It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

You are a perfect example of what I have written about in the above 2 posts.:) And there are many, many more...not just on this board but walking around IRL, that are perfect examples, as well. People keep saying that 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents. That means that 90% of the people in the deaf community are from families of hearing origin, yet they all come together in the larger deaf community. Those deaf children of hearing parents grow up to become deaf adults of hearing parents. And they are finding the deaf community, and becoming a part of it. Why is it so necessary for them to wait until they are adults? Why is it that we cannot give them that when they are children, and, as hearing parents, share it with them?

There is a lot perceptions here. I think people have to realize that they cannot get the full picture because there's just so many factors. A lot of people here say "I meet a LOT of people who ________". It could be "do well with TC environment", "got severely delayed from oral only", "make negative comments about CI and called me a bad parent." and so on. But all of the above really depends on the environment you are in. Example, Jillio implied (unless there's a statistic that I don't know about) in the above post that she meets a lot of deaf adults who join the deaf community after being raised oral only, giving the impression that MOST deaf adults who were raised orally eventually join the deaf community. But the problem is that why would she meet those who didn't feel the need to join the deaf community, or at least in large numbers? (since those type of deaf adults do not really "get together") So how do we really know that what we experience "Oh I meet a lot of people who ___" really is a majority anyway?

Can I just say that I'm enjoying this post and I'm glad people are not at the cutthroat point (yet...). I went away for the weekend of scuba diving and as I came back I was thinking "I wonder if that thread is locked yet...?" :)
 
There is a lot perceptions here. I think people have to realize that they cannot get the full picture because there's just so many factors. A lot of people here say "I meet a LOT of people who ________". It could be "do well with TC environment", "got severely delayed from oral only", "make negative comments about CI and called me a bad parent." and so on. But all of the above really depends on the environment you are in. Example, Jillio implied (unless there's a statistic that I don't know about) in the above post that she meets a lot of deaf adults who join the deaf community after being raised oral only, giving the impression that MOST deaf adults who were raised orally eventually join the deaf community. But the problem is that why would she meet those who didn't feel the need to join the deaf community, or at least in large numbers? (since those type of deaf adults do not really "get together") So how do we really know that what we experience "Oh I meet a lot of people who ___" really is a majority anyway?

Can I just say that I'm enjoying this post and I'm glad people are not at the cutthroat point (yet...). I went away for the weekend of scuba diving and as I came back I was thinking "I wonder if that thread is locked yet...?" :)



I have met a lot of deaf people who arent part of the Deaf community. The reason I dont hang out with them is cuz they kept telling me I dont need ASL because I talk so well or that I should get a CI. One of them even asked me why do I hang out with "these" Deaf people. Of course, it turned me off and as a result, I rejected them right there because I dont need people telling me how I should live my life. Yea, I do the same to culturally Deaf people who question me about having a hearing husband or about using my voice.

I havent met a deaf person who has respected ASL or the Deaf community but I have met Deaf people who respected my oral upbringing and my speech skills so...:hmm:
 
I have met a lot of deaf people who arent part of the Deaf community. The reason I dont hang out with them is cuz they kept telling me I dont need ASL because I talk so well or that I should get a CI. One of them even asked me why do I hang out with "these" Deaf people. Of course, it turned me off and as a result, I rejected them right there because I dont need people telling me how I should live my life. Yea, I do the same to culturally Deaf people who question me about having a hearing husband or about using my voice.

I havent met a deaf person who has respected ASL or the Deaf community but I have met Deaf people who respected my oral upbringing and my speech skills so...:hmm:

What is the difference of a hearing parent rejecting the deaf community because of the negative comments they get and your bold statement above? My guess is that you rejected individuals while the hearing parent rejects the community as a whole? Should we ignore those who tell us how to live?

I want to add that I also had people telling me numerous times that I should get the CI, both deaf and hearing. I was so annoyed; that was one of the minor reasons I didn't get it as a teenage because I didn't want to "give in". I just came up with an automated response "I just don't feel that it's right for me right now." and changed the subject. However, I want to add that I know they are well meaning. A family member was severely delayed due to oral only, and he got the CI, went to a school for the deaf, and made amazing progress in all aspects of development. So naturally, my family equated CI = amazing success. They figured I would benefit a lot from it by hearing a lot more, being able to talk on the phone, etc., and I wouldn't even need the speech therapy after. So even though people annoyed the hell out of me telling me that I should have the CI, they meant well. Same way as Deaf people tell hearing parents "Please teach your child ASL".

I think we just have to remember that people, for the most part, mean well.
 
What is the difference of a hearing parent rejecting the deaf community because of the negative comments they get and your bold statement above? My guess is that you rejected individuals while the hearing parent rejects the community as a whole? Should we ignore those who tell us how to live?

I want to add that I also had people telling me numerous times that I should get the CI, both deaf and hearing. I was so annoyed; that was one of the minor reasons I didn't get it as a teenage because I didn't want to "give in". I just came up with an automated response "I just don't feel that it's right for me right now." and changed the subject. However, I want to add that I know they are well meaning. A family member was severely delayed due to oral only, and he got the CI, went to a school for the deaf, and made amazing progress in all aspects of development. So naturally, my family equated CI = amazing success. They figured I would benefit a lot from it by hearing a lot more, being able to talk on the phone, etc., and I wouldn't even need the speech therapy after. So even though people annoyed the hell out of me telling me that I should have the CI, they meant well. Same way as Deaf people tell hearing parents "Please teach your child ASL".

I think we just have to remember that people, for the most part, mean well.

The difference is that these children's language and socio_emotional development are at stake while as an adult, mine isn't.

I have always stated that I can't dictate what goes on in the home in regards to languasge use and etc. When I talk about deaf children being exposed to both, it is in the educational setting.

As for negative comments, the parents have the right to reject those individuals just like I did but to reject a whole community? That's generalizing. That would be like me rejecting all hearing people cuz of some hearing people treating me like a 2nd class citizen. I still get treated like that by numerous of hearing people to this day but I ignore them and move on to befriend those hearing who respect my needs.

When we talk about children...we r talking about language development and socio-emotional growth and in my belief I think all deaf children should be exposed to both so THEY can make the decision on which path to take when they get older.

Like, iam exposing my half-Mexican daughter to the Mexican culture even though I have no Mexican background. that way she can learn and understand abou the Mexican culture and values so she can decide whether to adopt them or not when she gets older.

I think parents need to stop worrying about what others think and just expose their kids to both. In both world, there ARE nice people and they will encounter nice people. The world is not always going to be kind and forgiving at all times. That's my two cents.
 
Er, I do not know if i am going to making any sense...it's difficult to put to words...sorry in advance if i am not clear but here goes...

I feel compelled to point out the word 'accept' is not completely binary in nature, as people are creatures of reasons - their 'reason' to accept might be different yours and mine. Parents may rationalise it differently from another parents, in so saying to themselves; “ It’s ok - this is the best approach because i don’t a want an angry child because ...”
It is also a sad but true fact that society, as a whole, will often use an individual's deafness as the defining characteristic of the individual, especially in situations that do not require extended contact with the deaf person. In educational situations, deafness will be a defining characteristic in deciding accommodation and placement. In employment situations, the same is true.
Of course I knew that, that is true, but I refrained to say this because I didn’t want to impose fear and while indeed it’s something you can't hide or deny.
I do understand what faire_jour is facing, the reality of how doctors, teachers, coaches, are going to treat the child differently. This is the very thing d/Deaf people knows all too well, we are the best ones to ask while there are problems stemming from some of hardcores deafies/Deaf fanatics.
Further the problem, some are parroting along the trendy 'deaf thing' because it is fashionable to talk about human rights, but dare I say half or most of them know jack all, while my other fears is also the 'ones' who 'does' know – the educated and probably employed in high profile positions even the ones served in Gallaudet also have hit this “intellectual dead-end” which stalls the progress of actual human rights effectiveness.
My guess is that it's probably due to number of things, too inward focus on petty politics, and too 'big' - that is the society, even the 'mess' deaf people are in now being so enormous, so fragmented, starting off with big obvious divided 'camps of thoughts' or approaches.
This below from Jillio in response to deafskeptic; that I feel is an excellent phrase that it seem to illustrate well what is meant by 'good parents' and 'bad parents';
It creates a situation where a deaf child is constantly put in the position of feeling they have to prove that they are just as capable, just as intelligent as a hearing child. To a child, this is interpreted as a value judgement, and internalized as a feeling that they have to constantly prove that they are just as "good" as everyone else in spite of their deafness. It actually places more focus on the deafness, and less on the child as a complete and whole person who happens to be deaf.

Being afraid of the pressure on which responsibility to relate with the child in telling the truth about the world they are growing up in, shouldn’t actually be a fearful task or approach. What it would actually do is, will help create the trust bonding between the child and parent because whenever the child would be burden or have questions, they would have no hesitation or fear of ridicule to ask their parents on why the hardship they are facing. From within this bond, the human ‘face’ of the child is more perceivable to the parent because the relationship is based on facing reality, not denying it, it becomes easier for parents to view the wholistic of their child/children and while deafness become an 'defining' element, not stigma to get rid of.

The child ‘knows’ it’s being denied – I know this from when I was a deaf child myself, that even back then i knew the deaf unit I was attending ‘wasn’t normal’, as does I was taught to believe it was right but it didn’t meant I believed it. So over a long time, as confusion begans to simmer over for too long, consciensation bomb ticks away.....this situation is avoidable, the child doesn’t need to overcome ‘deafness’ – society does.
 
There is a lot perceptions here. I think people have to realize that they cannot get the full picture because there's just so many factors. A lot of people here say "I meet a LOT of people who ________". It could be "do well with TC environment", "got severely delayed from oral only", "make negative comments about CI and called me a bad parent." and so on. But all of the above really depends on the environment you are in. Example, Jillio implied (unless there's a statistic that I don't know about) in the above post that she meets a lot of deaf adults who join the deaf community after being raised oral only, giving the impression that MOST deaf adults who were raised orally eventually join the deaf community. But the problem is that why would she meet those who didn't feel the need to join the deaf community, or at least in large numbers? (since those type of deaf adults do not really "get together") So how do we really know that what we experience "Oh I meet a lot of people who ___" really is a majority anyway?

Can I just say that I'm enjoying this post and I'm glad people are not at the cutthroat point (yet...). I went away for the weekend of scuba diving and as I came back I was thinking "I wonder if that thread is locked yet...?" :)

If I accomplish my goal of keeping things civil, it won't get locked!:giggle:
Hope you enjoyed your scuba diving!

There are some studies that indicate that deaf adolescents and adults gravitate toward other deaf in their personal relationships. There is also historical evidence of that. And keep in mind, also,that we are talking about the deaf community which tends to be a bit larger than Deaf Culture.

My point of view is based on personal experience with deaf adults, and personal and professional experience with deaf adoloescents and young adults.

But for a quick illustration of what I am talking about, we can simply pull up the numerous posts I have seen on this forum alone of young adults that are attempting to link up with other deaf people by virtue of this forum. They speak of being caught between 2 worlds, of having been raised without contact with other deaf individuals, and with having a need to find others out there that share their deafness. There would appear to be a universal principle at work that sociologists and psychologists have recognized for many years. My experience has borne out that universal, as I have, indeed, seen it at work in the people with whom I have had personal and professional contact.
 
The difference is that these children's language and socio_emotional development are at stake while as an adult, mine isn't.

I have always stated that I can't dictate what goes on in the home in regards to languasge use and etc. When I talk about deaf children being exposed to both, it is in the educational setting.

As for negative comments, the parents have the right to reject those individuals just like I did but to reject a whole community? That's generalizing. That would be like me rejecting all hearing people cuz of some hearing people treating me like a 2nd class citizen. I still get treated like that by numerous of hearing people to this day but I ignore them and move on to befriend those hearing who respect my needs.

When we talk about children...we r talking about language development and socio-emotional growth and in my belief I think all deaf children should be exposed to both so THEY can make the decision on which path to take when they get older.

Like, iam exposing my half-Mexican daughter to the Mexican culture even though I have no Mexican background. that way she can learn and understand abou the Mexican culture and values so she can decide whether to adopt them or not when she gets older.

I think parents need to stop worrying about what others think and just expose their kids to both. In both world, there ARE nice people and they will encounter nice people. The world is not always going to be kind and forgiving at all times. That's my two cents.

:gpost:
 
Er, I do not know if i am going to making any sense...it's difficult to put to words...sorry in advance if i am not clear but here goes...

I feel compelled to point out the word 'accept' is not completely binary in nature, as people are creatures of reasons - their 'reason' to accept might be different yours and mine. Parents may rationalise it differently from another parents, in so saying to themselves; “ It’s ok - this is the best approach because i don’t a want an angry child because ...”
It is also a sad but true fact that society, as a whole, will often use an individual's deafness as the defining characteristic of the individual, especially in situations that do not require extended contact with the deaf person. In educational situations, deafness will be a defining characteristic in deciding accommodation and placement. In employment situations, the same is true.
Of course I knew that, that is true, but I refrained to say this because I didn’t want to impose fear and while indeed it’s something you can't hide or deny.
I do understand what faire_jour is facing, the reality of how doctors, teachers, coaches, are going to treat the child differently. This is the very thing d/Deaf people knows all too well, we are the best ones to ask while there are problems stemming from some of hardcores deafies/Deaf fanatics.
Further the problem, some are parroting along the trendy 'deaf thing' because it is fashionable to talk about human rights, but dare I say half or most of them know jack all, while my other fears is also the 'ones' who 'does' know – the educated and probably employed in high profile positions even the ones served in Gallaudet also have hit this “intellectual dead-end” which stalls the progress of actual human rights effectiveness.
My guess is that it's probably due to number of things, too inward focus on petty politics, and too 'big' - that is the society, even the 'mess' deaf people are in now being so enormous, so fragmented, starting off with big obvious divided 'camps of thoughts' or approaches.
This below from Jillio in response to deafskeptic; that I feel is an excellent phrase that it seem to illustrate well what is meant by 'good parents' and 'bad parents';
It creates a situation where a deaf child is constantly put in the position of feeling they have to prove that they are just as capable, just as intelligent as a hearing child. To a child, this is interpreted as a value judgement, and internalized as a feeling that they have to constantly prove that they are just as "good" as everyone else in spite of their deafness. It actually places more focus on the deafness, and less on the child as a complete and whole person who happens to be deaf.

Being afraid of the pressure on which responsibility to relate with the child in telling the truth about the world they are growing up in, shouldn’t actually be a fearful task or approach. What it would actually do is, will help create the trust bonding between the child and parent because whenever the child would be burden or have questions, they would have no hesitation or fear of ridicule to ask their parents on why the hardship they are facing. From within this bond, the human ‘face’ of the child is more perceivable to the parent because the relationship is based on facing reality, not denying it, it becomes easier for parents to view the wholistic of their child/children and while deafness become an 'defining' element, not stigma to get rid of.

The child ‘knows’ it’s being denied – I know this from when I was a deaf child myself, that even back then i knew the deaf unit I was attending ‘wasn’t normal’, as does I was taught to believe it was right but it didn’t meant I believed it. So over a long time, as confusion begans to simmer over for too long, consciensation bomb ticks away.....this situation is avoidable, the child doesn’t need to overcome ‘deafness’ – society does.

Your post made quite a bit of sense, Grummer.

Because I am attempting to keep this discussion to a cultural, psycho-social perspective I am going to draw a comparison with African American culture here. But before I do, let me preface it by saying that this has been my experience with African American culture. Being a multi-racial individual, my experience is a blend of 3 different cultures. If anyone has experience that is contradictory to what I am about to say, please do not hesitate to post your experience, as well. It doesn't make either one of us "right" or "wrong"; it simply means that we have experienced that particular cultural influence from a different perspective.

African American children have the cultural experience of being taught to be proud of their cultural heritage while at the same time, being given the very real message that prejudice does exist, and that they will encounter it many times during their lives. From the time they are young children, the closeness of the culture teaches them to deal with these incidents without loosing self esteem, or feeling that they need to be "just like" the majority in order to "fit in." They learn at a very young age that, no matter what they encounter in the wider society, they are also members of a culture that historically has taken care of its own and provided a safe haven to counteract the negativity they may experience outside that culture. Children are not necessarily taught these lessons explicity, as in an adult telling them over and over, "There are prejudiced people out there. Watch your back!" but they are delivered implicity through behavior and attitudes displayed by their adult role models. The adults have accepted that prejudice and discrimination is simply a fact of having been born with darker skin and courser hair. Does this reality become the defining factor in the way they live their life? In the vast majority of cases, no. There are the few extremists who make it the governing principle of their lives, but those, as with the Deaf extremists, are few. However, it is always in the back of their minds, and something to be aware of. It is simply a fact of life...nothing more, nothing less. Being aware of it simply allows them to recognize it and deal with it should it occur. They are able to recognize it for what it is, and do not have to internalize prejudice as a value judgement on them as a person. African American children are taught, by African American adults who have been there, how to deal with these obstacles in a healthy way. They are taught to expect the inevitable cases of rejection and prejudice they will encounter in the wider society, and to see these incidents for what they are. Because it is not a case of if it will happen, but when it will happen, they are given the skills to deal with it.

The same can be said of deaf children. They will encounter cases of prejudice and discrimination based on nothing more than their hearing status. No matter what assistive devise they use, no matter how well they speak, no matter how much contact they have with hearing people only, they will, inevitably, encounter discrimination at several points in their life. We can't make it go away, we can't protect them from it their entire lives, we can't pretend it doesn't exist. The best we can do is teach them that it does exist, and give them the skills they need to deal with it without letting it damage their self image. Those skills are provided with cultural contact. Those are the skills that are best taught by those that have been there.

We tell our deaf children, "You are just as good, just as capable, just as smart as any hearing child." This is a very true statement, and one we definately need to give our deaf children. What we fail to tell them is, despite the fact that this is a true statement, there will be people throughout your life that will refuse to see the truth in that statement. If we haven't given them a safe haven where they can assoicate with others who have expereienced it and survived it, and gone on to do outstanding things with their lives, encounters with people who don't see the truth in that statement threaten to overwhelm them. Deaf children, as do any children, need to have contact with someone who understands their experience on a very basic level. A level that goes beyond words, that goes beyond a hearing parent telling them, "That was very unfair. That was mean. I'm sure that hurt your feelings. Those people are just narrow minded. It doesn't have anything to do with who you really are." Those statements, although emapthic and necessary, come from the outside looking in when they come from a hearing parent or friend. What deaf children need is to hear the same thing from someone who is inside looking out. They need to know that they are understood without having to explain; know that they are understood on a very fundamental level by someone who has been in the same position. They need their experiences validated, to be told that they are real, in order to learn how to deal with them. That is where the deaf community is so valuable. That is where deaf role models are crucial.

Shel has provided a very good example of this. She is exposing her daughter to Mexican culture and to Caucasion culture because they are both a part of who she is. She is also exposing her, by experience, to Deaf culture, because it is a part of who her mother is, and African American culture because it is a part of who her step family is, and who her brother is. As a result, she will never feel the need to deny who she is, or what her heritage is. She is being shown that it is a valuable and respected part of the person she is and will become. This is the greatest gift a parent can give a child. Shel and her daughter are alike in many ways, but in some ways they are different. Her daughter is both Mexican and Caucasion; Shel is Caucasion. Her daughter is hearing; Shel is Deaf. Likewise, her son is African American and Caucasion; he is also hearing. She helps those children to celebrate the parts of themselves that are different from her while at the same time, celebrating the parts that are the same. She is not threatened by the fact that her children are different from her in some ways. She does what she can to make sure that they are comfortable with those differences, and by exposing them to different cultures that reinforce those differences, communicates to them in a very real and solid way that those are things to be celebrated, not denied. What a wonderful message to give a child.

I apologize for using you as an example, Shel, but I do admire you and your open mindedness. You have taken some lessons you learned as a child, and used them as a benefit for your kids. You have extended them beyond just painful experiences as a deaf child to include all aspects of a child's being, and that is rare to see.
 
--------CUT---------------------

We tell our deaf children, "You are just as good, just as capable, just as smart as any hearing child." This is a very true statement, and one we definately need to give our deaf children. What we fail to tell them is, despite the fact that this is a true statement, there will be people throughout your life that will refuse to see the truth in that statement. If we haven't given them a safe haven where they can assoicate with others who have expereienced it and survived it, and gone on to do outstanding things with their lives, encounters with people who don't see the truth in that statement threaten to overwhelm them. Deaf children, as do any children, need to have contact with someone who understands their experience on a very basic level. A level that goes beyond words, that goes beyond a hearing parent telling them, "That was very unfair. That was mean. I'm sure that hurt your feelings. Those people are just narrow minded. It doesn't have anything to do with who you really are." Those statements, although emapthic and necessary, come from the outside looking in when they come from a hearing parent or friend. What deaf children need is to hear the same thing from someone who is inside looking out. They need to know that they are understood without having to explain; know that they are understood on a very fundamental level by someone who has been in the same position. They need their experiences validated, to be told that they are real, in order to learn how to deal with them. That is where the deaf community is so valuable. That is where deaf role models are crucial.

----CUT----

This thread is still not overturned by low level comments on ASL, CS, oral and so on from me and other people, impressive :) Keep it up! Great post Jillio(and the rest of you).

Just want to add I think meting other deaf children is pretty important. A deaf adult have travelled the deaf path, and can't be company on the road, and is mostly limited to putting up road signs for the travellers coming later. It's only other people at the same level that can join you for company along the road. This is perhaps what parents should be careful rejecting, in addition to road signs.

But it's of course not this simple. Sometimes it's the child who rejects, sometimes the local deaf friends, some choose to travel that path later, and so on. But to be general, I belive this holds true, that deaf children benfits great from other deaf children.
 
I just want to clarify something. People talk about "exposure" to the deaf community. What does this mean? Meeting other deaf people "like you"? This would mean I'd be friends with those who were raised oral like me. And I doubt this is the type of exposure people are talking about. For me to be truly exposed to the deaf community, this would require for me to learn ASL fluently so that I can communicate with the majority of the deaf community, right? I'm just trying to clarify exactly at what point can one say that I am truly "exposed" to the deaf community?

It seems to me that learning ASL is a prerequisite.
 
I just want to clarify something. People talk about "exposure" to the deaf community. What does this mean? Meeting other deaf people "like you"? This would mean I'd be friends with those who were raised oral like me. And I doubt this is the type of exposure people are talking about. For me to be truly exposed to the deaf community, this would require for me to learn ASL fluently so that I can communicate with the majority of the deaf community, right? I'm just trying to clarify exactly at what point can one say that I am truly "exposed" to the deaf community?

It seems to me that learning ASL is a prerequisite.

1st bolded, Maybe you could get inoculated if you are worried.:P

2nd bolded, It really is not that difficult.
 
1st bolded, Maybe you could get inoculated if you are worried.:P

2nd bolded, It really is not that difficult.

Hehe about your first comment... :)

About second comment, I know it's not difficult. I took a class myself and it was pretty easy for me. However, being fluent in ANY language most likely requires immersion. It's just not enough to learn from a class, so I was just saying that simple exposure doesn't seem to be enough, you'd have to be fully immersed in the deaf community in order to get a grasp of it.

Just trying to define what exactly does the deaf community want from hearing parents? Is it just teaching ASL to the child first? Or is it just exposure to the deaf community? Or is it putting your child in an educational setting with other deaf children? All of the above? None of the above? Required minimum 2 out of 3?

Let's use Jillio's example of a culture. I'm going to use Cubans instead of African Americans, just because I'm of Cuban nationality :). Exposure to the Cuban culture sounds great. What about learning Spanish first? What about going to a school with only Cubans? I would definitely expose my child to Cubans and would even teach my child Spanish first (which is the norm in my family) but I wouldn't want my child to be surrounded MOSTLY by Cubans nor go to an all Spanish school. I understand that deaf children are forced in the hearing world anyway, so they are automatically exposed to the hearing world, but it really is not that simple. If my family is Cuban and my child's friends are Cuban, what's left? The occasional non-Cuban stranger who says "Oh Hello! You are so cute! How old are you?" ? And yes 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents, but it seems to me that most of a child's development and social life is in the educational setting, especially when a child and parents do not communicate well.

It's surprisingly hard to get your thoughts together during lunch at work! I'll try to clarify later tonight.
 
I have read that certain members of the Deaf Community fear CI and oralism believing that it'll wipe out the Deaf Community.

I am surprised people don't mention those comments. Members of the Deaf Community have expressed direct and ridiculous concerns. A direct one is fear that the CI will wipe out the Deaf Community. The ridiculous concerns is that it'll make children robots, putting a knife on children, ripping off the CI during a fight, etc.

It is not our responsibility to raise other deaf children. It is our responsibility to educate parents, and to be good at this without insulting parents takes great skills. Advocacy is not preferring one method of communication over another. The most important thing before all this is parental committment and diligency to their deaf children. It is not up to the school to do all of the work. Because a group of children has been observed to have received improper education should not apply to every deaf children. Deaf children are not the only group that experience neglect.

It isn't fair to judge parents choice to raise deaf children in general because deaf children are born throughout the world, and it will depend on their local school performance, whether deaf school or whatever.
 
This is a wonderful thread and I applaud each one of you all that contributed to this powerful thread. 18 beautiful pages just filled with empowerment, I bow before you all! *kudos!*
 
I just want to clarify something. People talk about "exposure" to the deaf community. What does this mean? Meeting other deaf people "like you"? This would mean I'd be friends with those who were raised oral like me. And I doubt this is the type of exposure people are talking about. For me to be truly exposed to the deaf community, this would require for me to learn ASL fluently so that I can communicate with the majority of the deaf community, right? I'm just trying to clarify exactly at what point can one say that I am truly "exposed" to the deaf community?

It seems to me that learning ASL is a prerequisite.


Despite the various communication methods that deaf people are raised with, despite various family backgrounds, despite differences in educational background, there are still common themes to the experience of deafness. It is not necessary for you to be fluent in ASL to be exposed to Deaf Culture. Deaf Culture is the best place to learn fluency through immersion. And the deaf community, being larger than those who ID with Deaf Culture, contains individuals who use a variety of communication methods.

ASL is the language of Deaf Culture, and if one wants to participate in Deaf Culture, then one most definately needs to become proficient in the language. Anthroplogists do research on other cultures from the Participant/Observer method. They live within the culture they are studying, they learn the language from the aboringines, they learn the values and norms from observing the members of that culture, and they gain acceptance by the members of that culture by participating in rituals, celebrations, etc., etc. It has long been known that this is the best manner for studying culture.

I am not suggesting that anyone become anthroplogical researchers, but there is validity to the methods. Just something to think about.
 
African American children have the cultural experience of being taught to be proud of their cultural heritage while at the same time, being given the very real message that prejudice does exist, and that they will encounter it many times during their lives. From the time they are young children, the closeness of the culture teaches them to deal with these incidents without loosing self esteem, or feeling that they need to be "just like" the majority in order to "fit in." They learn at a very young age that, no matter what they encounter in the wider society, they are also members of a culture that historically has taken care of its own and provided a safe haven to counteract the negativity they may experience outside that culture. Children are not necessarily taught these lessons explicity, as in an adult telling them over and over, "There are prejudiced people out there. Watch your back!" but they are delivered implicity through behavior and attitudes displayed by their adult role models. The adults have accepted that prejudice and discrimination is simply a fact of having been born with darker skin and courser hair. Does this reality become the defining factor in the way they live their life? In the vast majority of cases, no. There are the few extremists who make it the governing principle of their lives, but those, as with the Deaf extremists, are few. However, it is always in the back of their minds, and something to be aware of. It is simply a fact of life...nothing more, nothing less. Being aware of it simply allows them to recognize it and deal with it should it occur. They are able to recognize it for what it is, and do not have to internalize prejudice as a value judgement on them as a person. African American children are taught, by African American adults who have been there, how to deal with these obstacles in a healthy way. They are taught to expect the inevitable cases of rejection and prejudice they will encounter in the wider society, and to see these incidents for what they are. Because it is not a case of if it will happen, but when it will happen, they are given the skills to deal with it.

The same can be said of deaf children. They will encounter cases of prejudice and discrimination based on nothing more than their hearing status. No matter what assistive devise they use, no matter how well they speak, no matter how much contact they have with hearing people only, they will, inevitably, encounter discrimination at several points in their life. We can't make it go away, we can't protect them from it their entire lives, we can't pretend it doesn't exist. The best we can do is teach them that it does exist, and give them the skills they need to deal with it without letting it damage their self image. Those skills are provided with cultural contact. Those are the skills that are best taught by those that have been there.

We tell our deaf children, "You are just as good, just as capable, just as smart as any hearing child." This is a very true statement, and one we definately need to give our deaf children. What we fail to tell them is, despite the fact that this is a true statement, there will be people throughout your life that will refuse to see the truth in that statement. If we haven't given them a safe haven where they can assoicate with others who have expereienced it and survived it, and gone on to do outstanding things with their lives, encounters with people who don't see the truth in that statement threaten to overwhelm them. Deaf children, as do any children, need to have contact with someone who understands their experience on a very basic level. A level that goes beyond words, that goes beyond a hearing parent telling them, "That was very unfair. That was mean. I'm sure that hurt your feelings. Those people are just narrow minded. It doesn't have anything to do with who you really are." Those statements, although emapthic and necessary, come from the outside looking in when they come from a hearing parent or friend. What deaf children need is to hear the same thing from someone who is inside looking out. They need to know that they are understood without having to explain; know that they are understood on a very fundamental level by someone who has been in the same position. They need their experiences validated, to be told that they are real, in order to learn how to deal with them. That is where the deaf community is so valuable. That is where deaf role models are crucial.

That is why I am abit jealous of African-American families and the likes. At least the child can identified with his/her parents. The child can get home and see/interact with those adult role models. The deaf child can't do that with his/her hearing parents. The child really needs to be able to meet deaf adults like deaf teachers or adults at the deaf gatherings. Too many times (especially if the hearing parents want nothing to do with deaf world and support oralism only) the child is in a very difficult position.
 
That is why I am abit jealous of African-American families and the likes. At least the child can identified with his/her parents. The child can get home and see/interact with those adult role models. The deaf child can't do that with his/her hearing parents. The child really needs to be able to meet deaf adults like deaf teachers or adults at the deaf gatherings. Too many times (especially if the hearing parents want nothing to do with deaf world and support oralism only) the child is in a very difficult position.[/QUOTE]

And it seems that the parents make the decisions for themselves due to not being interested in learning ASL nor interacting with the Deaf community. I dont know how it can be beneficial for the deaf child to make that kind of decision. If it seems offensive, my apologies but that is how I feel.
 
That is why I am abit jealous of African-American families and the likes. At least the child can identified with his/her parents. The child can get home and see/interact with those adult role models. The deaf child can't do that with his/her hearing parents. The child really needs to be able to meet deaf adults like deaf teachers or adults at the deaf gatherings. Too many times (especially if the hearing parents want nothing to do with deaf world and support oralism only) the child is in a very difficult position.

Agreed. And I really do believe that hearing parents do a huge injustice to a deaf child when they lead them to believe that they can be just like their hearing peers, and that their deafness does not make a difference. They get out into the real world, and discover that reality is much much different from what they have been told.
 
Agreed. And I really do believe that hearing parents do a huge injustice to a deaf child when they lead them to believe that they can be just like their hearing peers, and that their deafness does not make a difference. They get out into the real world, and discover that reality is much much different from what they have been told.

Yea...


some of my students never get to go to Deaf events cuz their parents wont take them. Their parents' excuses were that they werent interested or they had other priorities. Ok, fine I perfectly understand about having other priorities...but not even once in their child's lifetime?? Come on! I find that hard to believe. I mean, is it hard to ask to go once a year? Heck, I even learn from these students that they go to their hearing siblings' school events...now, that to me is just plain cruel. Many deaf parents of heairng children take their children to their school-sponsored events or have their children participate in the community's organizations or sports leagues.
 
Yea...


some of my students never get to go to Deaf events cuz their parents wont take them. Their parents' excuses were that they werent interested or they had other priorities. Ok, fine I perfectly understand about having other priorities...but not even once in their child's lifetime?? Come on! I find that hard to believe. I mean, is it hard to ask to go once a year? Heck, I even learn from these students that they go to their hearing siblings' school events...now, that to me is just plain cruel. Many deaf parents of heairng children take their children to their school-sponsored events or have their children participate in the community's organizations or sports leagues.

It is cruel. This little girl I know goes to deaf events. We don't have them where I live, but they travel with her 160mi (give or take), so she can be with other people who are deaf. This little girl is six, but they make sure she interacts with other deaf children and deaf adults whenever possible. This has greatly enhanced both her speech AND signing skills; as well as the parents signing skills as well. It's awesome to have the best of both worlds, no? :)
 
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