Oregon community college shooting, multiple casualties

[DeafDucky]

It's a quote by Clare when talking about someone elses reseach. It's not in the study. I see some of my posts are gone too. Don't know if it's a technical problem?

could be vanishing posts that got caught in the migration recently.

 

[seb]

We're obviusly going to disagree about that number so I'll ask you this. Why should we make drastic legal changes based on a single study? A study that based it's entire hypothesis on the speculation that individuals in their very small sample group have asd?

We have to do something to keep these killers or people that are apt to be killers from getting their hands on firearms and if a study or studies say that people with ASD are more prone that other members of society to commit these types of crimes than it may be a good place to start. by requiring them to get a psychological evaluation in order to buy a firearm. Personally I would like to see every person who want's to buy a gun have to go through a psychological evaluation before they can make the purchase, it might weed out a good number of people who shouldn't be owning guns, because they could be a danger to themselves and more importantly to others. I would also like to see public service announcements that urge people who suspect that family members might be mentally unbalanced or be having "mental issues" be urged to get them help or alert the authorities, to often these killers have acted and only then do family or friends come forward and say the person had some "mental issues" they were dealing with.

 

[Reba]

We have to do something to keep these killers or people that are apt to be killers from getting their hands on firearms and if a study or studies say that people with ASD are more prone that other members of society to commit these types of crimes than it may be a good place to start. by requiring them to get a psychological evaluation in order to buy a firearm. Personally I would like to see every person who want's to buy a gun have to go through a psychological evaluation before they can make the purchase, it might weed out a good number of people who shouldn't be owning guns, because they could be a danger to themselves and more importantly to others.

Totally unrealistic.

There is no proof that people with ASD or any other syndrome, condition or disorder will become mass murderers.

Psychological testing/evaluating for possible murderous tendencies without probable cause would be a huge infringement of rights. I shudder to think what criteria the government's thought police might come up with.

I would also like to see public service announcements that urge people who suspect that family members might be mentally unbalanced or be having "mental issues" be urged to get them help or alert the authorities, to often these killers have acted and only then do family or friends come forward and say the person had some "mental issues" they were dealing with.

Good luck with that. Often those same family members and friends are the ones enabling the killers to get weapons that they shouldn't have had. They're the same ones, especially the moms, who shelter their sons from other individuals and organizations who might have intervened.

 

[seb]

Totally unrealistic.

There is no proof that people with ASD or any other syndrome, condition or disorder will become mass murderers.

Psychological testing/evaluating for possible murderous tendencies without probable cause would be a huge infringement of rights. I shudder to think what criteria the government's thought police might come up with.


Good luck with that. Often those same family members and friends are the ones enabling the killers to get weapons that they shouldn't have had. They're the same ones, especially the moms, who shelter their sons from other individuals and organizations who might have intervened.

So you're okay with the status quo and having these almost monthly shootings at schools, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. I know Jonny has said the numbers I have used are only based on one study, but until another study or studies comes along to either prove or disprove its findings I think we have to go with its findings. Something clearly has to be done and if the price of making us safer is a more thorough background check that tests a persons mental well being in order to weed out some of these killers to be, I think it is a small price to pay. I'm not talking about taking away guns from people who are responsible owners or keeping them from buying more, just keeping those who shouldn't be allowed to own one is kept from buying one in the first place. Gun owners are quick to proclaim that having armed citizens save lives and make us safer, but there is no evidence that has ever proved it and the only thing that has been proven is that some of these armed people have actually killed themselves when their guns discharged accidentally.

 

[jonnyghost]

Are Curvy Women More Intelligent?
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=3859175

"What they report is that women with waists that were about 70 percent of the diameter of their hips scored slightly better on intelligence tests and tended to have a slightly higher level of education than women with a higher waist-to-hip ratio, or WHR."

Oh wow, we only need to let women with hips into college and we don't even need to test them.

Bigfoot lives!? Existence backed by DNA, video, claim Sasquatch Genome Project researchers
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bigfoot-existence-backed-dna-video-report-article-1.1473883

""We want people to understand that this is a serious study," Dr. Melba Ketchum, a genetics scientist, who led the project during the course of the five-year study, told CBS DFW."

Oh look, Bigfoot is real!

 

[jonnyghost]

I don't know how else to prove to you that there is no weight to this study. You don't have to be right to get one published. You don't have to follow the scientific method. You don't have to use good practice or even facts. You don't have to have a degree or apparently you don't even have to be real.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...a-study-by-maggie-simpson-and-edna-krabappel/

Maybe I should start submitting some papers!

 

[jonnyghost]

So you're okay with the status quo and having these almost monthly shootings at schools, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. I know Jonny has said the numbers I have used are only based on one study, but until another study or studies comes along to either prove or disprove its findings I think we have to go with its findings. Something clearly has to be done and if the price of making us safer is a more thorough background check that tests a persons mental well being in order to weed out some of these killers to be, I think it is a small price to pay. I'm not talking about taking away guns from people who are responsible owners or keeping them from buying more, just keeping those who shouldn't be allowed to own one is kept from buying one in the first place. Gun owners are quick to proclaim that having armed citizens save lives and make us safer, but there is no evidence that has ever proved it and the only thing that has been proven is that some of these armed people have actually killed themselves when their guns discharged accidentally.

Want hard proof? Mass shootings stopped by armed citizens:
Pearl High School 1997
Parker Middle School 1998
Appalachian School of Law 2002
New Life Church 2007
New York Mills AT&T Store 2010
Sullivan Central High School 2010
Freewill Baptist Church 2012
Clackamas Town Center Mall 2012
Mystic Strip Club 2014
Austin, Texas Construction Site 2014
Cache Valley Hospital 2014
Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital 2014

If guns don't deter crime then why do all these shootings happen in gun free zones?

 

[seb]

Want hard proof? Mass shootings stopped by armed citizens:
Pearl High School 1997
Parker Middle School 1998
Appalachian School of Law 2002
New Life Church 2007
New York Mills AT&T Store 2010
Sullivan Central High School 2010
Freewill Baptist Church 2012
Clackamas Town Center Mall 2012
Mystic Strip Club 2014
Austin, Texas Construction Site 2014
Cache Valley Hospital 2014
Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital 2014

If guns don't deter crime then why do all these shootings happen in gun free zones?

I could give you a bigger list of when they were unsuccessful, but won't bore you with the gory details. I also won't bore you with the details with how many innocent people have been killed by someone with a gun who thought they were in danger by someone who posed no threat to them and they found it out after they had shot and killed them. Here is another study for you: www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/.../mass-shootings-ma..

 

[seb]

We're obviusly going to disagree about that number so I'll ask you this. Why should we make drastic legal changes based on a single study? A study that based it's entire hypothesis on the speculation that individuals in their very small sample group have asd?

How many studies do we have to have saying the same thing and how many of these shootings do you want before we do something? Also the sample group IS SMALL and hopefully will stay small. Thankfully there have only been 143 of these shootings since 1985, so yes, your not going to get a large sample to base the study on, however, the small numbers in the study make it easy to crunch and they don't lie.

 

[Reba]

So you're okay with the status quo and having these almost monthly shootings at schools, movie theaters, restaurants, etc.

Of course not but if that's what you want to spin . . .

I know Jonny has said the numbers I have used are only based on one study, but until another study or studies comes along to either prove or disprove its findings I think we have to go with its findings. Something clearly has to be done and if the price of making us safer is a more thorough background check that tests a persons mental well being in order to weed out some of these killers to be, I think it is a small price to pay. I'm not talking about taking away guns from people who are responsible owners or keeping them from buying more, just keeping those who shouldn't be allowed to own one is kept from buying one in the first place.

So, if you're not going to take guns away, what would you do about crazies who already possess guns before an intensive psychological background check is done?

Gun owners are quick to proclaim that having armed citizens save lives and make us safer, but there is no evidence that has ever proved it and the only thing that has been proven is that some of these armed people have actually killed themselves when their guns discharged accidentally.

Not true. Every week I read about someone either preventing criminal attacks, or mitigating their damage by being armed. Of course, these events aren't as covered by the media because mass casualties were averted--that's not such a "sexy" story.

In this case, you really do not have the facts.

 

[jonnyghost]

That wasn't an all inclusive list it just some highlights.

I'm not gonna start grabbing links from the NRA website because they are biased but I'm also not gonna read links from motherjones.com for the same reason. We both know what side of the argument they are on and I don't think it brings anything to the conversation. If you have some solid data please just cite your source.

 

[jonnyghost]

How many studies do we have to have saying the same thing and how many of these shootings do you want before we do something? Also the sample group IS SMALL and hopefully will stay small. Thankfully there have only been 143 of these shootings since 1985, so yes, your not going to get a large sample to base the study on, however, the small numbers in the study make it easy to crunch and they don't lie.

How many people in the study where diagnosed with ASD?

 

[whatdidyousay!]

So you're okay with the status quo and having these almost monthly shootings at schools, movie theaters, restaurants, etc. I know Jonny has said the numbers I have used are only based on one study, but until another study or studies comes along to either prove or disprove its findings I think we have to go with its findings. Something clearly has to be done and if the price of making us safer is a more thorough background check that tests a persons mental well being in order to weed out some of these killers to be, I think it is a small price to pay. I'm not talking about taking away guns from people who are responsible owners or keeping them from buying more, just keeping those who shouldn't be allowed to own one is kept from buying one in the first place. Gun owners are quick to proclaim that having armed citizens save lives and make us safer, but there is no evidence that has ever proved it and the only thing that has been proven is that some of these armed people have actually killed themselves when their guns discharged accidentally.

A background check would not had stop the Newtown, Ct shooting, the
shooter used his mother's guns . Part of the problem was that the mother had to wait too long for a court date to declare her son incompetence
so she could have him locked up. If smoke a joint you get locked up on the spot , but it take 30 days to get person in court to be declare incompetence . If a person can't buy a guy and they really want to do a lot people harm they will find other ways, a pressure cooker can be brought by anyone

 

[seb]

Want hard proof? Mass shootings stopped by armed citizens:
Pearl High School 1997
Parker Middle School 1998
Appalachian School of Law 2002
New Life Church 2007
New York Mills AT&T Store 2010
Sullivan Central High School 2010
Freewill Baptist Church 2012
Clackamas Town Center Mall 2012
Mystic Strip Club 2014
Austin, Texas Construction Site 2014
Cache Valley Hospital 2014
Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital 2014

If guns don't deter crime then why do all these shootings happen in gun free zones?

In the above incidents some shootings still happened and some never happened before the shooter or potential shooter was taken out and not knowing their intent or whether they were finished nothing was actually prevented other than the shooter or potential shooter was stopped.

-Pearl HS- killed two, wounded 7 others and was captured as he attempted to leave the parking lot by the principal who had a 45.
-Parker Middle School- killed one, wounded three others before confronted.
-Appalachian School of Law-Three killed, three wounded. Apprehended by two armed students as he was leaving.
-New Life Church-shooter killed 4, wounded 5 before being shot and then taking his own life
-NY Mills AT & T store-Killed nobody before being shot to death by off duty police officer.
-Sullivan Central-possible shooting of principal stopped by security officer.
-Freewell Baptist church- man pointed shotgun at pastor but never shot, was disarmed by pastors son who had gun.
Clackamas Town Center- Gunman entered mall with AR-15 opened fire killing 2 and wounding one before dropping his three magazines, then entered stairwell and committed suicide.
-Mystic Strip Club- 3 shot and wounded before being shot by security guard.
-Austin TX construction site- worker who was fired came back and shot foreman who fired him, who then shot the gunman.
-Cache Valley Hospital-Man entered emergency room, made demands, never fired his weapon and was shot by a parole agent who was at the hospital.
-Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital- Patient with psychiatric issues killed one and wounded one before the wounded doctor shot the suspect three times.

 

[DeafDucky]

Personally I would like to see every person who want's to buy a gun have to go through a psychological evaluation before they can make the purchase, it might weed out a good number of people who shouldn't be owning guns, because they could be a danger to themselves and more importantly to others.

As Reba said- completely unrealistic. To add to her points, there is the fact that many people can (and probably DO) fake their way through a psychological evaluation. Some can't but betting a majority will know how to game the system enough to get what they want. That isn't the answer.

As have been said before- there are no easy answers. One side bellows theirs is right the other side bellows that THEY'RE right but neither are willing to come to the table to even talk about it.

But I can for sure say that psych evaluations for ALL is not the way to go.

 

[seb]

A background check would not had stop the Newtown, Ct shooting, the
shooter used his mother's guns . Part of the problem was that the mother had to wait too long for a court date to declare her son incompetence
so she could have him locked up. If smoke a joint you get locked up on the spot , but it take 30 days to get person in court to be declare incompetence . If a person can't buy a guy and they really want to do a lot people harm they will find other ways, a pressure cooker can be brought by anyone

Your absolutely right. However, if his crazy mother or other family members who knew he had issues had alerted authorities, got him help, or at the very least if his mother had kept the many guns she had in the house locked up in a real safe or at some other site, he may of never had a chance of committing the murders.

 

[jonnyghost]

So since a citizen stopped a potential shooter we can't classify it as a prevented shooting? That's like saying you can't prove seat belts work because the wearers survived so there is no proof they would have died.

In the above incidents some shootings still happened and some never happened before the shooter or potential shooter was taken out and not knowing their intent or whether they were finished nothing was actually prevented other than the shooter or potential shooter was stopped.

-Pearl HS- killed two, wounded 7 others and was captured as he attempted to leave the parking lot by the principal who had a 45.
-Parker Middle School- killed one, wounded three others before confronted.
-Appalachian School of Law-Three killed, three wounded. Apprehended by two armed students as he was leaving.
-New Life Church-shooter killed 4, wounded 5 before being shot and then taking his own life
-NY Mills AT & T store-Killed nobody before being shot to death by off duty police officer.
-Sullivan Central-possible shooting of principal stopped by security officer.
-Freewell Baptist church- man pointed shotgun at pastor but never shot, was disarmed by pastors son who had gun.
Clackamas Town Center- Gunman entered mall with AR-15 opened fire killing 2 and wounding one before dropping his three magazines, then entered stairwell and committed suicide.
-Mystic Strip Club- 3 shot and wounded before being shot by security guard.
-Austin TX construction site- worker who was fired came back and shot foreman who fired him, who then shot the gunman.
-Cache Valley Hospital-Man entered emergency room, made demands, never fired his weapon and was shot by a parole agent who was at the hospital.
-Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital- Patient with psychiatric issues killed one and wounded one before the wounded doctor shot the suspect three times.

 

[DeafDucky]

Your absolutely right. However, if his crazy mother or other family members who knew he had issues had alerted authorities, got him help, or at the very least if his mother had kept the many guns she had in the house locked up in a real safe or at some other site, he may of never had a chance of committing the murders.

may being the key word. There's still no guarantee he wouldn't have done it anyway. People get fooled all the time on how "well" a person is doing. Wouldn't surprise me if while his mother knew, she either saw minimal issues or more likely denied it (really- mental illness is still stigmatized in this day and age and it won't get any better even with all the education in the world- or at least IMHO).

 

[seb]

So since a citizen stopped a potential shooter we can't classify it as a prevented shooting? That's like saying you can't prove seat belts work because the wearers survived so there is no proof they would have died.

How can you call it a shooting if nobody is shot? Of your list only 4 were stopped by citizens, the others either killed themselves or were apprehended or shot by officers of the law who were at the scene for one reason or another.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

Your absolutely right. However, if his crazy mother or other family members who knew he had issues had alerted authorities, got him help, or at the very least if his mother had kept the many guns she had in the house locked up in a real safe or at some other site, he may of never had a chance of committing the murders.

The guns were locked up but the son still go his hands on them when he found out his mom was trying to get him locked up . The parents did not live together anymore . It would be very hard to hide guns from a teenager ,they can reach high places in the house . And you can by guns from a gun show without having a background check according a news
report I saw on TV. My state is very strict on people by a gun , you have a background and take a gun safety course . I was going to buy myself a hand gun but didn't.