"Letting the Child Decide"

[beetarehoh]

I'm in no way/shape/form saying you should defray teaching English until grade school - I was simply saying that mastery of a language is not dependent on it being a visual/signed language only.

If mastery of ASL facilitates understanding of a second language, why are so many people who learn ASL first and then go on to deaf institutions where ASL is spoken, and English is taught as their second language doing so poorly in English?


And this is where a CI can HELP a child who is in the beginning stages of acquiring language by using both ASL/sign AND English simultaneously (of course in this situation, signed English would be best.)

There are many reason why ASL deaf people do poorly in English:

1. Lack of education in most of ASL environment schools in the nation.
2. State school enroll delayed developed kids with and without CI at later age: most people in my area refer state school as "dumping ground" (Because those rural and some city Mainstream schools does not have reasonable accommodation in the program for deaf kids).
3. State school enroll kids with almost no language at elementary ages.
4. Lack of teaching from parents
5. Neglect by parents
6. Not hear daily conversation from hearing people out in the world.(including some CI users)
7. No form of curriculum to teach elementary of how to transfer from ASL to English writing and reading. (Right now there is a program just started call Fairview, they teach kids from ASL to English writing and reading, my daughter and son will be in that program)
Can go on on and on.

 

[Cloggy]

Look under Ethical Issue in this site:

Cochlear implant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Parents with CI children maybe will have better understanding of why some deaf people argues about CI.

Cloggy, your daughter IS deaf. If she is more than deaf, then you wouldnt be here posting your threads. She is part of the deaf culture forever.

beetarehoh

You're right about my daughter being deaf. (how on earth did you come to that conclusion... congratulations.. Me telling she's deaf gave it away I guess!)

How could she be more than deaf?

Why wouldn't I post here if she was more than deaf (whatever that is)

Being deaf does not make you part of deaf culture. (Deaf culture) Ask around here. There are plenty deaf people not part of deaf culture.

Jillio just about said everything that is true about deaf people with all technologies......

Funny... now get serious

 

[jillio]

Also check this out:
In the intrduction of this website,
Cochlear implant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The introduction of cochlear implants has seen the renewal of a century-old debate about models of deafness that often has the hearing parents of deaf children on one side and the deaf community on the other. University of Pittsburgh science affiliation, led by prominent bio-molecular audiologist Michael Kraemer, has crafted the basic audiological structure for the cohesion to operate properly. On the one hand, modern medical ethics law dictates that the decision of whether to get a cochlear implant is up to the patient or the legal guardian of the patient. Therefore, political debate about whether deafness is a disability or not is irrelevant to the current medical profession. On the other hand, whether society treats deafness as a disability has direct bearing on government policy. Many governments in the world have disability legislation which includes people who are deaf. Some developed countries provide cochlear implantation as a part of state healthcare.[citation needed] The debate is also economic. Many state-funded medical interventions for a disability (such as free genetic screening for Down Syndrome) are justified on the ground that, in the long run, they will prove cheaper for the state. Sweden is the most progressive. It is the only country that has legislation that when a deaf child is born to a hearing parent, they are, by law, consulted by the deaf community as well as the medical community so they can make an informed decision

I wish American laws has the same as Swedish law!!! In fact thats my nationality!!! HOORAAH! lol.

beetarehoh

Thanks for the compliment in the previous post. And yes, Sweden does have it right. I think I posted somewhere else that as soon as a child is diagnosed as deaf, the hearing parents are given professional sign language instruction so that the child will immediately begin to be exposed to visual language. And the education for deaf children is bi-bi, as well. The U.S. would do well to look at the success of their programs.

 

[jillio]

You're right about my daughter being deaf. (how on earth did you come to that conclusion... congratulations.. Me telling she's deaf gave it away I guess!)

How could she be more than deaf?

Why wouldn't I post here if she was more than deaf (whatever that is)

Being deaf does not make you part of deaf culture. (Deaf culture) Ask around here. There are plenty deaf people not part of deaf culture.

Funny... now get serious

What, no statistics or real experience to back yourself up? Just resort to sarcasm? Guess that illustrates the lack of validity in your posts.

 

[Cloggy]

What, no statistics or real experience to back yourself up? Just resort to sarcasm? Guess that illustrates the lack of validity in your posts.

Oh sorry,
With all the lack of evidence from your side, I thought there was no need for it...

OK, what do you want to be backed up??

 

[jillio]

Oh sorry,
With all the lack of evidence from your side, I thought there was no need for it...

OK, what do you want to be backed up??

That what I said about new technology and deaf people is not true. That's the claim that you quoted and made the sarcastic remark about. And stating that I do not have evidence for my side merely idicates how truly uninformed you are. If my claims are not true, come up with the research--true scientific research with cited sources, please, that refutes such. No anecdote or personal experience. I will then supply same.

 

[beetarehoh]

You're right about my daughter being deaf. (how on earth did you come to that conclusion... congratulations.. Me telling she's deaf gave it away I guess!)

My conclusion: I am deaf/hoh. Your conclusion? Sarcasm and ignorance.

How could she be more than deaf?

Definition of more than deaf: Perfect hearing.

Why wouldn't I post here if she was more than deaf (whatever that is)

Because you found out your daughter is deaf when she was born. So you got involve with learning about sign language, CI and AD site. ALSO you put up a blog site about your daughter's implants. If your daughter is hearing, you wouldnt be here posting threads or putting up site about your daughter's implants.

Being deaf does not make you part of deaf culture. (Deaf culture) Ask around here. There are plenty deaf people not part of deaf culture.

Mm ok few things:
Did those deaf people get extra treatment and therapy for speech more than normal hearing children? Yes: means Deaf culture.

Did those deaf people recieve CI? Yes: Deaf Culture.

Did you learn sign Language? Yes: From who? Someone in Deaf Culture.

Where did sign language come from? Deaf Culture.

Hearing Parents part of deaf culture? No because they are not deaf/hoh. They are in Hearing Culture. Although they are WELCOME to join Deaf Culture to learn about their barriers and beautiful sign language, and any technology to help reduce communication barriers between hearing and deaf.

Are all CI implanted in deaf people part of Deaf culture? Yes: Regardless how much of exposure from hearing and/or deaf people they are part of Deaf culture.

Does your daughter change battery in her CI? Yes: Deaf Culture

Funny... now get serious

I AM serious.

And colored people? Are they part of white culture? NO. However some of them socialize with white people. They are part of colored culture regardless which side they are. I respect their culture by not pouncing their values. Am I ignorance about their culture: YES! Because I ll never know exactly what kind of their experiences are.

 

[Cloggy]

My conclusion: I am deaf/hoh. Your conclusion? Sarcasm and ignorance.

Because you wrote "Your daughter IS deaf." with capitals. The only way to interpret that is that you assume I wouldn't know. Good time to get sarcastic and defensive in my opinion.

Definition of more than deaf: Perfect hearing.

That is the opposite. Not more!!
More than deaf would not be hearing. Let alone "perfect hearing"

Because you found out your daughter is deaf when she was born. So you got involve with learning about sign language, CI and AD site. ALSO you put up a blog site about your daughter's implants. If your daughter is hearing, you wouldnt be here posting threads or putting up site about your daughter's implants.

Very true. I agree with you there. I knew virtually nothing about deafness. Never heared about CI. About Deaf culture.

Mm ok few things:
Did those deaf people get extra treatment and therapy for speech more than normal hearing children? Yes: means Deaf culture.

No, speech therapy is not a requirement for deaf culture. In fact, Deaf culture looks down (generally speaking) on members of Deaf community trying to speak.

Did those deaf people recieve CI? Yes: Deaf Culture.

Not sure what you mean, because when you look for LillysDad first post in AllDeaf, you'll see that Deaf culture reacts very negative to CI. Members considering CI are not appreciated. Alfter all, it would mean that they are not happy with being deaf. That they have not accepted deafness. And then... you're not a member of Deaf culture.

Did you learn sign Language? Yes: From who? Someone in Deaf Culture.

Point being?

Where did sign language come from? Deaf Culture.

Point being?

Hearing Parents part of deaf culture? No because they are not deaf/hoh.

Of course they can be part of Deaf culture... as long as they speak fluent ASL and don't even consider CI.

They are in Hearing Culture. Although they are WELCOME to join Deaf Culture to learn about their barriers and beautiful sign language, and any technology to help reduce communication barriers between hearing and deaf.

... excepth CI...

Are all CI implanted in deaf people part of Deaf culture? Yes: Regardless how much of exposure from hearing and/or deaf people they are part of Deaf culture.

No, just ask around here...

Does your daughter change battery in her CI? Yes: Deaf Culture

You really should do some homework.... You have no idea what Deaf Culture is...

I AM serious.

Sure

And colored people? Are they part of white culture? NO. However some of them socialize with white people. They are part of colored culture regardless which side they are. I respect their culture by not pouncing their values. Am I ignorance about their culture: YES! Because I ll never know exactly what kind of their experiences are.

Ah, the black-white deaf-hearing argument....

Well, in that case. My daugther can hear... Guess she'll never be part of Deaf culture!!

 

[beetarehoh]

Because you wrote "Your daughter IS deaf." with capitals. The only way to interpret that is that you assume I wouldn't know. Good time to get sarcastic and defensive in my opinion.

Right because when you said "more than deaf" to me sounds like you are trying to cover the identity. And I make sure that I EMPATHIZE the deafness not because I assume you wouldnt know. So Yes I understand your sarcasizm and defensive.

For the rest of your life you will have to say:
She is deaf but.........
She is deaf but...........
She is deaf but........

That is the opposite. Not more!! More than deaf would not be hearing. Let alone "perfect hearing"

Ok? Can you explain what does more than deaf means? Oh excuse me I already know what you mean, being ignorance.

Very true. I agree with you there. I knew virtually nothing about deafness. Never heared about CI. About Deaf culture.

Good

No, speech therapy is not a requirement for deaf culture. In fact, Deaf culture looks down (generally speaking) on members of Deaf community trying to speak.

You are right Speech is not requirement for deaf culture but your daughter is immediatly in deaf culture once you found she is deaf period. Hearing community and some CI users community look down on Deaf community using ASL.

Not sure what you mean, because when you look for LillysDad first post in AllDeaf, you'll see that Deaf culture reacts very negative to CI. Members considering CI are not appreciated. Alfter all, it would mean that they are not happy with being deaf. That they have not accepted deafness. And then... you're not a member of Deaf culture.

Its because some deaf people are AFRAID to CI due to: hearing not accepting deaf identity, surgery can be avoidable and use ASL as acceptance language, surgery can cause complication. CI users, they are just covering their identity just like you are trying to do for your daughter. In my perspective and belief once they are born deaf/hoh then immediatly they are member of deaf community.

Deaf people who believes themselves as deaf are demanding themselves to be member of Deaf culture as well as any other deaf/hoh births and people. So they argue with hearing people who disagrees.

I am a member of Deaf culture but does not mean I reject CI. If anybody wants to have CI then go right ahead. Its their BODY not mine.

Also there are some deaf people who I disagree of how they treat hearing people. So goes both way.

Point being?

Identity

Point being?

Again Identity

Of course they can be part of Deaf culture... as long as they speak fluent ASL and don't even consider CI. ... excepth CI...

Who said anything about fluent ASL from Deaf culture? I just said ASL. I am not fluent in ASL, I sign PSE but still I am member of deaf culture because I use their language to help me understand about MY identity.

No, just ask around here...You really should do some homework.... You have no idea what Deaf Culture is...

Umm.......looking in the dictionary on "Culture" and "Deaf Culture" right now. Ok so lots to debate about that.

Sure

Oh, sarcasizm again.

Ah, the black-white deaf-hearing argument....

Yes you mean I cant compare? Its impossible not to compare.

Well, in that case. My daugther can hear... Guess she'll never be part of Deaf culture!!

I see: You do look down on Deaf culture. That isnt very nice. You are trying to cover her identity. Good job mom and dad. I sure hope life does go really well for her. Because mine wasnt, same for most people I know. So one day if your daughter is having a difficult time, never come to Deaf culture, as per you said. No sign language and no understanding.

I sure feel bad for Lotte already. Case is closed.

 

[rick48]

What, no statistics or real experience to back yourself up? Just resort to sarcasm? Guess that illustrates the lack of validity in your posts.

Where are yours? Cloggy has real life experience raising a ci child. You do not. Thus, despite all your unsubstantiated opinions and protestations that you are always right, nothing you say can match his experience raising a ci child!

BTW, in addition to myself, you should be the last person to use sarcasm as an indicator of lack of validity to one's opinions.

It did not take you long to break your promise to R2D2!

 

[Boult]

beetarehoh,

Cloggy and his family are from Norway, (they moved there from Netherlands for job reason) so they are not American so it is not ASL but sign language of in their native language. *shrug*

 

[beetarehoh]

beetarehoh,

Cloggy and his family are from Norway, (they moved there from Netherlands for job reason) so they are not American so it is not ASL but sign language of in their native language. *shrug*

Yeah, I already knew that. We have been talking about ASL lately, no other sign language. In meantime, I was wondering what is their language like. Thanks

 

[Cloggy]

Right because when you said "more than deaf" to me sounds like you are trying to cover the identity. And I make sure that I EMPATHIZE the deafness not because I assume you wouldnt know. So Yes I understand your sarcasizm and defensive.

AH, so that's where that comes from...
Our daughter is deaf, but that doesn't define her. She's more than that. This in the sense of a wonderful girl, smart, stubborn, social, happy to play outside, friendly to strangers, trying to write, chatting away. Her deafness does not define her..

For the rest of your life you will have to say:
She is deaf but.........
She is deaf but...........
She is deaf but........

NO, I can say... she's ...... and oh, almost forgot, she's deaf....[/quote]

Ok? Can you explain what does more than deaf means? Oh excuse me I already know what you mean, being ignorance.

See above. And I see it's not ignorence. It's too much focus on deafness.[/quote]

.........
Its because some deaf people are AFRAID to CI due to: hearing not accepting deaf identity, surgery can be avoidable and use ASL as acceptance language, surgery can cause complication. CI users, they are just covering their identity just like you are trying to do for your daughter. In my perspective and belief once they are born deaf/hoh then immediatly they are member of deaf community.

Deaf people who believes themselves as deaf are demanding themselves to be member of Deaf culture as well as any other deaf/hoh births and people. So they argue with hearing people who disagrees.

I am a member of Deaf culture but does not mean I reject CI. If anybody wants to have CI then go right ahead. Its their BODY not mine.

Also there are some deaf people who I disagree of how they treat hearing people. So goes both way.

Choosing for a CI does not mean one rejects deafness, or is afraid of it. That is a misconception. For some it might be true, but the argument "you choose for CI SO you are not accepting your deafness" is rediculous. Ask some other members on this board...

Who said anything about fluent ASL from Deaf culture? I just said ASL. I am not fluent in ASL, I sign PSE but still I am member of deaf culture because I use their language to help me understand about MY identity.

True.

................Yes you mean I cant compare? Its impossible not to compare.

Sure you can..

I see: You do look down on Deaf culture. That isnt very nice. You are trying to cover her identity. Good job mom and dad. I sure hope life does go really well for her. Because mine wasnt, same for most people I know. So one day if your daughter is having a difficult time, never come to Deaf culture, as per you said. No sign language and no understanding.

I sure feel bad for Lotte already. Case is closed.

And there you go again with an assumotion that is totally wrong.
I'm sorry your life wasn't good, but you don't have to project that on us. I guess CI was not available, so you cannot compare Lotte's world with yours.

Is there some resentment coming through here.... Like "I wish I could have had CI??"

 

[LTHFAdvocate]

Sweden has it right in multiple dimensions. If the parents decide they want a CI, at Karolinska, the child automatically gets a simultaneous bilateral (no fighting with insurance companies) and they do them as young as seven months of age.

Quoting from the October 2006 issue of the Euro-CIU newsletter located at

http://eurociu.implantecoclear.org/news/euronews5.doc?PHPSESSID=4c7ea7fbfed2725879ab850c3048fd02

"Sweden is one of the countries in the world with the highest number of CI per 100000 persons. Today all audiological clinics have information about CIs and the average Swede has seen persons in the street or on TV with a cochlear implant. You are not stopped in the passport control and examined as if you came from a outer planet. Today most people that are diagnosed and found to be suitable candidates will have at least one CI. There is no real queue for operation even if money is not always directly available. Most people that get a CI today are not been totally deaf and a high percentage of implantees have a CI in one ear and a conventional hearing aid on the other. With new implantees it is more usual that they can use telephone than that they can not. Deaf people have to a largely accepted a CIs."

Sheri

Thanks for the compliment in the previous post. And yes, Sweden does have it right. I think I posted somewhere else that as soon as a child is diagnosed as deaf, the hearing parents are given professional sign language instruction so that the child will immediately begin to be exposed to visual language. And the education for deaf children is bi-bi, as well. The U.S. would do well to look at the success of their programs.

 

[neecy]

Wow I never knew changing the batteries in a HA or CI automatically qualified you as a member of deaf culture! I'll have to notify all my friends at the local vetrans legion who use hearing aids that they are now bonafide Deaf Culturists!!

 

[deafdyke]

rick48, Cloggy is in the process of raising a dhh kid! She's doing really well, BUT there's no telling what lies ahead. Lotte may be doing really well, NOW, but when she gets older things might change.

In fact, Deaf culture looks down (generally speaking) on members of Deaf community trying to speak.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....Cloggy, that's like saying that all Christians look down on all non Christians as automaticly going to hell. There are SOME seperatists, yes.......but generally Deaf people view speech as more of a vital survival skill. People aren't looked down on if they have OK speech.

Not sure what you mean, because when you look for LillysDad first post in AllDeaf, you'll see that Deaf culture reacts very negative to CI. Members considering CI are not appreciated. Alfter all, it would mean that they are not happy with being deaf. That they have not accepted deafness. And then... you're not a member of Deaf culture.

Cloggy, it's clear that you're viewing Deaf culture as the product of extreme radical Deaf seperatist types. Yes, its not universally accepted yet........but attitudes have changed so drasticly its not even funny. If Deafness was about an audiogram, you wouldn't have audiologically hoh people involved in it..........as a matter of fact, you wouldn't have HEARING people involved in it. There are some hearing "Deafies" who use Sign as their primary language due to things like cerebal palsy, apraxia, tracheostomies etc (and no, I'm not just counting the profoundly MR kids who use one or two signs. )

 

[Cloggy]

rick48, Cloggy is in the process of raising a dhh kid! She's doing really well, BUT there's no telling what lies ahead. Lotte may be doing really well, NOW, but when she gets older things might change.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....Cloggy, that's like saying that all Christians look down on all non Christians as automaticly going to hell. There are SOME seperatists, yes.......but generally Deaf people view speech as more of a vital survival skill. People aren't looked down on if they have OK speech.



Cloggy, it's clear that you're viewing Deaf culture as the product of extreme radical Deaf seperatist types. Yes, its not universally accepted yet........but attitudes have changed so drasticly its not even funny. If Deafness was about an audiogram, you wouldn't have audiologically hoh people involved in it..........as a matter of fact, you wouldn't have HEARING people involved in it. There are some hearing "Deafies" who use Sign as their primary language due to things like cerebal palsy, apraxia, tracheostomies etc (and no, I'm not just counting the profoundly MR kids who use one or two signs. )

You're right, I'm exaggerating... I know...

then again..... This is how some people (and children) get treated when they tried to make contact...
(http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/27349-deaf-nation-new-comer.html#post509934)

 

[Raykat]

Wow I never knew changing the batteries in a HA or CI automatically qualified you as a member of deaf culture! I'll have to notify all my friends at the local vetrans legion who use hearing aids that they are now bonafide Deaf Culturists!!

Good one neecy

 

[Cheri]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....Cloggy, that's like saying that all Christians look down on all non Christians as automaticly going to hell.

I'm a Christian and I sure do not look down on non-believers, Only trying to help them move in the right direction big differences on your answer there. If you're not a Christian then I suggest you not to say anything more than what you supposedly really know.

just my two cents. *drop two cents in a jar*

Apology for the :topic: I had to answer deafdyke's comment there.

 

[Raykat]

Right because when you said "more than deaf" to me sounds like you are trying to cover the identity. And I make sure that I EMPATHIZE the deafness not because I assume you wouldnt know. So Yes I understand your sarcasizm and defensive.

For the rest of your life you will have to say:
She is deaf but.........
She is deaf but...........
She is deaf but........


Ok? Can you explain what does more than deaf means? Oh excuse me I already know what you mean, being ignorance.



Good



You are right Speech is not requirement for deaf culture but your daughter is immediatly in deaf culture once you found she is deaf period. Hearing community and some CI users community look down on Deaf community using ASL.



Its because some deaf people are AFRAID to CI due to: hearing not accepting deaf identity, surgery can be avoidable and use ASL as acceptance language, surgery can cause complication. CI users, they are just covering their identity just like you are trying to do for your daughter. In my perspective and belief once they are born deaf/hoh then immediatly they are member of deaf community.

Deaf people who believes themselves as deaf are demanding themselves to be member of Deaf culture as well as any other deaf/hoh births and people. So they argue with hearing people who disagrees.

I am a member of Deaf culture but does not mean I reject CI. If anybody wants to have CI then go right ahead. Its their BODY not mine.

Also there are some deaf people who I disagree of how they treat hearing people. So goes both way.



Identity



Again Identity



Who said anything about fluent ASL from Deaf culture? I just said ASL. I am not fluent in ASL, I sign PSE but still I am member of deaf culture because I use their language to help me understand about MY identity.



Umm.......looking in the dictionary on "Culture" and "Deaf Culture" right now. Ok so lots to debate about that.



Oh, sarcasizm again.



Yes you mean I cant compare? Its impossible not to compare.



I see: You do look down on Deaf culture. That isnt very nice. You are trying to cover her identity. Good job mom and dad. I sure hope life does go really well for her. Because mine wasnt, same for most people I know. So one day if your daughter is having a difficult time, never come to Deaf culture, as per you said. No sign language and no understanding.

I sure feel bad for Lotte already. Case is closed.

Whats this identity business?????..........being deaf does not identify you.....your personality, upbringing,, background is what identifies you, being deaf simply adds another dimension.

I feel really happy for Lotte, have just read her blog and know for sure that she will grow up an extremely happy, loved and well educated young lady.