Peer Relationships of Children With Cochlear Implants

[Hermes]

I fully agree that hearing people do not have first-hand knowledge. However, as the parents, they try to make the best decision for their child(ren) based on individual criteria relating to that child. And, the same applies for deaf parents -- using individual criteria relating to their child to make the best decision possible. I do think, though, that deaf parents, with having that first-hand knowledge you spoke of, can use that experience to further make a better decision. While I turned out very well, I disagree with some of the choices my parents made for my education. I look back and see how I would have done it differently if I were the parent, and I really would have. So if I had a deaf child, I would be using experience to guide me in directions I can take, and directions that I should not take.

That is correct, but where does that knowledge for making the decision based on individual criteria come from? I do not have a kid, but lets say I had a deaf child, and lets assume I never faced with this situation before my kid was born. So I am facing with a new reality here. Now I probably will seek advice. But if I go to doctors, it probably will be based on their general view on the issue. If they advocate oral education they will forward me that way. If I seek advice from other deaf people, their advice might based on their own past. If they had bad experience in mainstream school they might say its wrong kind of education. If they had bad experience with deaf schools they may talk about it. We are seeing it on the forums. We also know that goverment and companies have their own priorities and not neccesarly will keep my kids well being first.

Maybe some parents will be conscious enough to make a healthy decision, but many more will only depend on advice coming from other sources. So where does this right advice based on individual case would come from?


Hermes

 

[shel90]

That is correct, but where does that knowledge for making the decision based on individual criteria come from? I do not have a kid, but lets say I had a deaf child, and lets assume I never faced with this situation before my kid was born. So I am facing with a new reality here. Now I probably will seek advice. But if I go to doctors, it probably will be based on their general view on the issue. If they advocate oral education they will forward me that way. If I seek advice from other deaf people, their advice might based on their own past. If they had bad experience in mainstream school they might say its wrong kind of education. If they had bad experience with deaf schools they may talk about it. We are seeing it on the forums. We also know that goverment and companies have their own priorities and not neccesarly will keep my kids well being first.

Maybe some parents will be conscious enough to make a healthy decision, but many more will only depend on advice coming from other sources. So where does this right advice based on individual case would come from?


Hermes

In my opinion, I would focus first on ensuring your child has full access to language to ensure he/she wont be put at risk for language delays and the only language that is fully accessible to deaf children is sign language since they cannot use their ears to pick up on spoken language naturally. Even direct instruction of spoken language is still risky. Hearing kids pick up language naturally in their environment so in my opinion, I would find an infant/toddler program that offers both languages. Then, after that see if there is a Deaf school nearby and see if that school uses a public school curriculm. If there is no Deaf school nearby, then search mainstreamed programs that have more than one deaf kid in it because being mainstreamed as the only deaf child is not easy at all.

 

[rockdrummer]

Exactly. So who's place is it to say that any given path is the one to take. Obviously from your own comments some CI mainstream kids succeed. Who has the right to deny them that opportunity? Just as the kids that succeed in the deaf schools. Who has the right to deny their success? The reality is that some are going to succeed (educationally and socially) in one setting and some will be successful in other settings. There is no way to predict the outcome which is why I would advocate a full toolbox (including bilingual bi cultural) approach and gravitate towards the method that shows promise.

That is what I have been trying to say in the past 2 years but I get called anti-CI and other names because I do not believe in the oral-only aproach.

However, I see what happens to kids when they are placed in programs that do not provide the full toolbox and they are the ones who pay the heavy price and I would never ever support anything that put deaf children at risks for language delays or socio-emotional issues because they couldnt pick up on oral language.

I don't recall anyone in this thread advocating an oral only approach. In fact, if memory serves me, many have suggested a full toolbox approach. I am curious though as to what you would personally define as a "full toolbox"

 

[shel90]

I don't recall anyone in this thread advocating an oral only approach. In fact, if memory serves me, many have suggested a full toolbox approach. I am curious though as to what you would personally define as a "full toolbox"

There are some who support oral-only deaf ed...I am not gonna name names.

Also, when I speak of people who support oral-only, I do not speak of ADers only..I am speaking of IRL also. That is where people make incorrect assumptions that I am just speaking of ADers only.

 

[Hermes]

Very valid points Hermes. It does seem like a vicious cycle to me and there are times I feel overwhelmed by it all. What I have to do at the end of the day is the same thing I find myself doing for many of the important decisions I am faced with. Take it all in, and make sure I have considered everything that I am able to find information on. Also to seek out answers for the information I am unable to find. Make sure I have educated myself on the subject and then factor all of that into my what I believe to be in the best interest of my child. The problem is that there is so much controversy on how to best educate a deaf child which only adds to the difficulty.

I agree with you and some others suggestions here as Shel mentioned exposing kids to both worlds. I perhaps am not in a position to make a decision at the moment but they sound very reseanable solutions to me.

But if you read my post above you may notice that I am trying to point the families who are depending on advice from other sources. I believe they are the majority right now.

You are talking about analizing the situation yourself and seeking information from outside when you are unable to find answer yourself, but this is the aproach of a conscious person. We do know that many people do and will only depend on advice coming from trusted parties , instead of taking the responsiblity and going into action themselves.

Expecting everybody do decide whats best for their children would require bringing everybody's consciousness up in the society. Not just deaf but whole education system is being fixed in the near future doesnt seem likely. Nor it looks like we are on our way to create a new, more conscious society.

Can I seek your thoughts further on the subject? (And everybody elses of course)


Hermes

 

[rockdrummer]

There are some who support oral-only deaf ed...I am not gonna name names.

Also, when I speak of people who support oral-only, I do not speak of ADers only..I am speaking of IRL also. That is where people make incorrect assumptions that I am just speaking of ADers only.

I understand you Shel... my point is that I don't believe anyone has mentioned oral-only in this thread. That said, I would make the point that I personally believe oral skills should be a part of a full toolbox. I am not suggesting in any way an oral-only approach.

 

[rockdrummer]

I agree with you and some others suggestions here as Shel mentioned exposing kids to both worlds. I perhaps am not in a position to make a decision at the moment but they sound very reseanable solutions to me.

But if you read my post above you may notice that I am trying to point the families who are depending on advice from other sources.

You are talking about analizing the situation yourself and seeking information from outside when you are unable to find answer yourself, but this is the aproach of a conscious person. We do know that many people do and will only depend on advice coming from trusted parties , instead of taking the responsiblity and going into action themselves.

Expecting everybody do decide whats best for their children would require bringing everybody's consciousness up in the society. It doesnt seem likely not just deaf but whole education system is being fixed in the near future. Nor it looks like we are on our way to create a new more conscious society.

Can I seek your thoughts further on the subject? (And everybody elses of course)


Hermes

I agree with you... How one approaches learning can make a major difference. I would not suggest to anyone to take the advice of a single source especially on a topic surrounded with much controversy. People faced with such a decision should seek out information from many sources including the deaf community.

 

[shel90]

I understand you Shel... my point is that I don't believe anyone has mentioned oral-only in this thread. That said, I would make the point that I personally believe oral skills should be a part of a full toolbox. I am not suggesting in any way an oral-only approach.

I agree that oral skills should be a part of a full-toolbox too.

In my experience, too often, we get kids coming to our program at an older age (beyond 5 years old) so language delayed because their parents want them to be fully oral without any exposure to sign language only to have it backfire on them. That is what I am fighting against. What makes me pissed is that the doctors tell the parents not to expose them to any sign language especially the CI doctors. When I speak about that, many ADers assume that means I am anti-CI when it couldnt be further from the truth. When that happens, I stop being nice cuz I have tried explaining over and over again that I am not anti-CI but I gave up.

 

[rockdrummer]

I agree that oral skills should be a part of a full-toolbox too.

In my experience, too often we get kids coming to our program at an older age (beyond 5 years old) so language delayed because their parents want them to be fully oral without any exposure to sign language only to have it backfire on them. That is what I am fighting against.

That is commendable but I believe language delays can occur for other reasons as well. Not just because oral-only is the approach.

 

[shel90]

That is commendable but I believe language delays can occur for other reasons as well. Not just because oral-only is the approach.

I wont try to change your beliefs. I just have mine and my personal/professional experience led me to have those beliefs. Like I said, I am in the minority anyway so it doesnt matter anymore anyway. That's why I have been participating less in Deaf education threads lately.

 

[rockdrummer]

I wont try to change your beliefs. I just have mine and my personal/professional experience led me to have those beliefs. Like I said, I am in the minority anyway so it doesnt matter anymore anyway. That's why I have been participating less in Deaf education threads lately.

The reason I make that statement about other factors than oral-only causing language delays is because I see it in kids that aren't being lead down an oral-only path. I am no expert and can't speak to the exact cause, but it is undeniably there.

 

[vallee]

That is commendable but I believe language delays can occur for other reasons as well. Not just because oral-only is the approach.

I agree with you on this.

 

[vallee]

I wont try to change your beliefs. I just have mine and my personal/professional experience led me to have those beliefs. Like I said, I am in the minority anyway so it doesnt matter anymore anyway. That's why I have been participating less in Deaf education threads lately.

by the time CI children get to your classroom they are delayed. It is a horrible fact. You seem to just hear the failures, while I hear in my school system some successful mainstream cases.

I have taught and been in the building with many HOH students. The ones I am in contact with are functioning within grade level in reading and orally. My friend is the TOD in our system and her students are doing very well in a partial or full inclusion. Many keep using a Bi-bi approach others go the oral only route. Another friend is involve in AVT. Her form of teaching also provides successful cases. Each child is unique and it is not one size fits all.

 

[vallee]

Maybe some parents will be conscious enough to make a healthy decision, but many more will only depend on advice coming from other sources. So where does this right advice based on individual case would come from?


Hermes

BUT no matter how much the parent researches or explores or how many doctors, if the decision goes against someone else beliefs then it is deemed wrong. It is very difficult for others to understand what steps a parent takes to make the choice of cochlear implants. There are so many steps involve in this process.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

That is commendable but I believe language delays can occur for other reasons as well. Not just because oral-only is the approach.

You are so right!!! language delays can be caused by so many different reasons.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

by the time CI children get to your classroom they are delayed. It is a horrible fact. You seem to just hear the failures, while I hear in my school system some successful mainstream cases.

I have taught and been in the building with many HOH students. The ones I am in contact with are functioning within grade level in reading and orally. My friend is the TOD in our system and her students are doing very well in a partial or full inclusion. Many keep using a Bi-bi approach others go the oral only route. Another friend is involve in AVT. Her form of teaching also provides successful cases. Each child is unique and it is not one size fits all.

Vallee, every child is so unique. Even when you have siblings being raised in the same way with the same type of hearing loss, they each need something different.

 

[rick48]

This is what I find funny, apperently the deaf people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the hearing people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the professionals don't know whats best for the deaf people....so who does?"

My response:
Yes, that is the problem that parents face each and every day as the reality is that no one has cornered the market on knowing what is best ofr deaf people or for anyone else for that matter.

"I think the answer to my own question is the individual."

My response:

Yes, but when that child is a child they cannot answer that question completely, if at all and to take no action until such time as they can, often is worse then making a choice for your child.

"Rick, and whomever else is lurking here with children with CI's, if your child came to you and said they wanted to learn ASL, would you let them? If your child came to you and didn't want to use their CI everyday, would you let them?
If your child wanted to discover Deaf culture, would you let them?"

My response:

To answer your questions 1 and 3 yes as for 2, it depends both upon the age of the child and the basis for their decision. Please note that my daughter is now 21 and those decisions are now hers to make. She has always been around deaf adults and other deaf children and never had and still does not have any interest in ASL or Deaf culture. Again, please note she has many friends who are deaf.

"Do not answer those questions with it won't happen either because I have friends who it has happened to. They all have perfectly amazing oral skills and can hear well enough to discriminate and understand speech with their CI's, but when they were about 16 they just stopped using them for one reason or another and by THEIR choice went and discovered their Deaf identities.

So as a parent, in that situation, what would you do?

My response:

I did not, but please in the future if you want to ask me a question, just do so and afford me the courtesy and respect of answering instead of suggesting a possible response that I might use and thus painting me in advance with a position that I may not subscribe to.

I will note that the very questions you ask of ci parents contains one of the factors that we included in our cochlear implant decision for our child: that with the cochlear implant she would always have the option to choose not to use it later in life. The cochlear implant did and continues to give our daughter benefits and options she would not necessarily or as easily have if we chose not to give her the cochlear implant.
Rick

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Hi Jenny, I am going answer your questions based only on what I have told my children.

This is what I find funny, apperently the deaf people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the hearing people don't know whats best for the deaf people, and the professionals don't know whats best for the deaf people....so who does?

I think the answer to my own question is the individual.

Rick, and whomever else is lurking here with children with CI's, if your child came to you and said they wanted to learn ASL,

I would tell my children that it is their choice and that I would help find them an ASL class.

would you let them? Yes, they are old enough to make their own decisions
If your child came to you and didn't want to use their CI everyday, would you let them?

I would tell my children that both have CI that it was their decision, I would ask them why and respect and honor their decision

If your child wanted to discover Deaf culture, would you let them?
I would let them discover the Deaf culture and ask them if I could go this journey with them
Do not answer those questions with it won't happen either because I have friends who it has happened to. They all have perfectly amazing oral skills and can hear well enough to discriminate and understand speech with their CI's, but when they were about 16 they just stopped using them for one reason or another and by THEIR choice went and discovered their Deaf identities.

So as a parent, in that situation, what would you do?

Since my children were about 12 or 13, I have told them that they are old enough to make these sort of decisions on their own. I have told them that if they want they can take off their implant and stop using their voices and that I and their father would do whatever they want us too like take ASL classes, look for people in the Deaf culture, and my children so far have chosen to leave their implants on, use their voices, and stay at their hearing high school and that's their choice. The ages of my children right now are 18 and 16

 

[rick48]

You are so right!!! language delays can be caused by so many different reasons.

Jackie,

WECLOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Your posts are sights for sore eyes!

Rick

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Jackie,

WECLOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Your posts are sights for sore eyes!

Rick

"when we were investigating schools for our daughter we visited, numerous times, the three deaf schools in our area (one oral and two TC). What we were able to determine and my wife was an elementary school teacher with a Masters in Special Ed (which she currently teaches) was that the academic standards and results at both the TC schools were woefully lacking and not what we wanted for our child. When we looked at everything, the higher academic standards, the small class sizes and small size of our SD (1300 kids K-12) plus dedicated Special Ed and School Administrators who wanted our child, not just to graduate but to succeed in their school, made our decision an easy one. For us, and most importantly, for our child, her mainstream experience was rewarding both academically and socially."

I was reading one of your posts. It hit me that this is why we chose an oral/mainstream education for my children. I look at the local residental school and many TC and oral programs. I just could not accept that my children were only going to be expected to read at a 3rd grade level. It was the low academic expected of children in TC placement that made us try an oral program then the ability to talk. That my children are able to talk is just added bonsus.