Oregon community college shooting, multiple casualties

[Reba]

In the above incidents some shootings still happened and some never happened before the shooter or potential shooter was taken out and not knowing their intent or whether they were finished nothing was actually prevented other than the shooter or potential shooter was stopped….

So, you discount the lives that were saved? Since some people were shot, you would have preferred the gunman not be stopped by an armed citizen but continue shooting until more were shot?

 

[jonnyghost]

How can you call it a shooting if nobody is shot? Of your list only 4 were stopped by citizens, the others either killed themselves or were apprehended or shot by officers of the law who were at the scene for one reason or another.

Yes but they prevented the shooter from killing until they killed themselves or where shot by police. So they stopped the shooter.

 

[jonnyghost]

Seb, maybe you missed my post before. I would like to know How many people in the study where diagnosed with ASD?

 

[Reba]

Your absolutely right. However, if his crazy mother or other family members who knew he had issues had alerted authorities, got him help, or at the very least if his mother had kept the many guns she had in the house locked up in a real safe or at some other site, he may of never had a chance of committing the murders.

They could have done that without doing a psychological background check. In fact, since he didn't buy the guns himself, a buyer's background check wouldn't have prevented him from access to the family's guns. If the mother knew her son was troubled she should have kept them locked up. We don't know what kind of safe she had but even the best safe is no good if it's not locked and access controlled. She could have also kept them away from home, at a gun range in a locked cabinet.

Some people with mental problems can appear rational and easily pass a psychological evaluation if they are on their meds. Then, they go off their meds and go on the attack. So, a background check can't predict that happening.

 

[jonnyghost]

Background checks only show what happened in the past. You can't remove someones rights for something they haven't done unless you can prove that they are mentally incompetent or should be institutionalized.

 

[seb]

The guns were locked up but the son still go his hands on them when he found out his mom was trying to get him locked up . The parents did not live together anymore . It would be very hard to hide guns from a teenager ,they can reach high places in the house . And you can by guns from a gun show without having a background check according a news
report I saw on TV. My state is very strict on people by a gun , you have a background and take a gun safety course . I was going to buy myself a hand gun but didn't.

If you know your child has mental issues( which she did) you don't teach him to shoot guns and you definitely don't keep them around the house. She paid the ultimate price for her stupidity, but unfortunately she allowed her son to kill a lot of other innocent people too.

 

[seb]

So, you discount the lives that were saved? Since some people were shot, you would have preferred the gunman not be stopped by an armed citizen but continue shooting until more were shot?

Look up the shootings mentioned like I did and you will find that basically all the shooting had stopped before the gunman either killed himself, was shot by someone or was apprehended by someone. If the gunman has killed himself, it's impossible for him to shoot more people.

 

[seb]

Yes but they prevented the shooter from killing until they killed themselves or where shot by police. So they stopped the shooter.

No, read the reports of the shootings you cited and you will see the shootings either never happened or had already stopped before they were killed, apprehended or killed themselves. Of the people who never shot anyone, they weren't even charged, but were put under medical care.

 

[Reba]

If you know your child has mental issues( which she did) you don't teach him to shoot guns and you definitely don't keep them around the house. She paid the ultimate price for her stupidity, but unfortunately she allowed her son to kill a lot of other innocent people too.

A requirement for psychological background checks of gun buyers would not have prevented his attack since he wasn't the buyer.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

They could have done that without doing a psychological background check. In fact, since he didn't buy the guns himself, a buyer's background check wouldn't have prevented him from access to the family's guns. If the mother knew her son was troubled she should have kept them locked up. We don't know what kind of safe she had but even the best safe is no good if it's not locked and access controlled. She could have also kept them away from home, at a gun range in a locked cabinet.

Some people with mental problems can appear rational and easily pass a psychological evaluation if they are on their meds. Then, they go off their meds and go on the attack. So, a background check can't predict that happening.

The police found the gun box opened and it was not broken into , so the son could of found the key or it was left open . His mother took her son with her to the shooting range b/c he could not be left along. It really sounds like the mother wasn't thinking very good or had issues herself.
She knew her son was dangerous , she told someone never to turn his back to her son or he would harm him. I really think the court system
failed to work big time by having a 30 days wait for a court hearing to get the shooter to be declare incompetence like the his mom wanted him to be.

 

[seb]

QUOTE=whatdidyousay!;2445628]The police found the gun box opened and it was not broken into , so the son could of found the key or it was left open . His mother took her son with her to the shooting range b/c he could not be left along. It really sounds like the mother wasn't thinking very good or had issues herself.
She knew her son was dangerous , she told someone never to turn his back to her son or he would harm him. I really think the court system
failed to work big time by having a 30 days wait for a court hearing to get the shooter to be declare incompetence like the his mom wanted him to be.[/QUOTE]

I believe you can put someone under an involuntary 72 hour mental health hold in pretty much every state in the Union if you think they are an imminent danger to others or themselves.

If you read the final police report they said the guns were in an unlocked simple gun cabinet. Nancy Lanza's reason for taking him to the gun range was that was the only place they could bond, otherwise he kept to himself and would not communicate with her according to her sister in law. Prior to the shooting he hadn't been out of his room in the three months and two weeks before the shooting Nancy Lanza told a friend that Adam was becoming increasingly despondent and only communicating with her through emails. His mother also refused to give him the medication that had been prescribed because she blamed the medication for Adam not being able to raise his arms. From what I've read on her she seemed to be in complete denial about her sons medical condition and the danger he presented to herself and others. Also the reports of his mother having him committed have never been substantiated and in fact Nancy Lanza was planning on selling the house and moving to WA state so her son could attend a special school so he could eventually get a job.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

QUOTE=whatdidyousay!;2445628]The police found the gun box opened and it was not broken into , so the son could of found the key or it was left open . His mother took her son with her to the shooting range b/c he could not be left along. It really sounds like the mother wasn't thinking very good or had issues herself.
She knew her son was dangerous , she told someone never to turn his back to her son or he would harm him. I really think the court system
failed to work big time by having a 30 days wait for a court hearing to get the shooter to be declare incompetence like the his mom wanted him to be.

I believe you can put someone under an involuntary 72 hour mental health hold in pretty much every state in the Union if you think they are an imminent danger to others or themselves.

If you read the final police report they said the guns were in an unlocked simple gun cabinet. Nancy Lanza's reason for taking him to the gun range was that was the only place they could bond, otherwise he kept to himself and would not communicate with her according to her sister in law. Prior to the shooting he hadn't been out of his room in the three months and two weeks before the shooting Nancy Lanza told a friend that Adam was becoming increasingly despondent and only communicating with her through emails. His mother also refused to give him the medication that had been prescribed because she blamed the medication for Adam not being able to raise his arms. From what I've read on her she seemed to be in complete denial about her sons medical condition and the danger he presented to herself and others. Also the reports of his mother having him committed have never been substantiated and in fact Nancy Lanza was planning on selling the house and moving to WA state so her son could attend a special school so he could eventually get a job.[/QUOTE]

I read that when the son found out his mother was trying to have him committed was when he killed her then he committed mass murder .

 

[seb]

[
I read that when the son found out his mother was trying to have him committed was when he killed her then he committed mass murder .[/QUOTE]

According to the official police report that was never corroborated or could be proven because they were both dead and nothing was said about it in the note Adam left under his pillow.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

Background checks only show what happened in the past. You can't remove someones rights for something they haven't done unless you can prove that they are mentally incompetent or should be institutionalized.

Some people are very good at hiding their mental illness , some people seem to think all people with mental illness look crazy or cut their ear off and send it to their g/f .

 

[seb]

Background checks only show what happened in the past. You can't remove someones rights for something they haven't done unless you can prove that they are mentally incompetent or should be institutionalized.

That's why you would have to submit to a mental health wellness check before you were allowed to purchase a firearm. Yes, Adam Lanza didn't buy any of his guns, his mother did, but some people that knew Nancy Lanza said she had her own mental problems and had actually been diagnosed with brain lesions, so she might not of passed the background check if she had been subjected to one.

 

[seb]

A requirement for psychological background checks of gun buyers would not have prevented his attack since he wasn't the buyer.

Since some of her friends have said that she too suffered from some mental health issues as well as diagnosed brain lesions, she might not of passed a screening process if one was in place.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

Since some of her friends have said that she too suffered from some mental health issues as well as diagnosed brain lesions, she might not of passed a screening process if one was in place.

But that is only hearsay and would not keep her from buying a gun. And a person can lie about their medical history or been treated in another state and background check could miss that.

 

[jonnyghost]

That's why you would have to submit to a mental health wellness check before you were allowed to purchase a firearm. Yes, Adam Lanza didn't buy any of his guns, his mother did, but some people that knew Nancy Lanza said she had her own mental problems and had actually been diagnosed with brain lesions, so she might not of passed the background check if she had been subjected to one.

Maybe everyone should have to have a wellness check. We could make one manditory once a year Just to keep dangerouse people off the streets. While we're at it if we're going to search peoples brains why don't don't we search their houses to. That way we can make sure they're not doing anything bad.

 

[jonnyghost]

I still want to know how many people in the study where diagnosed with ASD. You said the numbers where clear.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/04/mental-illness-crime.aspx


Asperger was not even brought up in article about mental illness and crime.


April 21, 2014

Mental Illness Not Usually Linked to Crime, Research Finds

Most offenders didn’t display pattern of crime related to mental illness symptoms over their lifetime, according to study



Related
How Often and How Consistently do Symptoms Directly Precede Criminal Behavior Among Offenders With Mental Illness? (PDF, 168KB)


WASHINGTON — In a study of crimes committed by people with serious mental disorders, only 7.5 percent were directly related to symptoms of mental illness, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.

Researchers analyzed 429 crimes committed by 143 offenders with three major types of mental illness and found that 3 percent of their crimes were directly related to symptoms of major depression, 4 percent to symptoms of schizophrenia disorders and 10 percent to symptoms of bipolar disorder.

“When we hear about crimes committed by people with mental illness, they tend to be big headline-making crimes so they get stuck in people’s heads,” said lead researcher Jillian Peterson, PhD. “The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent, not criminal and not dangerous.”

The study was conducted with former defendants of a mental health court in Minneapolis. The participants completed a two-hour interview about their criminal history and mental health symptoms, covering an average of 15 years. The study, published online in the APA journal Law and Human Behavior, may be the first to analyze the connection between crime and mental illness symptoms for offenders over an extended period of their lives, said Peterson, a psychology professor at Normandale Community College in Bloomington, Minn.

The study didn’t find any predictable patterns linking criminal conduct and mental illness symptoms over time. Two-thirds of the offenders who had committed crimes directly related to their mental illness symptoms also had committed unrelated crimes for other reasons, such as poverty, unemployment, homelessness and substance abuse, according to the research. “Is there a small group of people with mental illness committing crimes again and again because of their symptoms? We didn’t find that in this study,” Peterson said.

In the United States, more than 1.2 million people with mental illness are incarcerated in jails or prisons, according to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics. People with mental illnesses also are on probation or parole at two to four times the rate for the general population.

In addition to interviews with offenders, the researchers reviewed criminal history and social worker files to help rate crimes based on their association with symptoms of schizophrenia disorders (hallucinations and delusions), bipolar disorder (impulsivity and risk-taking behavior) or major depression (hopelessness and suicidal thoughts). The ratings were: no relationship between mental illness symptoms and the crime, mostly unrelated, mostly related or directly related.

A crime could be rated as mostly unrelated or mostly related to mental illness symptoms if those symptoms contributed to the cause of the crime but weren’t solely responsible for it. For example, an offender with schizophrenia who was agitated because he heard voices earlier in the day later got into a bar fight, but he wasn’t hearing voices at the time of the altercation, so the crime was categorized as mostly related.

When the directly related and mostly related categories were combined, the percentage of crimes attributed to mental illness symptoms increased from 7.5 percent to 18 percent, or less than 1 in 5 of the crimes analyzed in the study. Of crimes committed by participants with bipolar disorder, 62 percent were directly or mostly related to symptoms, compared with 23 percent for schizophrenia and 15 percent for depression. Some participants may have described their mood as “manic” during a crime even though they could have just been angry or abusing drugs or alcohol, so the percentage of crimes attributed to bipolar disorder may be inflated, Peterson said.

Almost two-thirds of the study participants were male, with an average age of 40. They were evenly divided between white and black offenders (42 percent each, 16 percent other races), and 85 percent had substance abuse disorders. The study did not include offenders with serious violent offenses because the mental health court did not adjudicate those crimes, but the participants did describe other violent crimes they had committed. The study also did not examine how substance abuse interacted with mental illness to influence criminal behavior.

The researchers said programs designed to reduce recidivism for mentally ill offenders should be expanded beyond mental health treatment to include cognitive-behavioral treatment about criminal thinking, anger management and other behavioral issues. Programs to address basic needs also are essential to reduce recidivism for all offenders after incarceration, including drug treatment and housing and employment support, Peterson said.

Article: “How Often and How Consistently do Symptoms Directly Precede Criminal Behavior Among Offenders With Mental Illness?”; Jillian Peterson, PhD, Normandale Community College; Patrick Kennealy, PhD, University of South Florida; Jennifer Skeem, PhD, University of California-Irvine; Beth Bray, BA, University of North Dakota; and Andrea Zvonkovic, BA, Columbia University; Law and Human Behavior, online April 15, 2014.

Jillian Peterson can be contacted by email or by phone at (651) 434-9427.

The American Psychological Association, in Washington, D.C., is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States. APA's membership includes nearly 130,000 researchers, educators, clinicians, consultants and students. Through its divisions in 54 subfields of psychology and affiliations with 60 state, territorial and Canadian provincial associations, APA works to advance the creation, communication and application of psychological knowledge to benefit society and improve people's lives.