"Letting the Child Decide"

[Cloggy]

How come you are asking me questions about hearing children? This is going off the topic. We are specificly talking about CI users. Not hearing children. And YOU dont need to explain for the CI users. Let them explain to us. This is where people miss the concept, feelings from CI users, not parents without CI user.

So you don't get the idea..... it can be hard to find the CI-user between all the "normal" hearing children.....

This sounds like your daughter is not meeting all of criterias(questions). Are you hiding something? Is your daughter really ok?

beetarehoh

Not hiding anything, my daughter is doing great.
Haven't you met her yet..

What do you really mean when you say "Is your daughter really ok?"?

 

[beetarehoh]

So you don't get the idea..... it can be hard to find the CI-user between all the "normal" hearing children.....


Not hiding anything, my daughter is doing great.
Haven't you met her yet..

What do you really mean when you say "Is your daughter really ok?"?

Cloggy, Didnt I tell you thats its great that your daughter learns sign and verbal? I am trying to have a temperament conversation because I like to express my feelings with my questions and views. If you and Neecy gets really anxioty (sp)about this and express with your angers then nothing will be learned.

I really want to learn about your environment. I totally respect your wishes. I am only here to express my views and questions without being smashed.

My mother thought I was doing great learning only oral until I was around 7 years old, I had escalations of angerment, emotional disruptions, not understanding why I was not the same as hearing people. It was a MESS! It got worse and worse until I was 16. My mother LOVES me regardless of what happened between us. My mother have very high spirited mind and she wants the best for me.

At 16 I entered the deaf only culture, by all means NO mainstream. It was the FIRST time I learned ASL. Although my oral speech was really good, I felt for the first time that I FEEL the same as other deaf and hard of hearing peers with or without CI. They felt the pressure from ORAL. They do not want to learn ORAL because they feel comfortable to learn ASL. It was a much relief for them as well as for ME.

So my question to you again:

Is your daughter really doing ok?

May be hard for me to meet your daughter since she is probably on the other side of the globe.

beetarehoh

 

[Cloggy]

Cloggy, Didnt I tell you thats its great that your daughter learns sign and verbal? I am trying to have a temperament conversation because I like to express my feelings with my questions and views. If you and Neecy gets really anxioty (sp)about this and express with your angers then nothing will be learned.

I really want to learn about your environment. I totally respect your wishes. I am only here to express my views and questions without being smashed.

My mother thought I was doing great learning only oral until I was around 7 years old, I had escalations of angerment, emotional disruptions, not understanding why I was not the same as hearing people. It was a MESS! It got worse and worse until I was 16. My mother LOVES me regardless of what happened between us. My mother have very high spirited mind and she wants the best for me.

At 16 I entered the deaf only culture, by all means NO mainstream. It was the FIRST time I learned ASL. Although my oral speech was really good, I felt for the first time that I FEEL the same as other deaf and hard of hearing peers with or without CI. They felt the pressure from ORAL. They do not want to learn ORAL because they feel comfortable to learn ASL. It was a much relief for them as well as for ME.

So my question to you again:

Is your daughter really doing ok?

May be hard for me to meet your daughter since she is probably on the other side of the globe.

beetarehoh

Allright,
that explains some, and btw, you can meet her on her blog... (See below)

Still, in what way would she not be OK?

Tell me, you could speak OK, but were you able to hear?

 

[Cloggy]

Wow...just asking a question and if u don't want to answer it, don't instead of twisting things around and making assumptions about my question. I guess I better stop asking any questions to help me open up my views on this subject. Thanks for the help.

It would be a shame if you stopped asking questions.

Just don't dress them up like accusations and insinuations.

 

[shel90]

It would be a shame if you stopped asking questions.

Just don't dress them up like accusations and insinuations.

Honest ..I wasnt thinking in an accusing manner. If there are any questions I ask that u dont like, u dont have to answer. It is not really a big deal. I was just curious about some things. Oh well. I got over it.

 

[rick48]

rick48

What kind of background does this CI user have? Are they the same as your daughter/son? Technology may have improve and self-esteem too?

What I mean in a smooth and fluent socializing is, you DONT repeat what everybody is saying to your daughter/son, and your daughter/son can answer every single question or comments with everybody correctly and clearly by her/himself, and everybody is talking fast and the verbal does not leave behind your daughter/son.

The kind of group setting I am talking about is like 3 to 10 people are TOGETHER either playing games, watching sports, while all of the hearing people can hear each other. Maybe your daughter/son can do well in quiet environment but what about people who are playing games? If you dont mind pay close attention to your daughter then reply back. I am very curious if it works. Thanks.

I have been paying "close attention" to my daughter for her entire life. I do not need you to ask me to do so.

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that you made a statement that you do not believe that there are any fluent ci users and now you have given a meaning to fluency that I do not think my hearing daughter would be able to meet.

Sorry but I am not going to sit here and recite the background of every ci user I have met for the least 20 years. Bottomline, we have been close to 3 other families over the years and just as an example, between us there are 6 profoundly deaf ci users between 17-21 all in or going to college, all oral, all, except one got there cis before the age of 4, all mainstreamed, all great kids, all doing fine.

Do they hear every single word every single time in every single setting imaginable? No but then again, no one else does. But with there cis and the therapy they recieived growing up they can carry on a conversation in the dark, or from another room, if they are out of a person's line of sight, if they have their back turned to you or you to them and so on and so on.

But you know what, it does not matter what I say because you choose not to believe it anyway. For you, and many others, there will always be another "what if", "whatever", "how do we know". It does not matter what you think, what matters is that some parent reading this who is considering an ci for their child will realize that these children and adults do exist. That those parents will meet these kids and adults in person and see for themselves how people with cis are living their lives.

 

[beetarehoh]

I have been paying "close attention" to my daughter for her entire life. I do not need you to ask me to do so.

Ok, I guess I wont ask about your daughter anymore, just trying to understand your perspective about your child.

[/QUOTE]
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that you made a statement that you do not believe that there are any fluent ci users and now you have given a meaning to fluency that I do not think my hearing daughter would be able to meet.[/QUOTE]

I am not losing sight: I am talking about the WHOLE package relating to oral only CI users in social setting.

[/QUOTE]
Sorry but I am not going to sit here and recite the background of every ci user I have met for the least 20 years. Bottomline, we have been close to 3 other families over the years and just as an example, between us there are 6 profoundly deaf ci users between 17-21 all in or going to college, all oral, all, except one got there cis before the age of 4, all mainstreamed, all great kids, all doing fine. [/QUOTE]

Why? I thought we are suppose to compare similarity. They all are doing fine? I find that hard to believe.

[/QUOTE]
Do they hear every single word every single time in every single setting imaginable? No but then again, no one else does. But with there cis and the therapy they recieived growing up they can carry on a conversation in the dark, or from another room, if they are out of a person's line of sight, if they have their back turned to you or you to them and so on and so on.
[/QUOTE]

I guess you are still missing my point, but that's ok. She is your daughter and I got the feeling you are a very good person doing the best for her.

[/QUOTE]
But you know what, it does not matter what I say because you choose not to believe it anyway. For you, and many others, there will always be another "what if", "whatever", "how do we know". It does not matter what you think, what matters is that some parent reading this who is considering an ci for their child will realize that these children and adults do exist. That those parents will meet these kids and adults in person and see for themselves how people with cis are living their lives.[/QUOTE]

I am not saying I will NOT believe at all. I believe AT this time. I have seen low success rate on ORAL CI user. That is my perspective. For example: One girl I knew for 6 years has an implant just after birth. She is now 21 years old and her life is a mess. She is relying on SSI income. She got fired two times. Although she grew up in wonderful family, I met them.

I am hard of hearing I have the experiences of struggle with ORAL methods when I grew up. I talked with some people who have CI have the similiarity problems. So really overall I can not really say there is a nearly perfect CI oral child who can DO very well at social.

And lastly, it does MATTER what you said. We cant learn anything if you didnt say anything.

beetarehoh

 

[beetarehoh]

Allright,
that explains some, and btw, you can meet her on her blog... (See below)

Still, in what way would she not be OK?

Tell me, you could speak OK, but were you able to hear?

Thanks for letting me know about the blog. I just glanced it and boy there is a lot reading to do! I am pretty busy with my own kids. LOL However I will read as much as I can.

You asked: "Still, in what way would she not be OK?"

Boy this will be a long one. My general thoughts: Pay close attention to your child feelings, sometime parents overlook that. If a smart child with oral only CI increase fustration more than normal then there is something to look for. One suggestion give child a choice: first voice a word out, if she couldnt understand after several tries then sign the word. If she respond to the sign then keep the sign as well as voicing it. Later on when the child grows, she will either continue voicing it or sign it. Maybe even both. But that means you will have to be flexible; need to learn the second language fluently and use two language for your child. Later on you will be grateful because its better to have two language than one: English language and ASL language for a deaf child. The child have the choice. If you are doing that method: then thats great I will say no more. When children become independant later in life, they will voice their own opinion to you. Sometime can be very stubborn sometime they are not. So instead you gave child a choice: verbal or sign or both. Child are less likely to be stubborn to you.

My daughter had 45 db hearing loss. My son has 65 db hearing loss. Much different than profoundly loss. Both of them will wear hearing aides. But I dont care about how perfect their speech will be. I care about their language development. And be able to use it to survive in this crazy world. Color people have accent. So my kids will have deaf accent SO what! Most importantly is to have my child learn BOTH language: English and ASL.

Many deaf and hard of hearing people's pet peeves: my parents worry about my speech, my parents want to know how much I can hear, my parents does not focus on my language development, and etc. (cant think of anymore). Parents need to put aside thinking of how the child need to speek(sp) perfectly, because deaf child with CI or hearing aides may not pick up the sounds as same as hearing child.

And dont worry about speech delay, most importantly teach the child literacy skills. Writing English Grammars are the most frustrating for deaf people to learn because they dont hear every day conversation from hearing people.

And last you asked me how well I can hear, remember my db is 75. With my hearing aides around 25 to 35 db I am not qualified for CI. So from what I understood I hear differently than CI user do: I do not know how well they hear. But for me in a hearing group setting: I AM OUT. I am instantly lost. I can not carry a conversation in hearing group. Although I can carry very well with people who have ASL language. I get a lot of distortation with background noise taking over the hearing conversation. I get mixed up with words that rymths the same. VERY confusing for me. This is something you should look for in your daughter.

Hope this helps to make sure your daughter is ok at present time.

Thanks for reading!

beetarehoh

 

[jag]

I am hard of hearing with average of 75 db. I dont need CI but I wear hearing aides. I believe they function just about the same as CI but only sends signals to the brain first instead of the ear first. I rather sign because ASL is a very clear communication. My kids are also hard of hearing: they will wear hearing aides and they will get the best of BOTH world: hearing and deaf. So good luck with your son.

beetarehoh

PS And if my child is profoundly deaf I will not decide to put CI on MY child. Read my other post about a 6 year old CI implant.

I liked you example of peanut brittle sounding like penis brittle. While having my CI testing I knew that what I 'heard' could not have been what was actually said cause they really really would NOT have said what I heard so I didn't repeat it. LOL

Having said that I've had the CI for a year now. My hearing loss was severe/to close to profound, I'd worn HA's for about 35 or so years, I can assure you that what I hear from the CI is MUCH better and clearer then anything I ever got from the HA's. Sure some situations are challenging but to think that people with normal hearing are never in situations that they stuggle to understand is being nieve.

Is it perfect.....well to me it is, it's really amazing when you can hear the sirens from the 9th or 10th floor of a building when before even with HA's you couldn't hear them most of the time on the ground floor. It's amazing how much noise a computer makes. It's amazing to hear all the notes when listening to music, it's amazing to sit in team meetings and understand people rather then stuggling to follow whats going on and missing some...I could go on. You may think the HA's help you....but you would be amazed at what you really are missing.

To me HA's were NOISY. Actually in order to get things loud enough it would cause me pain, so they'd get turned down. No amount of programming was able to take enough noise out to actually be useful to me. (note my audiologist did say I seemed to be one of those people who for some reason just did not get the benefit from HA's that I should have)

Anyway I just had to rebutt the statement that HA's and CI's are/funtion the same.......not in my experience.

Cyborg and loving it.

 

[shel90]

Thanks for letting me know about the blog. I just glanced it and boy there is a lot reading to do! I am pretty busy with my own kids. LOL However I will read as much as I can.

You asked: "Still, in what way would she not be OK?"

Boy this will be a long one. My general thoughts: Pay close attention to your child feelings, sometime parents overlook that. If a smart child with oral only CI increase fustration more than normal then there is something to look for. One suggestion give child a choice: first voice a word out, if she couldnt understand after several tries then sign the word. If she respond to the sign then keep the sign as well as voicing it. Later on when the child grows, she will either continue voicing it or sign it. Maybe even both. But that means you will have to be flexible; need to learn the second language fluently and use two language for your child. Later on you will be grateful because its better to have two language than one: English language and ASL language for a deaf child. The child have the choice. If you are doing that method: then thats great I will say no more. When children become independant later in life, they will voice their own opinion to you. Sometime can be very stubborn sometime they are not. So instead you gave child a choice: verbal or sign or both. Child are less likely to be stubborn to you.

My daughter had 45 db hearing loss. My son has 65 db hearing loss. Much different than profoundly loss. Both of them will wear hearing aides. But I dont care about how perfect their speech will be. I care about their language development. And be able to use it to survive in this crazy world. Color people have accent. So my kids will have deaf accent SO what! Most importantly is to have my child learn BOTH language: English and ASL.

Many deaf and hard of hearing people's pet peeves: my parents worry about my speech, my parents want to know how much I can hear, my parents does not focus on my language development, and etc. (cant think of anymore). Parents need to put aside thinking of how the child need to speek(sp) perfectly, because deaf child with CI or hearing aides may not pick up the sounds as same as hearing child.

And dont worry about speech delay, most importantly teach the child literacy skills. Writing English Grammars are the most frustrating for deaf people to learn because they dont hear every day conversation from hearing people.

And last you asked me how well I can hear, remember my db is 75. With my hearing aides around 25 to 35 db I am not qualified for CI. So from what I understood I hear differently than CI user do: I do not know how well they hear. But for me in a hearing group setting: I AM OUT. I am instantly lost. I can not carry a conversation in hearing group. Although I can carry very well with people who have ASL language. I get a lot of distortation with background noise taking over the hearing conversation. I get mixed up with words that rymths the same. VERY confusing for me. This is something you should look for in your daughter.

Hope this helps to make sure your daughter is ok at present time.

Thanks for reading!

beetarehoh

Great suggestions and I have brought up my experiences and suggestions so much similar to this one only to get them squashed. Hope your message will get thru. Good luck!

 

[beetarehoh]

I liked you example of peanut brittle sounding like penis brittle. While having my CI testing I knew that what I 'heard' could not have been what was actually said cause they really really would NOT have said what I heard so I didn't repeat it. LOL

Having said that I've had the CI for a year now. My hearing loss was severe/to close to profound, I'd worn HA's for about 35 or so years, I can assure you that what I hear from the CI is MUCH better and clearer then anything I ever got from the HA's. Sure some situations are challenging but to think that people with normal hearing are never in situations that they stuggle to understand is being nieve.

Is it perfect.....well to me it is, it's really amazing when you can hear the sirens from the 9th or 10th floor of a building when before even with HA's you couldn't hear them most of the time on the ground floor. It's amazing how much noise a computer makes. It's amazing to hear all the notes when listening to music, it's amazing to sit in team meetings and understand people rather then stuggling to follow whats going on and missing some...I could go on. You may think the HA's help you....but you would be amazed at what you really are missing.

To me HA's were NOISY. Actually in order to get things loud enough it would cause me pain, so they'd get turned down. No amount of programming was able to take enough noise out to actually be useful to me. (note my audiologist did say I seemed to be one of those people who for some reason just did not get the benefit from HA's that I should have)

Anyway I just had to rebutt the statement that HA's and CI's are/funtion the same.......not in my experience.

Cyborg and loving it.

Well said! I am wondering how many CI user is getting this same experience? I sure hope most of them do!

Now back to Drew's Dad point: He said making decision for a child to have implant is the best solution to learn speech and English language skill at earlier stage. Do you agree?

Most parents from this post think that deaf children will not learn speech well if they are not implanted right after birth. What you think of that?

It seems that you made your own decision of getting the implants. And all went WELL. Did your speech improve? How long did the therapy take? Did you wish your parents decide to put implants for you when you where a child? Although technology may be different 20 years ago so its really hard to say. Maybe the technology is REALLY improving.

Thanks.

beetarehoh

 

[jag]

Well said! I am wondering how many CI user is getting this same experience? I sure hope most of them do!

Now back to Drew's Dad point: He said making decision for a child to have implant is the best solution to learn speech and English language skill at earlier stage. Do you agree?

Most parents from this post think that deaf children will not learn speech well if they are not implanted right after birth. What you think of that?

It seems that you made your own decision of getting the implants. And all went WELL. Did your speech improve? How long did the therapy take? Did you wish your parents decide to put implants for you when you where a child? Although technology may be different 20 years ago so its really hard to say. Maybe the technology is REALLY improving.

Thanks.

beetarehoh

actually I agree with Drew's dad. Speech is much easier to learn at an earlier age so the sooner a child gets a CI the better. It's one reason my daughter with down syndrome began EI just after birth, that included seeing the schools ST. In her case it wasn't very successful but she does understand speech to some extent and she is also attending the school for the deaf in this state. I shoudl add that she only has a mild hearing loss and does not have a CI.

I have probably had the hearing problem from an early age, I had/have a reverse slope which has gotton worse over time. I did not get any amplyfication until I was like 13. I speak and always have normally and have never had speech theraphy. I have never lived or participated in a deaf community.

While many may like to go through life not knowing what their friends and co workers are talking about, having not understood things being said, and having had to stand around like a lump to many times, I'd go with implanting a child of mine who qualified at an early age since that is the most oppertun time to learn spoken language....and the world DOES revolve around spoken language.

Now will there be different degrees of success? Yes and until it's tried a person can not know how far they can go. I actually did not find growing up with a mild hearing loss to be a hugh problem it's as the loss progressed that the frustrations sets in. HA's suck if you ask me, but then I got my first one back in the early 70's and even if the newer ones are better they still weren't very good for me, and with the hearing loss I had I 'should' have had very good results with them. If a CI brings a severe/profoundly deaf child's hearing up into the mild range that child has a good chance to learn to speak clearly and to understand much of what is going on around them. I actually wouldn't worry to much about a 'deaf' accent. I've had the CI for only a year, I would actually feel comforable taking college courses for the first time in my life. (yes I know I could get some type of accomodations...but it's truely a pain in the rear end, I guess I'm much to independant to rely on someone else for notes and such)

Having participated in CI groups, the technology of the Nucleus Freedome is an improvment over their last model, the people upgrading are amazed at what the processor picks up and can do compared to the one they ar trading in. Does that mean that their older models weren't any good? No it just means that technology improves and offers more options which is good. If we wait til the child can 'choose', we would also wait til learing to understand speech and speak if harder.

I had an audiologist tell me that yes I 'could wait' til technology improved so it was up to me to decide if I wanted to continue as I was or take a chance that things would improve. I chose take a chance because I found the status quo to be a hugh frustrating pain in the butt, and I don't regret it at all.

I was never referred to a implant facility by an audiologist I was the one who made an appointment to be evaluated, and i was the one who made the decision to ask for an exemption from my insurance company to be implanted when I did NOT quite meet the criteria for implantation....and I Don't regret the decision at all. That is how much better a CI is then a HA to me.

 

[Cloggy]

......................
I am not saying I will NOT believe at all. I believe AT this time. I have seen low success rate on ORAL CI user. That is my perspective. For example: One girl I knew for 6 years has an implant just after birth. She is now 21 years old and her life is a mess. She is relying on SSI income. She got fired two times. Although she grew up in wonderful family, I met them.
..............

I know some hearing people like that......
Are you sure it is about CI, or is it about the person...

Thanks for the clarification about your "state" of hearing..

And, to conclude, based on your post, my daughter is doing great!

 

[jillio]

Well said. You "believe".
I hope you will get a chance to meet a child like I met. 14 years old, and she has 1 CI. She was in a classroom and the teacher never realised she was deaf. She followed everything and answered without indicating that she was deaf.

Again, I hope you might meet someone like that, but then again, they are hard to spot. After all, they speak without problems... How would you be able to tell??

The CI successes that are paraded before the public are no different than the oral successes of a century ago. They are not respresentative of the entire deaf/Deaf community, and have received intensive training. One of the problems of judging all deaf children by these unusual successes is that we individuate the condition of deafness. Individuation does harm not just to the deaf community but to those hearing parents of deaf children who are led to believe that this is the norm for all deaf children who receive a CI. And, unfortunately, the intensive training that is done on the children is often done at the sacrifice of true education.

 

[jillio]

I know some hearing people like that......
Are you sure it is about CI, or is it about the person...

Thanks for the clarification about your "state" of hearing..

And, to conclude, based on your post, my daughter is doing great!

Another case of individuation.

 

[Cloggy]

The CI successes that are paraded before the public are no different than the oral successes of a century ago. They are not respresentative of the entire deaf/Deaf community, and have received intensive training. One of the problems of judging all deaf children by these unusual successes is that we individuate the condition of deafness. Individuation does harm not just to the deaf community but to those hearing parents of deaf children who are led to believe that this is the norm for all deaf children who receive a CI. And, unfortunately, the intensive training that is done on the children is often done at the sacrifice of true education.

The ASL successes that are paraded before the public are no different than the oral successes of a century ago. They are not respresentative of the entire deaf/Deaf community, and have received intensive training. One of the problems of judging all deaf children by these unusual successes is that we individuate the condition of deafness. Individuation does harm not just to the deaf community but to those hearing parents of deaf children who are led to believe that this is the norm for all deaf children who use ASL. And, unfortunately, the intensive focus on ASL is often done at the sacrifice of true education.


...... Now it makes sense

 

[Cloggy]

Another case of individuation.

individuation: discriminating the individual from the generic group or
species [syn: individualization, individualisation]

HOW ?

My daughter is a full "member" of our circle of family and friends, and creates her own circle of friends.
She fully integrated in the generic group.. There's no discrimination.

Now, had she only known sign language, THEN you might have been right... just might...

My daughters deafness doesn NOT define her !!

She's much, much more than deaf !

 

[jillio]

The ASL successes that are paraded before the public are no different than the oral successes of a century ago. They are not respresentative of the entire deaf/Deaf community, and have received intensive training. One of the problems of judging all deaf children by these unusual successes is that we individuate the condition of deafness. Individuation does harm not just to the deaf community but to those hearing parents of deaf children who are led to believe that this is the norm for all deaf children who use ASL. And, unfortunately, the intensive focus on ASL is often done at the sacrifice of true education.


...... Now it makes sense

Sorry, but you cannot simply sustitute words at random and come up with a cohesive argument. And there is empirical research in numerous fields that suppoert the successful education of sign based children--there is none to do the same for oral education. Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates suppoert the use of ASL, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of oral successes. Try looking at things from a broader viewpoint rather than simply your own audist viewpoint. You exemplify the very concept of sacrificing knowledge for the sake of speech.

 

[Cloggy]

Sorry, but you cannot simply sustitute words at random and come up with a cohesive argument.

Cohesive argument..... sorry, missed that part...

And there is empirical research in numerous fields that suppoert the successful education of sign based children--there is none to do the same for oral education. Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates suppoert the use of ASL, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of oral successes. Try looking at things from a broader viewpoint rather than simply your own audist viewpoint. You exemplify the very concept of sacrificing knowledge for the sake of speech.

... audist... that word rings a bell... !!
Audist viewpoint.... no, wrong. Not for the sake of speech. You really don't get it....
I like sign language. I think it's a beautiful language, very poetic, handy (I use it every day) It's wonderful.

I also see that my deaf daughter (sign is her first language) hardly has any use for it.

As for your "Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates suppoert the use of ASL, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of oral successes."..... is probably the research that you red. And those two papers have been written quite a while ago.

Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates support the use of speech, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of ASL successes.".....

BTW, statistics prove you wrong...

 

[jillio]

Cohesive argument..... sorry, missed that part...
... audist... that word rings a bell... !!
Audist viewpoint.... no, wrong. Not for the sake of speech. You really don't get it....
I like sign language. I think it's a beautiful language, very poetic, handy (I use it every day) It's wonderful.

I also see that my deaf daughter (sign is her first language) hardly has any use for it.

As for your "Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates suppoert the use of ASL, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of oral successes."..... is probably the research that you red. And those two papers have been written quite a while ago.

Infact, all research and the hisory of the decline in literacy rates support the use of speech, and illustrate the misconceptions and fallacy of ASL successes.".....

BTW, statistics prove you wrong...

Let's see the statistics. And the research is available for all to read, but some people get so caught up in their ethnocentric ideas that speech is always preferable to sign, and to be integrated, the deaf must become more like the hearing, and all the other absurd arguments that audists spout that they fail to become informed on both sides of the issue. Quite obviously, you have no concern for learning the truth of the situation, but are merely content to remain in you little box because its most comfortable for you. As for no use for sign, come back and talk to us when Lotte is 18.