around as a negative I am against deaf schools, deaf children and only for CIs. I have said it many times that I believe each child is unique and there is no one size fits all. And with reference to peers and schools, I view that parents do put more into the decisions then other believe them too.

[Mod's Edit - Last paragraph removed - unneccessary]

 

[rockdrummer]

As an educator and a deaf individual with CIs, there are many reasons a parent chose the educational environment for their child. My discussion early was turned around as a negative I am against deaf schools, deaf children and only for CIs. I have said it many times that I believe each child is unique and there is no one size fits all. And with reference to peers and schools, I view that parents do put more into the decisions then other believe them too.

[Mod's Edit - Last paragraph removed; unnecessary]

Amen sister!

 

[vallee]

rick, YOU don't realize that you've got a biased perspective. You have seen SOME CI mainstream kids suceed.....but that is because the population you've encountered tends to be really high acheiving type. Shel HAS seen many kids with CI in the mainstream.
You're simply doing the falcilty of equating ancedote with data. I don't doubt that you 've seen some impressive things. That said,
Overall, acheivement levels for CI mainstreamed kids aren't that great. There's still a very low reading level and academic acheivement isn't that great.
It's like........Kids from a slum such as East St. Louis, Gary Indiana, Camden NJ and other places, may have in some cases gotten edcuation good enough to become professionals, but most kids in their school system have not achieved all that much!

Just because a child wear CIs does he receive special educations services. If they are not receiving services then the tracking of test scores and progress is impossible. The data is not there. Without accounting for the students that are mainstreamed without accommodations the data is not valid.

When state testing ,as most of the data comes from, in regular education settings it is not a separate idenfication for deafness. We code in special education services, hours of service, and accommodations. So outside a residental school I don't know how the data is collected. We don't provide it. the only way is if the data is picked apart by the educational departments. I have never seen this data and it has not been shared with me. I view AYP, Achievement, and growth and special education id is never shared.

 

[rockdrummer]

rick, YOU don't realize that you've got a biased perspective. You have seen SOME CI mainstream kids suceed.....but that is because the population you've encountered tends to be really high acheiving type. Shel HAS seen many kids with CI in the mainstream.
You're simply doing the falcilty of equating ancedote with data. I don't doubt that you 've seen some impressive things. That said,
Overall, acheivement levels for CI mainstreamed kids aren't that great. There's still a very low reading level and academic acheivement isn't that great.
It's like........Kids from a slum such as East St. Louis, Gary Indiana, Camden NJ and other places, may have in some cases gotten edcuation good enough to become professionals, but most kids in their school system have not achieved all that much!

Exactly. So who's place is it to say that any given path is the one to take. Obviously from your own comments some CI mainstream kids succeed. Who has the right to deny them that opportunity? Just as the kids that succeed in the deaf schools. Who has the right to deny their success? The reality is that some are going to succeed (educationally and socially) in one setting and some will be successful in other settings. There is no way to predict the outcome which is why I would advocate a full toolbox (including bilingual bi cultural) approach and gravitate towards the method that shows promise.

 

[vallee]

Exactly. So who's place is it to say that any given path is the one to take. Obviously from your own comments some CI mainstream kids succeed. Who has the right to deny them that opportunity? Just as the kids that succeed in the deaf schools. Who has the right to deny their success? The reality is that some are going to succeed (educationally and socially) in one setting and some will be successful in other settings. There is no way to predict the outcome which is why I would advocate a full toolbox (including bilingual bi cultural) approach and gravitate towards the method that shows promise.

I agree with you, I think all deaf children need a full toolbox unless they decide to drop some of it, but I wish more of the education was homeschool based. Our school for the deaf is 4 hours away. That is too far for most parents who just want to be with their children. So our school system has 4 elementary schools with deaf education classrooms. They us a bi-bi approach. The children are mainstreamed with accommodations if they can be. Some of the children are fully mainstreamed and some not at all. Other children are mainstreamed at the homeschool and the TOD visits the school. I would like to see more of this type of educational practice.

 

[AlleyCat]

Now hearing people can not decide whats best for deaf people because they do not have first hand knowledge, but also deaf people can not decide whats best because they will be coming from a system created by hearing people and carrying its marks. So its a cycle.

Hearing or deaf, the person who is going to decide is already the product of the system and previous mistakes. Looking into studies doesnt look like best solution because those studies are completed by same people who can not come up with the right idea at the first place. Listening doctors doesnt seem like best solution, because they learned from their mentors who also were not able to come up with right aproach. Rockdrummer says we should look at it case to case bases. Very well but who is that person or people that is going to decide what is best for those individual cases? Parents? Doctors? Other deaf people? Question goes back to beginning.

I fully agree that hearing people do not have first-hand knowledge. However, as the parents, they try to make the best decision for their child(ren) based on individual criteria relating to that child. And, the same applies for deaf parents -- using individual criteria relating to their child to make the best decision possible. I do think, though, that deaf parents, with having that first-hand knowledge you spoke of, can use that experience to further make a better decision. While I turned out very well, I disagree with some of the choices my parents made for my education. I look back and see how I would have done it differently if I were the parent, and I really would have. So if I had a deaf child, I would be using experience to guide me in directions I can take, and directions that I should not take.

 

[shel90]

I dont have anything to say about what you told Jillio. I am not into that part of the argument. The reason I qutoed this is for asking a question to everyone:

Now hearing people can not decide whats best for deaf people because they do not have first hand knowledge, but also deaf people can not decide whats best because they will be coming from a system created by hearing people and carrying its marks. So its a cycle.

Hearing or deaf, the person who is going to decide is already the product of the system and previous mistakes. Looking into studies doesnt look like best solution because those studies are completed by same people who can not come up with the right idea at the first place. Listening doctors doesnt seem like best solution, because they learned from their mentors who also were not able to come up with right aproach. Rockdrummer says we should look at it case to case bases. Very well but who is that person or people that is going to decide what is best for those individual cases? Parents? Doctors? Other deaf people? Question goes back to beginning.

How is this cycle going to end? Do you see a way out? If yes, what are your suggestions?

Thank You
Hermes

By providing all deaf children both approaches...ASL and spoken English (for the US but in other countries..sign language and the primary spoken language of that country). Expose all deaf children to deaf culture and other deaf kids along with hearing kids and how things work in the hearing world so that way the kids can grow up understanding that being deaf is not a bad thing and having a strong first language without being put at risks for language delays from trying out different programs with only one approach. Like AlleyCat..the full toolbox is what I am all for for every deaf child.

Also, the child can grow up knowing what is available and they can make that decision whether they want to be ASL only, Oral only, or both. I noticed that many deaf people whether it is here on AD or out there would like to have both. Many of us understand the importance of having good oral skills but we also understand that by having full access to communication in the educational setting makes learning less stressful.

 

[shel90]

Exactly. So who's place is it to say that any given path is the one to take. Obviously from your own comments some CI mainstream kids succeed. Who has the right to deny them that opportunity? Just as the kids that succeed in the deaf schools. Who has the right to deny their success? The reality is that some are going to succeed (educationally and socially) in one setting and some will be successful in other settings. There is no way to predict the outcome which is why I would advocate a full toolbox (including bilingual bi cultural) approach and gravitate towards the method that shows promise.[/QUOTE]

That is what I have been trying to say in the past 2 years but I get called anti-CI and other names because I do not believe in the oral-only aproach.

However, I see what happens to kids when they are placed in programs that do not provide the full toolbox and they are the ones who pay the heavy price and I would never ever support anything that put deaf children at risks for language delays or socio-emotional issues because they couldnt pick up on oral language.

 

[shel90]

I fully agree that hearing people do not have first-hand knowledge. However, as the parents, they try to make the best decision for their child(ren) based on individual criteria relating to that child. And, the same applies for deaf parents -- using individual criteria relating to their child to make the best decision possible. I do think, though, that deaf parents, with having that first-hand knowledge you spoke of, can use that experience to further make a better decision. While I turned out very well, I disagree with some of the choices my parents made for my education. I look back and see how I would have done it differently if I were the parent, and I really would have. So if I had a deaf child, I would be using experience to guide me in directions I can take, and directions that I should not take.

The problem is that 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents which most of them have no knowledge nor understanding of deaf needs and the importance of the deaf children having full access to language as soon as their deafness is discovered. I am not talking about parents learning sign language as I know that it is impossible to expect all of them to take up ASL classes and start learning but I am talking about putting their children in programs that offer both ASL and spoken English (BiBi approach). I just do not understand why it is so hard for some people to understand that. Maybe it is cuz I am a deaf person and I know what it is like to be deprived of full access to communication, information, and language 24/7.

 

[rockdrummer]

I dont have anything to say about what you told Jillio. I am not into that part of the argument. The reason I qutoed this is for asking a question to everyone:

Now hearing people can not decide whats best for deaf people because they do not have first hand knowledge, but also deaf people can not decide whats best because they will be coming from a system created by hearing people and carrying its marks. So its a cycle.

Hearing or deaf, the person who is going to decide is already the product of the system and previous mistakes. Looking into studies doesnt look like best solution because those studies are completed by same people who can not come up with the right idea at the first place. Listening doctors doesnt seem like best solution, because they learned from their mentors who also were not able to come up with right aproach. Rockdrummer says we should look at it case to case bases. Very well but who is that person or people that is going to decide what is best for those individual cases? Parents? Doctors? Other deaf people? Question goes back to beginning.

How is this cycle going to end? Do you see a way out? If yes, what are your suggestions?

Thank You
Hermes

Very valid points Hermes. It does seem like a vicious cycle to me and there are times I feel overwhelmed by it all. What I have to do at the end of the day is the same thing I find myself doing for many of the important decisions I am faced with. Take it all in, and make sure I have considered everything that I am able to find information on. Also to seek out answers for the information I am unable to find. Make sure I have educated myself on the subject and then factor all of that into my what I believe to be in the best interest of my child. The problem is that there is so much controversy on how to best educate a deaf child which only adds to the difficulty.