Feelings on how a Deaf child should be taught

You have misunderstood. Like I said, the original residential schools in the 1800's were bilingual/biculutral.
And back in the year of 1800 no deaf were capable to speak until A.G. Bell stepped in, then in 1920 sign language were dropped. Forty years later a study showed that deaf education using mostly oral methods, then the new philosophy total communication came in, sign language came back, then became difficult for some deaf children using sign language and English the same time. Like one member here stated that ASL was used in a total communication program, when ASL has its own grammar and it's own set of rule. You cannot mix ASL with English. It's impossible, and you know it. :)
 
And back in the year of 1800 no deaf were capable to speak until A.G. Bell stepped in, then in 1920 sign language were dropped. Forty years later a study showed that deaf education using mostly oral methods, then the new philosophy total communication came in, sign language came back, then became difficult for some deaf children using sign language and English the same time. Like one member here stated that ASL was used in a total communication program, when ASL has its own grammar and it's own set of rule. You cannot mix ASL with English. It's impossible, and you know it. :)


The bolded is totally false. Please substantiate your claims. Deaf individuals were able to speak and received oral training long before A.G. Bell stepped in and tried to make it mandatory for ALL DEAF to use oral only communication.

TC came into play because of the failure of the oral only methods proposed by people such as A.G. Bell.

T.C. does attempt to mix ASL and English, as well as using bastardized systems such as the MCEs. It provides a completely confusing linguistic atmposphere, and does not permit a child to be exposed to accurrate models of either language. That is exactly why it has failed, and why the education of deaf children is in the sorry shape that it has been in since the 1970's.

Bi-Bi does not mix the two languages. It keeps them totally separate and complete in and of themselves. That is why it is successful. It also allows for oral skills for those that are able to acquire them. What it doesn't do is restrict a deaf child to an oral only environment, or an environment that uses an MCE that is confusing linguistically.

It is puzzling, indeed that people object to a method that provides for ALL of a deaf child's needs in favor of a restrictive method.
 
Then why are schools moving away from this method and replacing it with bi-bi?

I am still trying to grasp exactly how different a TC program is from a Bi-Bi program. I get the bicultural aspect--it does seem true that the idea of Deaf culture is not always introduced in other types of deaf programs. But I am trying to understand the bilingual concept when comparing TC to Bi-Bi. From what I have learned so far, it seems that a TC program would always have both speech and sign, as well as printed materials. From what I have learned about Bi-Bi so far, it seems that there is more emphasis on ASL even though there is still some speech, too--and, of course, printed materials.

As I picture a TC environment, I see that the kids who rely on ASL definitely need someone who is fluent in ASL--a teacher, an interpreter, or both. I get that, for kids who need a full ASL language(not just signs), nothing less than a fluent ASL teacher/interpreter would do--they need the FULL language system. And, I also see that the kids in this same program who rely on spoken English need a teacher(and maybe an oral interpreter?) who is fluent in THEIR first language. They need someone who can speak to them fluently and communicate completely with them in English--if not, they are going to miss a lot--just as ASL only kids would miss a lot without someone fluent in ASL around at all times. In this situation, there would need to be BOTH at all times, right? I guess, from what I have seen, that often takes form by having both a teacher for the deaf and an interpreter in class at all times--or a teacher who is very fluent in both English and ASL who can use both according to who she is communicating with at the time. Example: teacher speaks to oral deaf students, interpreter signs to ASL students--both happening at the same time. Another example: teacher speaks to oral deaf students at times, teacher uses ASL with ASL students at other times, depending on who she is communicating with at the time. I have observed both of these situations--they seem to work because both groups are being presented all info in their language. When I observed classes at FSDB, it seemed to be the second example--I heard teachers speaking(including some oral deaf teachers), I saw the same teachers signing also--maybe a "double presentation" style where they often present the same info twice(once in each language). I know I am not describing it well--I am just trying to explain what I saw--some students were speaking to the teachers, some were signing--the teachers were speaking at times and signing at times--both going on during each class. While I understand how difficult it would be to follow BOTH languages at the EXACT same time--that would be hard to do if not impossible to do with ANY two languages being used at the exact same time--the staggering of two languages(use one and then the other back and forth) may work. Still, those fluent in one language are focusing on their language, and vice-versa. I don't know how much ASL the oral deaf kids are really picking up this way--they are busy concentrating on their own language--but they are being exposed to ASL, so they pick up some. And, some kids who use ASL more but lipread some may also be picking up some things from the spoken English--some may pick up more than others. This is all gathered from my observations of what I would say are TC programs.

Now, I have never really seen a Bi-Bi program in action--I am trying to grasp what a Bi-Bi program is really like for deaf kids. Once again, I get the cultural aspect--that is good--they are learning to love and accept themselves as deaf/Deaf and are getting comfortable with their "deaf identity." What I am wondering is, how does the bilingual aspect work in the classroom? If there are deaf kids whose first language is ASL and deaf kids whose first language is English in the same class, how does it work? If the teachers are ASL only sometimes, do the kids who aren't fluent in ASL get left out--or, would an oral interpreter be needed? As kids are learning ASL, how do they keep up(before they are fluent)--does the teacher present everything in print(like maybe with real time captioning), or does she also present things in spoken English, or is there someone always there to interpret the teacher's ASL into English for those who are not fluent in ASL? I am just wondering how Bi-Bi works for kids who are not yet fluent in ASL--I imagine there are accommodations, but I am wondering exactly how they "bridge the gap" while these kids are still learning ASL. I am assuming that Bi-Bi programs ALSO use spoken English, but I am wondering how much and in what way? I am trying to picture a child, whose first language is English, trying to learn in ASL only situations--in the reverse situations when an ASL only child is in a classroom where spoken English is used they usually have an interpreter who signs everything that is spoken so that they won't miss anything--I am wondering if a child whose first language is English would also get an interpreter to translate all ASL into English for them(in a Bi-Bi classroom). Does anyone know how this works in Bi-Bi programs?

Having said all of that, I am trying simply to truly understand the difference between TC and Bi-Bi. Once again, I understand that Bi-Bi means bicultural and bilingual. I understand the bicultural aspect--that is good and will be great for the self-esteem of deaf children. What I am trying to understand is how the bilingual aspect works in Bi-Bi programs--surely there are many students who are just learning ASL--I am wondering how Bi-Bi programs teach these kids. If there are interpreters or teachers who can help translate ASL into English so that they can keep up--just like in TC programs that have people translate English to ASL--then I can see how that would work. If not, then I can see a problem if kids who are not fluent in ASL are presented ASL only classes--surely there are accommodations to help them. Are teachers in Bi-Bi programs truly bilingual--do they present all of their lessons in BOTH languages--or are there interpreters making sure that English speaking kids get complete translations of all things presented in ASL? Once kids ARE fluent in ASL, then this translation may not be needed--but it can take a while to become fluent--and an English speaker may be more likely to learn SEE instead of ASL, right? I am just trying to understand how English speakers can learn to be fluent in ASL--and, until they are, how do Bi-Bi programs help them bridge the gap?
 
The bolded is totally false. Please substantiate your claims. Deaf individuals were able to speak and received oral training long before A.G. Bell stepped in and tried to make it mandatory for ALL DEAF to use oral only communication.

You can catch deaf history on the movie "Through Deaf Eyes" and You could read books about Alexander Bell. It tells all about the deaf history. I did not read where it stated that deaf children did speak before A.G. Bell stepped in.

As I remembered A.G. Bell stated that deaf teachers should not teach deaf children, as they could not instruct during speech lessons. The term "deaf and dumb" and "deaf and mute" were applied to that class of individuals who didn't neither hear nor speak. That was the reason why AGBell's ideas were accepted. He was the one who invented visible speech so he can helped guide the deaf in learning to speak.
 
You can catch deaf history on the movie "Through Deaf Eyes" and You could read books about Alexander Bell. It tells all about the deaf history. I did not read where it stated that deaf children did speak before A.G. Bell stepped in.

As I remembered A.G. Bell stated that deaf teachers should not teach deaf children, as they could not instruct during speech lessons. The term "deaf and dumb" and "deaf and mute" were applied to that class of individuals who didn't neither hear nor speak. That was the reason why AGBell's ideas were accepted. He was the one who invented visible speech so he can helped guide the deaf in learning to speak.

NO. Those who had the skills to learn speech have always been instructed in that skill at deaf schools. It was Bell who decided that ALL deaf MUST learn through speech ONLY.

Also, Bell had no great grand method to suddenly make speech visible. It was plain old lipreading.
 
Also, in regards to bi-bi schools, ASL is the language of instruction at all times. Every student must be fluent in ASL, that is to be their first and primary language. English is taught as a second language. Speech, listening, and speechreading are taught outside the voice-off classroom. ASL is used by everyone on campus at all times for every exchange, so that all information is accessable at all times.

That is what my daughter's bi-bi classroom looks like.

In our local TC classes, a teacher would SIM-COM ASL signs in English word order. They would speak everything and sign what they could. For example, in preschool the teacher would say "Let's all go get our coats, line up, and go outside", and she would sign COAT, LINE, and OUTSIDE. Not a good ASL model at all. Also, there are no Deaf adults in our TC school, only hearing people. When a teacher is talking to another adult, they speak thus leaving the kids out.
 
Also, in regards to bi-bi schools, ASL is the language of instruction at all times. Every student must be fluent in ASL, that is to be their first and primary language. English is taught as a second language. Speech, listening, and speechreading are taught outside the voice-off classroom. ASL is used by everyone on campus at all times for every exchange, so that all information is accessable at all times.

That is what my daughter's bi-bi classroom looks like.

In our local TC classes, a teacher would SIM-COM ASL signs in English word order. They would speak everything and sign what they could. For example, in preschool the teacher would say "Let's all go get our coats, line up, and go outside", and she would sign COAT, LINE, and OUTSIDE. Not a good ASL model at all. Also, there are no Deaf adults in our TC school, only hearing people. When a teacher is talking to another adult, they speak thus leaving the kids out.

I couldn't have explained it better.

Thae last statement is another big turn off for me about TC programs..that the staff do not sign at all times therefore denying the children's rights to incidential learning which is also extremely critical for language development. That's another big factor why I won't ever work in a TC program again. As a staff myself, I didn't have full access to information but the program wasn't made for me, it was developed for the students it was supposed to serve so as an adult who has a strong language base, for me to constantly miss out on info or mistunderstand staff due to Sim-comming or using other MCEs, I can't imagine what it must be like for the children who are in the developmental stages for language acquistion. This lack of access to language at all times have caused so many deaf children to become language delayed in which leads to delays in literacy skills. When people blame ASL for it, they are barking up the wrong tree.

Deaf children's rights r being taken away when that happens and I don't understand how that be ok. It is not ok in my book.
 
But it does have a long history. The original residential schools used a bi-bi approach, and at the time, students were testing out with literacy scores on par with hearing peers. It is only after the oralists took over that the residential schools began to experience difficulties with the education of their students and deaf teachers started loosing their jobs.

Ah! In the days of Laurent Clerc, they didn't called it Bi-Bi education but that is what it was. I would love to see those literacy scores from that time. Where do they keep those records???
 
NO. Those who had the skills to learn speech have always been instructed in that skill at deaf schools. It was Bell who decided that ALL deaf MUST learn through speech ONLY.

Also, Bell had no great grand method to suddenly make speech visible. It was plain old lipreading.

LOL but so many forget that despite deaf people acquiring speech skills, there is the issue of the receptive end. Despite having excellent speech skills, deaf people continue to miss out on a lot cuz lipreading doesnt not give 100% access to language or communication. I should know cuz I am one of them.
 
Ah! In the days of Laurent Clerc, they didn't called it Bi-Bi education but that is what it was. I would love to see those literacy scores from that time. Where do they keep those records???

Back then Deaf people would learn to read and write several languages. They didn't have "4th grade reading levels". They were well educated. I have read some of Clerc's writings, he was a brillant man.
 
LOL but so many forget that despite deaf people acquiring speech skills, there is the issue of the receptive end. Despite having excellent speech skills, deaf people continue to miss out on a lot cuz lipreading doesnt not give 100% access to language or communication. I should know cuz I am one of them.

And often in these "shows" for the public, a deaf child would be given the information ahead of time so that they could answer the questions. They would also sign to the kids and then have them just use their voices to answer because lipreading is so difficult.
 
Back then Deaf people would learn to read and write several languages. They didn't have "4th grade reading levels". They were well educated. I have read some of Clerc's writings, he was a brillant man.

yea? Wish it was like that for us today..I know my literacy skills suffered somewhat by being in an oral-only environment 24/7 but what really suffered were my social and emotional skils. Did I have the same rights as my hearing peers to a full and appropriate education growing up? The answer is an obvious no.
 
And back in the year of 1800 no deaf were capable to speak until A.G. Bell stepped in, then in 1920 sign language were dropped. Forty years later a study showed that deaf education using mostly oral methods, then the new philosophy total communication came in, sign language came back, then became difficult for some deaf children using sign language and English the same time. Like one member here stated that ASL was used in a total communication program, when ASL has its own grammar and it's own set of rule. You cannot mix ASL with English. It's impossible, and you know it. :)


Where is your source or info to support that claim?
 
And often in these "shows" for the public, a deaf child would be given the information ahead of time so that they could answer the questions. They would also sign to the kids and then have them just use their voices to answer because lipreading is so difficult.

I wonder if I was played to put on one of those "shows"? I wouldnt be surprised.
 
Thae last statement is another big turn off for me about TC programs..that the staff do not sign at all times
In the TC I was in, the teacher signed the entire time, never once she did not signed, and I also had an interpreter with me at all times in the regular classroom with the hearing peers. :)

faire_jour said:
n our local TC classes, a teacher would SIM-COM ASL signs in English word order. They would speak everything and sign what they could. For example, in preschool the teacher would say "Let's all go get our coats, line up, and go outside", and she would sign COAT, LINE, and OUTSIDE. Not a good ASL model at all.

That's what ASL mode of sign language is, Once again, it has it's own grammar and it's own set of rules. Do your research on ASL. In my TC class, they use the sign of SEE. (Sign Exact English). If the teacher says, "Let's all get our coats, line up and go outside" She would sign word by word just like how she says it in English. Your TC class was not the same as mine. That might be where the problem lies. :)
 
American Sign Lanaguge (ASL)

American Sign Language (ASL)

A "grammar" is a set of rules for using a language. These rules guide users in the correct speaking or signing of a language.

Who decides what is correct and incorrect grammar?

The grammar of a language is decided by the group of people who use the language. New grammar rules come into existence when enough members of the group have spoken (signed) their language a particular way often enough and long enough that it would seem odd to speak the language in some other way.

If you don't want to seem odd to others in your group, you've got to speak (sign) a language according to the rules which have been developed by the community which uses the language.

American Sign Language is tied to the Deaf Community. We use our language in a certain way. That "certain way" is what constitutes ASL grammar.

American Sign Language has its own grammar system, separate from that of English.

What this means is ASL grammar has its own rules for phonology, morphology, syntax, and pragmatics
 
In the TC I was in, the teacher signed the entire time, never once she did not signed, and I also had an interpreter with me at all times in the regular classroom with the hearing peers. :)



That's what ASL mode of sign language is, Once again, it has it's own grammar and it's own set of rules. Do your research on ASL. In my TC class, they use the sign of SEE. (Sign Exact English). If the teacher says, "Let's all get our coats, line up and go outside" She would sign word by word just like how she says it in English. Your TC class was not the same as mine. That might be where the problem lies. :)

That's where I am confused..it sounds like u were mainstreamed full time with an terp and meet with a deaf ed teacher on an one-on-one basis? Or did u go to a class where there was a teacher signing and you had an interpreter there also?
 
Ah! In the days of Laurent Clerc, they didn't called it Bi-Bi education but that is what it was. I would love to see those literacy scores from that time. Where do they keep those records???

No, they didnt call it Bi-Bi because back then, I dont even think the concept of different cultures/languages was recognized. I think cultural studies started in the late 20th century.
 
No, they didnt call it Bi-Bi because back then, I dont even think the concept of different cultures/languages was recognized. I think cultural studies started in the late 20th century.

I believe you're correct about that.
 
That's where I am confused..it sounds like u were mainstreamed full time with an terp and meet with a deaf ed teacher on an one-on-one basis? Or did u go to a class where there was a teacher signing and you had an interpreter there also?

I've met with a hearing teacher that signed in SEE in a small-group setting special education classroom with a few deaf students during the first period course then was placed in mainstream with an interpreter for the rest school day. Only a very few of us were placed in the mainstreamed classrooms. :)
 
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