Feelings on how a Deaf child should be taught

[jillio]

Ahh ok..thanks for clarifying. True too about other systems.

If one is fluent in ASL, one should not have a problem with the Rochester Method, as it is nothing more than fingerspelling every word. Likewise with SEE. If one is fluent in ASL, one should not have difficulty in picking up the additions required to convert to SEE. After all, both methods are based on ASL. And, how many times have we been told that CS is so easily learned that it only requires a few hours to learn what is needed to know to use the system effectively? I don't see fluency as posing a huge obstacle if one is already fluent in ASL.

And, just a reminder to all, this is not the CI forum. It is the education forum. Likewise, the title uses the cultural designation of deaf. Therefore, cultural considerations should be taken into account in the discussion. If one has no experience with Deaf individuals, then one should not be making assumptions regarding what is best for them.

 

[rick48]

Since my name was mentioned I thought I would respond. I never said ALL kids who benefit from hearing aids or CIs learn to speak well--some do and some don't, that is definitely true. I will never assume ALL this or that--there are too many variables. Sadly, there are some people who DO speak in terms of ALL--or at least MOST--I have met a lot of people who overgeneralize when it comes to hearing loss and deafness. People who seem to have no problem hearing or speaking saying ALL deaf people can do that--people who cannot hear anything and do not speak at all saying ALL deaf people are like that--too much overgeneralizing on both sides. As far as the hearing and speaking, I have met deaf people who do or do not do these things on many different levels. I have met deaf people who seem to hear EVERYTHING--whispers, quiet sounds, etc.--some refer to their "bionic ears" and it is amazing what they can hear. These people often, but not always, have wonderful speech skills because they hear so well. AND--I have met deaf people who hear "okay or fairly well"--sometimes how well they hear reflects on how well they speak, sometimes not. If you cannot hear yourself speak, it is hard to monitor how your voice sounds--some may perceive it very differently than others who are listening to them speak. AND--I have met deaf people who do not hear anything, or hear very little--it is completely understandable that those who cannot hear much speech also cannot produce it very well. Having said all of that, there are still many exceptions and many variations--even some who hear very well do not always have excellent speech. AND--there may be some who hear very little who somehow manage to produce good speech anyway--I'm not sure how except maybe if they are late deafened. This comment is only in reference to the part about some people who hear well with hearing aids or CIs still not being able to speak very well--yes, I agree--some do not--and some do. I never said that ALL people who are "orally educated" have the same results--not every person will have "clear speech or perfect language"--some, maybe many, will not. BUT--people also should not assume that ALL deaf/hh kids hear nothing and cannot obtain excellent hearing and speech. Some have overgeneralized--some have said that it almost impossible for deaf/hh kids to hear well enough to learn to speak well in a natural way by listening through their hearing aids or CIs. Some have assumed that, because THEY do not hear that well that ALL deaf/hh people do not. Some have assumed that, because THEY do not hear well enough to pick up enough of speech through listening, that ALL deaf/hh people cannot. While it is true that there will be deaf/hh people who do not hear very well and therefore do not speak very well, it is also true that some do. I, for one, do not overgeneralize--some can/will/do and some can't/won't/don't--it is never an all or nothing case.

Deborah,

I know you never made those statements and neither have I. In fact, no one on this forum has ever made such statements. However, if you stay around here long enough you will soon realize that there are a few people who routinely either misinterpret your posts or attribute statements and positions to you that you never made or held. You can either spend your time explaining ad nauseum that you never made such a statement or held such a belief but it is best to just ignore them for they are only interested in espousing an agenda.
Rick

 

[jillio]

True, Deborah. And the agenda is as follows:

Equal access to education for ALL deaf/hoh children.

Equal access to employment opportunity for ALL deaf/hoh adults.

Respect fpr those who choose manual commiunication as their primary means of communication.

Promotion of both speech and sign in the pursuit of the above goals.

Eradication of audism, especially when it involves the hearing population making decisions about what is presumed to be best for the deaf population.

Empowerment of ALL deaf individuals to become self determining.

 

[shel90]

True, Deborah. And the agenda is as follows:

Equal access to education for ALL deaf/hoh children.

Equal access to employment opportunity for ALL deaf/hoh adults.

Respect fpr those who choose manual commiunication as their primary means of communication.

Promotion of both speech and sign in the pursuit of the above goals.

Eradication of audism, especially when it involves the hearing population making decisions about what is presumed to be best for the deaf population.

Empowerment of ALL deaf individuals to become self determining.

So true..enuf of this audst BS that keeps many deaf people from achieving to their fullest.

 

[Deborah]

True, Deborah. And the agenda is as follows:

Equal access to education for ALL deaf/hoh children.

Equal access to employment opportunity for ALL deaf/hoh adults.

Respect fpr those who choose manual commiunication as their primary means of communication.

Promotion of both speech and sign in the pursuit of the above goals.

Eradication of audism, especially when it involves the hearing population making decisions about what is presumed to be best for the deaf population.

Empowerment of ALL deaf individuals to become self determining.

As long as the "agenda" allows people like my daughter to be accepted into BOTH the hearing world and Deaf world, then all is well. As long as the hearing world accepts her and she can continue to communicate in spoken English, then all is well. As long as the Deaf world accepts her and she can learn to communicate through ASL (or SEE?), then all is well. As long as she is not rejected by one of these two groups simply because she chooses to be a part of both groups--as long as neither group makes her choose one or the other instead of being part of both--then all is well. THAT is a good agenda to have--my daughter has the right to be who she is, and she shouldn't be made to feel that she should be different by either group. I stand by THAT kind of agenda--freedom and choices without judgment and bias--that would be a GREAT agenda!

 

[jillio]

As long as the "agenda" allows people like my daughter to be accepted into BOTH the hearing world and Deaf world, then all is well. As long as the hearing world accepts her and she can continue to communicate in spoken English, then all is well. As long as the Deaf world accepts her and she can learn to communicate through ASL (or SEE?), then all is well. As long as she is not rejected by one of these two groups simply because she chooses to be a part of both groups--as long as neither group makes her choose one or the other instead of being part of both--then all is well. THAT is a good agenda to have--my daughter has the right to be who she is, and she shouldn't be made to feel that she should be different by either group. I stand by THAT kind of agenda--freedom and choices without judgment and bias--that would be a GREAT agenda!

In my 22 years of experience, it is not the deaf community that forces the choice. More often, the rejection (often quite subtle, and mostly socially inspired) comes from the hearing community. Many, many of the experiences related on this board by deaf/Deaf individuals support that.

My own son has excellent speech skills despite being severe to profoundly deaf...much the same as Shel. He is also fluent in ASL, and has been using sign since he was a baby. The deaf community has never, ever held his speech skills against him. What the deaf community will reject is attitude of superiority by those who have managed to develop good speech skills, however. And I stand by their right to reject that attitude.

However, his speech skills have quite often led to discrimination within the hearing community, through accusations that he "hears more than he pretends to", or that he can't possibly need a terp because he speaks well. Likewise, because he speaks with a "deaf accent", he has been accused by the hearing community of being MR, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

One is never rejected by the deaf community for choosing to be a part of both hearing and deaf worlds. Since 95% of all deaf children are born tohearing parents, the majority of deaf children are mainstreamed at some point in time, and the world of work requires interaction with the hearing world, very, very few deaf/Deaf individuals live exclusively in the deaf world. Life requires that they be a part of both worlds. One is only rejected by the deaf community for attitudes of superiority by the oral only individuals, and for attitudes of paternalism. At least, that has been my experience, and I have interacted extensively with the deaf community for 22 years now.

That is exactly the agenda that I subscribe to as a counselor and advocate (and parent of a deaf son), and the agenda that shel, as an educator subscribes to. Likewise, you will be hard pressed to find a single deaf member of this forum that would tell you they did not support such an agenda 100%.

I'm certain, if you approach the deaf community in the spirit of them having something to teach both you and your daughter your experience will be every bit as positive as mine has been.

 

[loml]

loml,

So true, so true but why stop there:

People who do not have cochlear implants for either themselves or for their children shouldnt make assumptions nor form opinions about cochlear implants. When they do, incorrect assumptions are too often made.


Rick

Agreed.

 

[shel90]

As long as the "agenda" allows people like my daughter to be accepted into BOTH the hearing world and Deaf world, then all is well. As long as the hearing world accepts her and she can continue to communicate in spoken English, then all is well. As long as the Deaf world accepts her and she can learn to communicate through ASL (or SEE?), then all is well. As long as she is not rejected by one of these two groups simply because she chooses to be a part of both groups--as long as neither group makes her choose one or the other instead of being part of both--then all is well. THAT is a good agenda to have--my daughter has the right to be who she is, and she shouldn't be made to feel that she should be different by either group. I stand by THAT kind of agenda--freedom and choices without judgment and bias--that would be a GREAT agenda!

And that is my personal and professional belief..that all deaf children should be accepted in both worlds not one or the other. I dont see anything wrong with your post and it makes perfect sense.

I did not fit in either worlds growing up.. was definitely not a great place to be in. Why would anyone want that for deaf children is beyond me.

 

[August]

deaf children should be blindfolded and tied to a chair and told to raise their hand every time their instructor makes a noise.

every time they get it wrong, they get whipped. or waterboarded.

IT'S TIME TO KNOCK OFF THIS LITTLE DEAF CHARADE COME ON GUYS.













....










KIDDING!


(please don't kill me)

 

[Deborah]

One is only rejected by the deaf community for attitudes of superiority by the oral only individuals, and for attitudes of paternalism.

Having the attitude of superiority and/or paternalism will get people rejected in MANY realms of society--it is a HUGE "turn off" socially and should be avoided at all costs, of course. I am currently dealing with people who have that attitude in the religious realm of my life. Basically, the church that I grew up in seems to have a "we are right and everyone else is wrong" attitude--oh, please--that turns the stomach! And, there is a huge paternalistic factor going on, too--older men as leaders and everyone else is suppose to listen to them--they are the "wise elders" who know what is best for everyone--they lead and everyone else follows--and everyone under them (especially women) are looked down on as "underlings" who need guidance--yes, THAT is an AWFUL attitude to have--I left that church years ago because I finally "got it"--I finally opened my eyes to the ridiculously biased and unfair attitudes in the church's hierarchy--but I still am dealing with the repercussions of leaving because much of my family is still in that church(the same denomination, not the same congregation). Anyway--you will find absolutely no attitude of superiority or paternalism on my part or my daughter's part, that's for sure. As women, we refuse to put up with that kind of attitude, whether in religion, education, or society as a whole. Our experience has been that the older people in our former church and in our family still DO have that attitude, and the younger people (under 70) do not. This is not always the case, though. Life has changed so much in America, especially over the last 50 years or so--some people live like it is still pre-civil rights, pre-women's rights, pre-ADA rights--they better get with the program! Obviously, I cannot stand that kind of attitude--I cannot stand people who act superior or paternal--I agree, that attitude breeds nothing but bad karma. Anyone who has that kind of attitude will be, and should be, rejected by many factions of society. Peace, love, happiness, tolerance, acceptance, diversity--those are the RIGHT attitudes. Have a wonderful day!

 

[jillio]

Having the attitude of superiority and/or paternalism will get people rejected in MANY realms of society--it is a HUGE "turn off" socially and should be avoided at all costs, of course. I am currently dealing with people who have that attitude in the religious realm of my life. Basically, the church that I grew up in seems to have a "we are right and everyone else is wrong" attitude--oh, please--that turns the stomach! And, there is a huge paternalistic factor going on, too--older men as leaders and everyone else is suppose to listen to them--they are the "wise elders" who know what is best for everyone--they lead and everyone else follows--and everyone under them (especially women) are looked down on as "underlings" who need guidance--yes, THAT is an AWFUL attitude to have--I left that church years ago because I finally "got it"--I finally opened my eyes to the ridiculously biased and unfair attitudes in the church's hierarchy--but I still am dealing with the repercussions of leaving because much of my family is still in that church(the same denomination, not the same congregation). Anyway--you will find absolutely no attitude of superiority or paternalism on my part or my daughter's part, that's for sure. As women, we refuse to put up with that kind of attitude, whether in religion, education, or society as a whole. Our experience has been that the older people in our former church and in our family still DO have that attitude, and the younger people (under 70) do not. This is not always the case, though. Life has changed so much in America, especially over the last 50 years or so--some people live like it is still pre-civil rights, pre-women's rights, pre-ADA rights--they better get with the program! Obviously, I cannot stand that kind of attitude--I cannot stand people who act superior or paternal--I agree, that attitude breeds nothing but bad karma. Anyone who has that kind of attitude will be, and should be, rejected by many factions of society. Peace, love, happiness, tolerance, acceptance, diversity--those are the RIGHT attitudes. Have a wonderful day!

I didn't mean to suggest in any way that you were approaching the community with an atitude of superiority or paternalism. I do hope that you didn't think I was. If so, I do apologize.

And you are correct. Such an attitude will cause problems in any realm. It is unfortunate, indeed, that many cannot see that, and blame the deaf community for rejecting them and fail to see that it is their own attitude causing the problems with acceptance. Many, many times I have seen the deaf community blamed for a lack of acceptance of the individual, when actually, that individual no doubt has problems interacting with any group on any level, and the problem does not lie within the community, but within the individual. I just wanted to confirm that the deaf community is not as closed off to hearing individuals, or deaf individuals with oral skills, or individuals with CI as some would have us believe. As Shel stated earlier, my experience has been very positive on the whole, and my son's experience has certainly been positive on the whole. I firmly believe that yours and your daughter's will, too. I hope that you enjoy the journey as much as I have. I know that affilliation with the deaf community has enriched my life in untold ways.

 

[faire_jour]

I agree with Jillio (of course). I know tons of people in the Deaf community who can speak, some with CI's and even a few parents with children they implanted at a young age. I have never seen anyone turned away because they could speak or because they use aids or an implant. My daughter attends a bi-bi school for the Deaf and wears hearing aids and gets speech lessons. There are other kids there with implants. No one judges another for their ability to speak or their inability.
That being said, I have encountered a few bad apples. I had a Deaf mentor (a tutor for ASL through our early intervention) and he though he was smarter and better educated than the average Deaf adult because he could speak. He used to make fun of my ASL professor because my professor grew up using ASL and went to a resedential school. (By the way he was 19 and my professor had a Master's degree...hmmm, I wonder who has a better education!)THAT is the kind of behavior that will get hated in the Deaf community. It wasn't his oral skill, it was audist attitude.

 

[shel90]

I agree with Jillio (of course). I know tons of people in the Deaf community who can speak, some with CI's and even a few parents with children they implanted at a young age. I have never seen anyone turned away because they could speak or because they use aids or an implant. My daughter attends a bi-bi school for the Deaf and wears hearing aids and gets speech lessons. There are other kids there with implants. No one judges another for their ability to speak or their inability.
That being said, I have encountered a few bad apples. I had a Deaf mentor (a tutor for ASL through our early intervention) and he though he was smarter and better educated than the average Deaf adult because he could speak. He used to make fun of my ASL professor because my professor grew up using ASL and went to a resedential school. (By the way he was 19 and my professor had a Master's degree...hmmm, I wonder who has a better education!)THAT is the kind of behavior that will get hated in the Deaf community. It wasn't his oral skill, it was audist attitude.

Yep and the problem is that those people with the audists attitudes complain and cry about not being accepted in the Deaf community. It goes both ways.

 

[deafbajagal]

^^^ True.

 

[Pinky]

My parent found it out. I was deaf. My old doctor sent us to other city to go Pre School for Hearing impaired. My old doctor told my parent to not use a sign language to communicate with me. I was so fit and angry. I was very smart when I was 2. I was a mischief and hide many things somewhere to get my mom's attention. My mom wanted to communicate with me so badly.

I moved to other city. I was first time to attend pre school when I was 3. I was first time to learn sign lannguages with SEE not ASL. I wore 2 hearing aids. I can't speak with oral because of my deaf is 90% and had a crooked teeth. I was so frustrated to learn speak. My old teacher grabbed my cheek to attention at read the lips. She was so mean! I transfered to Deaf School when I was 10. I was first time to learn ASL so fast.

For my future kids if they are deaf or hard of hearing. I would rather for them to use speak and sign both if they want to experience. I don't want to force them where they are go to school. I want my future kids to get best education. I prefer to send them to Private school.

 

[Buffalo]

I want my future kids to get best education. I prefer to send them to Private school.

Private school as in my alma mater, St. Rita in Cincinnati, Ohio???

 

[Pinky]

Private school as in my alma mater, St. Rita in Cincinnati, Ohio???

Yeah All Deaf School are private schools. And other hearing school are private too. It's not a public school. Private school are for special, best sports, scholarships, church and other.

My friends attended to St. Rita School for Deaf.

 

[deafdyke]

the thing is, that mainstream schools are just too "one size fits all" The education there is mostly targeted towards the Mythical Average Learner. Also, overall our schools are so crappy. I mean sure there's some bright spots BUT, overall our schools are just BEYOND crappy. Why is it that suddenly they are some sort of wonderful place for dhh students?
I think I'd take it on a case by case basis. I do not think that kneejerk mainstreaming should be the norm. It's too fucking easy for students to fall through the cracks!

 

[shel90]

the thing is, that mainstream schools are just too "one size fits all" The education there is mostly targeted towards the Mythical Average Learner. Also, overall our schools are so crappy. I mean sure there's some bright spots BUT, overall our schools are just BEYOND crappy. Why is it that suddenly they are some sort of wonderful place for dhh students?
I think I'd take it on a case by case basis. I do not think that kneejerk mainstreaming should be the norm. It's too fucking easy for students to fall through the cracks!

Yea, think about it...a classroom full of about 35 plus kids with one teacher..it would just become too easy for the teacher to treat all the kids as one rather than as individuals.

While at the Deaf schools or private schools, classes are much smaller and each child is treated as an individual.

My hearing daughter got low grades on her last report card. She is very smart and everything but she does not do well in large classes and we have tried with the public schools to get her needs met. They said unless she is identified as having a disability, there is not much they can do. According to them, it is my daughter's responsibility to keep up with the classes but she is and has always been...a slow learner. That's just her pace of learning..it is frustrating cuz I cant afford a private school. I wish I can send her to the Deaf school. arrgghhhh!

 

[jillio]

Yea, think about it...a classroom full of about 35 plus kids with one teacher..it would just become too easy for the teacher to treat all the kids as one rather than as individuals.

While at the Deaf schools or private schools, classes are much smaller and each child is treated as an individual.

My hearing daughter got low grades on her last report card. She is very smart and everything but she does not do well in large classes and we have tried with the public schools to get her needs met. They said unless she is identified as having a disability, there is not much they can do. According to them, it is my daughter's responsibility to keep up with the classes but she is and has always been...a slow learner. That's just her pace of learning..it is frustrating cuz I cant afford a private school. I wish I can send her to the Deaf school. arrgghhhh!

That would be the perfect solution. In a perfect world, Bi-Bi programs would include KODAs and sibs of deaf students. But change is such a slow process that I guess we have to take it one step at a time!