Gitmo Closing

[Reba]

I'm amazed how some of you disagree with Obama's decision for close Guantanamo Bay - concentration camp. I thought some of you would agree that torture should not be tolerated...?

First, that's presuming that torture happened at GITMO.

Second, how does moving them to another prison guarantee no torture, if you're assuming that Americans commit torture on the prisoners?

Third, if torture in GITMO is unproven, why is it necessary to move them?

Guantanamo has been an "embarrassment" to the USA in the past years that's why I Obama's decision to close Guantanamo Bay within a year.

It's only an "embarrassment" because the press says it is. There is no proof. (Accusations and blogs are not proof.)

Why does some of you seem to think that all the people in Guantanamo Bay are terrorists?

Because they were caught in the act?

Does they have trial?

Have they been convicted?

What kind of evidence do we have against them?

It's called "pre-trial confinement." The law permits dangerous people who have a strong possibility of escape or harming other people to be confined prior to a trial.

How do you know they are terrorists? Most of them haven't even been charged with anything yet. Are they terrorists because the US government said so?

Most of them were caught during battles or terrorist activities. What would you do with them if you caught them?

The only alternatives on the field of battle is to kill them on the spot, or wave bye-bye and let them continue killing. Is that your solution?

Don't forget that same government said that Saddam had WMDs in Iraq? Oh yes, that same government once said that Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were connect each other? :roll:

These are people captured by our military, not politicians. It has nothing to do with anything else. You're mixing apples and oranges.

I do not against suspected terrorists being arrested and keep for few days until they have proof but it's not right to send muslims to disgusting camp for torture them for years until they confess guilty without legal trial.

Keep them a few days? Then what?

Do you know they can't even be fully identified for more than "a few days?" Do you know anything about processing enemy combatants?

GITMO is NOT a "disgusting camp", and they aren't tortured for years "until they confess guilty."

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Well, Gitmo camp isn't part of our constitution and they are under military law that allows to torture or cruel punishment, unless president tell to stop or so.

Well accord Geneva Convention and international law, the torture is forbidden.

UN or Obama can prosecute Bush and Cheney for violate Geneva Convention and internation law and also consititution as well if they want to. Many people WANT them to prosecute Bush and Cheney. The rumor was begin few days before 20th January that Obama is going to check with this before he can prosecute Bush and Cheney for this. Is the rumor true? Wait and see

 

[Reba]

torture Guantanamo Bay - Google Bilder

Unbelievable! You call that link "proof"?! How dare you! That is totally false incendiary posting.

Just because those pictures are linked under your key words, you assume that they actually show GITMO people and torture? Unbelievable!

Did you even bother to click on some of those images to see what the sources were, or what the stories were that they illustrated?

For example, the one of guys naked fighting are "The Royal Marines in this footage were stripped naked and forced to beat each other as part of an 'initiation ritual'".

Several examples were pictures from Abughraib, NOT GITMO.

Some pictures were, "Amnesty International members protest reported abuses of detainees at the hands of U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in Paris in January 2007."

Some pictures aren't identified at all, so there's no way to tell who the people are, where they are, or what they are doing.

...AND YOU CALL THAT STUFF PROOF?!!!

That is totally dishonest.

 

[naisho]

I'm amazed how some of you disagree with Obama's decision for close Guantanamo Bay - concentration camp. I thought some of you would agree that torture should not be tolerated...?

Well, it's not that I disagree with the closing of GB. It's the effect that it will have. Some of us including Reba and I discussed about how these inmates will be merged with existing state prisons. From there it gives the people living in those states a feeling of queasiness knowing that we're having real "terrorists, serial killers, psychopaths" in our states. Also the weighting of the fact that these guys can break loose and be back on our streets.

It's a paranoia, but I think it is worth accounting as an opinion.

 

[naisho]

Unbelievable! You call that link "proof"?! How dare you! That is totally false incendiary posting.

Just because those pictures are linked under your key words, you assume that they actually show GITMO people and torture? Unbelievable!

Did you even bother to click on some of those images to see what the sources were, or what the stories were that they illustrated?

For example, the one of guys naked fighting are "The Royal Marines in this footage were stripped naked and forced to beat each other as part of an 'initiation ritual'".

Several examples were pictures from Abughraib, NOT GITMO.

Some pictures were, "Amnesty International members protest reported abuses of detainees at the hands of U.S. military at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in Paris in January 2007."

Some pictures aren't identified at all, so there's no way to tell who the people are, where they are, or what they are doing.

...AND YOU CALL THAT STUFF PROOF?!!!

That is totally dishonest.

Wow, I just clicked and saw those pictures and I have to say that's crazy. But I'm not going to be one shot to believe these are all from GB. There's no proof provided, we don't know if these are actual inmates at GB or another prison. The way google indexing works on images is that it searches the webpage for the topic that is discussed, and saves all the images on that page. The images don't necessarily have to be related to the topic, and it will tag it down. Once the tags are set, anyone who googles the terms will find the pictures linked to that website, and as you know, not all of the pics have to be 100% from the topic.

Here, here's an example:

You see this picture on the google image search:

Then you go to the website that has the picture:
Canada red-faced after accusing US and Israel of torture // Current
When you read that it has no supporting evidence that this is from GB. It states in the news article that this is the method of torture, but it doesn't state that it's from GB. It could be anyone at another jail or even someone else's country.

 

[Hear Again]

what is the pic you posted of, naisho?

 

[Jiro]

what is the pic you posted of, naisho?

it's all bunch of torture pictures. what naisho posted is the prisoner being waterboarded - his head was wrapped with towel and he was placed on inclined board (his head is at lower ground). the water was poured at his face so that it imitated "drowning" effect

 

[Hear Again]

it's all bunch of torture pictures. what naisho posted is the prisoner being waterboarded - his head was wrapped with towel and the water was poured at his face.

yikes! i'm glad i can't see that.

 

[Jiro]

yikes! i'm glad i can't see that.

what happened at abu ghraib is nothing comparable to what happened at gitmo camp.

 

[Hear Again]

what happened at abu ghraib is nothing comparable to what happened at gitmo camp.

i'm glad i can't see any of it.

 

[Jiro]

i'm glad i can't see any of it.

it's equally worse when hearing the details about it.

 

[Reba]

what happened at abu ghraib is nothing comparable to what happened at gitmo camp.

Proof?

 

[Jiro]

Proof?

see whistleblowers' pictures and Article 32 Hearing and Senate Armed Services Committee's hearing.

 

[darkdog]

This is an issue that's hard to figure out the truth because there's so much propaganda and so much information is classified. I tend to believe that claims of prisoner mistreatment at Guantanamo have some basis in reality, but have been exaggerated by the media and the left. For the most part, it seems that we have bent over backwards to provide humane treatment for the prisoners. There's a book being released tomorrow that I may read in the near future. I think it's premise is probably close to the truth.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gitmo-Story-Behind-Guantanamo/dp/006176230X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232932400&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Inside Gitmo: The True Story Behind the Myths of Guantanamo Bay: Gordon Cucullu: Books[/ame]

 

[darkdog]

Oh yeah, and I have to criticize Obama over this decision. This decision seems to be purely political and makes no sense from a military or security perspective. If there is indeed a widespread problem with torture, I don't see how moving the prisoners will fix it. I hope his plan to make a plan works out.

 

[Hear Again]

it's equally worse when hearing the details about it.

that's part of the reason why i read as little as possible about this subject. the less i know, the better.

 

[Reba]

...There's a book being released tomorrow that I may read in the near future. I think it's premise is probably close to the truth.

Amazon.com: Inside Gitmo: The True Story Behind the Myths of Guantanamo Bay: Gordon Cucullu: Books

Sounds interesting; thanks for the link.

 

[darkdog]

Sounds interesting; thanks for the link.

No problemo.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

actually no. Military Law forbids it. That's why they hired "Independent Contractor" to do it for military. It's a clever walk-around but rather shameful.

Accord the German-Turkish Murat´s book, I read saying that it´s not just "Independent Contractor" but soliders are also involved as well.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

First, that's presuming that torture happened at GITMO.

Because many Detainnes who were being released to back to their country (Australia, Germany, France, etc) share the same thing what and how they experience there in GB.

Second, how does moving them to another prison guarantee no torture, if you're assuming that Americans commit torture on the prisoners?

Third, if torture in GITMO is unproven, why is it necessary to move them?

It's only an "embarrassment" because the press says it is. There is no proof. (Accusations and blogs are not proof.)



Because they were caught in the act?

wow, I am total speechless and appalled over your comment. Many detainees repeated their bad experience there in GB for YEARS but they were being denied. I keep quiet myself because the people claimed that the photos are false.... until many detainees including German-Turkish Murat convince me at last... and accept that their experience is true. I am not alone but the alot of people around the world accept their experience as true as well...

It's called "pre-trial confinement." The law permits dangerous people who have a strong possibility of escape or harming other people to be confined prior to a trial.

If they are dangerous then why do US Government released them for? I learn a lot from reading Murat´s book... wow... I know Murat is not alone who said the same thing... it´s not really trial.

Most of them were caught during battles or terrorist activities. What would you do with them if you caught them?

The only alternatives on the field of battle is to kill them on the spot, or wave bye-bye and let them continue killing. Is that your solution?

Do you mean war in Iraq war? If yes, but US started to attack their country... it doesn´t mean that Iraqis are terrorists because they defend their country against US` attack.

These are people captured by our military, not politicians. It has nothing to do with anything else. You're mixing apples and oranges.

No, military belongs US Government including politicians. I do not see anything that I mixed apples and oranges but the fact because US Government says those words. Its about "war on terror". Don´t you know it´s German counsellor Angela Merkel who talked Bush personally to release Turkish-German Murat out of GB 6 months after she won at election...? Bush finally agrees to release Murat out of GB... Without Angela Merkel, Murat would stay in GB for long time until Obama close GB...

Keep them a few days? Then what?

Are you saying that you agrees to keep innocents in torture camp for long years when they have no proof to against them?

Do you know they can't even be fully identified for more than "a few days?" Do you know anything about processing enemy combatants?

There´re NO proof against them but just because they are muslims... They felt that US Government do not see them as terrorists but muslims.

GITMO is NOT a "disgusting camp", and they aren't tortured for years "until they confess guilty."

wow, YES, GITMO is a torture camp for years since after 9\11.

It look like that Europeans and other countries know more than Americans about GITMO issues.