Experiences with my daughter.

[InTheGenes]

Hmmm, why the heck do you feel the need to analyse (sp?) me. Really it's ok but quite needless. I am who and what I am. If I choose to join a forum discussing CI issues since they do effect me personally it is just for that reason.

Sorry if it seemed like I was analyzing you, that wasn't my intent. I was more addressing the motivation that brings/brought you to this forum (both the REAL motivation, as well as your stated motivation, which I happen to believe aren't quite in synch with one another), which is quite germane to this particular argument. Whether or not you're in denial about those reasons is your issue to deal with (if you choose to), not mine. I was simply agreeing with what Bear said in her original post. You disagree, and that's cool; you're entitled.

Thanks for the well wishes re: my mid-terms!

 

[jillio]

Pragmatically accepting who and what you are, and how you got there is all well and good... but I, too, think there's a grain of truth in what Bear said about you reaching out to other members of the deaf (small "d"; by your own admission, you don't embrace Deaf culture) community, to learn from the experiences of people who share(d) a common experience with you, as well as to learn from those who lived a different life than you.

BTW, Bear: Great post!

Random thought, in closing: in my ASL and Deaf studies of the past few years, I've been told that one of the defining characteristics of Deaf culture is the embracing of being Deaf, embracing sign language, etc. I find myself wondering, given the advent of CI technology, if a place might not NEED to be made at the table for CI recipients who either choose or DON'T choose to learn sign. It's a strange analogy, I know, but it's the first thing that popped into my head: it's almost like Judaism, where there are Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, Reform Jews, Jews for Jesus, etc. At the end of the day, despite their differences, they're all still Jewish. At the end of the day, whether a deaf person wears HAs, is implanted with a CI, uses ASL only, etc... they're all still deaf.

LOL, I'm exhausted (it's mid-terms time, and I've also been dealing with a very ill parent), so if I don't make any sense, feel free to ignore me!

I do believe that you are correct....Deaf Culture is undergoing changes as is eveidenced by the posts we are seeing here, by the changes in educational environments, and by the greater acceptance of CI within the deaf/Deaf communities. All cultures change as environments and influences change; some change is directed, some is undirected, but the change is inevitable. However, change is much more beneficial when it is allowed to happen, rather than being forced to happen. If the hearing community wants the Deaf community to show greater acceptance for CI, and for CI implantees, then they must give a little and show greater acceptance for the values that the Deaf community is unwilling to sacrifice: the defining characteristic of their language.

 

[Cheri]

To find what someone has done to take care of a problem with their CI is nice..

Please clarify what you meant by "to find what someone has done to take care of a problem with their CI?" You mean having troubling with picking up sounds with their cochlear implant or anything general related to the cochlear implant itself? I just wanted to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

[jillio]

Whatever ....

the thing with Lotte is she does hear. (to stay on topic) She hears very well and evidently she processes the sounds more like normally developing kids. She is in effect very close to being 'pre lingal' as it were since she was given her implants at such and early age. An age where some 'normal' kids experience delays to. (my granddaughter seems to be delayed )

Actually, Lotte is prelingual. And, language acquisition begins at birth. The time between birth and implantation were spent as deaf. By cloggy's own admission, Lotte is language delayed. At the age of 4, those delays may not be causing tremendous problems. However, those problems magnify with age. And the very fact that a child who is implanted has to be taught to hear carries trememdous implications not just for langauge acquisition use, but also for other cognitive development.

She is able to take advantage of the rapid learning of sounds and speech because of her age.

While she is indeed at an advantage in that learning occurs very rapidly at certain ages, she is still having to be taught what is, in hearing children not taught, but acquired.

Is it normal? I believe you like to bring that up. Well to you it would not be normal....to her it is. To me the sounds are exactly as I remember them, plus all the ones I have to figure out when I hear them. To her the sounds will be normal, because the sounds through her implant are all she knows, each noise will have it's own slot in her memory. She will continue to learn what different sounds are because the processors to pick up those sounds. She seems to be able to do something I have alot of trouble doing and that's not be excessivly desturbed by having every little noise amplyfied. (thank God for programming options) The processors now are quite capable of spanning a large number for frequencies. The software is developed to use in different situations. They programmers seem to work hard to address issues that wearers ask to have fixed. The do a great job. Todays CI is nothing like the first one that came out.

Here again is where the difference lies. Lotte has to use cognitive faculties to make sounds meaningful; once again, she has to learn to interpret those sounds as meaningful. This is something that a child begins to do at birth, especially with language. A child is born with the innate capacity to process and interpret as meaningful, all sounds produced in all languages. As that child begins to develop, and this is quite early int he developmental process, he/she discriminates only those sound that are included in the native langauge, and looses the cpapacity to find as meaningful, sounds that are produced in langauges not included in the environment. To put it simply, an American child has the capapcity to find meaning in Chinese, however, without being exposed tothe sounds that are meaningful to a Chinese speaking person, they loose the ability to acquire those sounds as part of theose that are included as meaningful from environmental exposure. This is the foundation on which language acquisition is built. A child that does not experience sound from birth, must be taught this process. It is the natural exposure to language that is so critical, and if it does not occur, delays will be evident. If that same child is exposed to sign, they will interpret as meaning those visual representations as meaningful int he same way that a hearing child learns to discriminate those sounds that are meaningful given their specific environment.
As for deaf identity. As someone said she will develope her own identity, perhaps deaf, perhaps hearing or perhaps hmmm, cyborg. Life is full of challenges to everyone and no one will react in the same way. Lotte has much time to decide where she is going and the support of her family to help her get there.. And I'm sure she will.

The process of identity develop, again, is somethign that begins quite early inthe child's development. It is not something that begins in the adolexcent years. The adolescent years are simply when the difficulties of not having completed the developmetnal stage at an age apporpriate time and in a facclitative way begin to manifest.
Then regarding the issue of parents un knowingly pushing for a certain choice. I'm sure it happens. But then again it's also well known that people in social services and phycologists etc. etc. also tend to lead people to believe things about themselves that really aren't the actual problem. Depressed memories. Kids being lead to believe they were in a day care where they were exposed to molestation and witchcraft. and even kids who have been convinced by peers that they really don't like their life as it is. and so on and so on.
Youa re very mistaken regarding your assessments of the practice of psychology. While there are unethical therapists out there, just as there are unethical practitioners in every profession, you are lumping clinical psychology in with all practices. Clinical psychology is but one division of the field. There is also cognitive, social, experimental, educational, developmental, biological, and neuropsychology. These divisions do not engage in psychotherapy. As far as clinical psychology is concerned, a client presents with problems in livbing and adjustment that they are incapable of overcoming ontheir own. Most often this is because the client is unable to recognize patterns of behavior, and the reasons that these patterns of behavior have become ingrained in the individual. So the clinician does not create the behavior, but simply helps the client touncover the reasons for the behaviors. And, it is suppressed memories, not depressed memories. No one has ever consulted a psychologist because they are happy with their life, or because they are able to solve their problems on
their own.

 

[jillio]

I don't believe that's true at all. In therapy, part of dealing with the problems a person is experiencing in their life is CONFRONTING those problems, and confronting the issues of the past. This is usually NOT a comfortable experience... but repressing "depressive memories" isn't DEALING with them, it's just compartmentalizing them, sometimes allowing people to "move on", as you say. The problem is, for many people, that only works for so long.

As for implanting false memores of molestation and witchcraft... that's hogwash. Maybe that's happened SOMEWHERE in the world, but I assure you, that is NOT standard practice. That's about as silly an argument as the folks who claim that a plane didn't hit the Pentagon on 9/11 and/or that the Twin Towers were brought down by controlled demolition. wave: Cloggy!)

I'm not a therapist, I don't even play one on TV, and I don't even GO to one... but I have a great deal of respect for the profession.

Exactly. There are also cases of physicians who do not practice medicine in an ethical manner; however that is hardly cause for rejecting the practice o medicane as a whole. And, unethical therapists, as unethical physicans, genreallydo not remain in practice for long. Both fields monitor their practioners, and revoke licenses for unethical practices.

 

[jillio]

Sorry if it seemed like I was analyzing you, that wasn't my intent. I was more addressing the motivation that brings/brought you to this forum (both the REAL motivation, as well as your stated motivation, which I happen to believe aren't quite in synch with one another), which is quite germane to this particular argument. Whether or not you're in denial about those reasons is your issue to deal with (if you choose to), not mine. I was simply agreeing with what Bear said in her original post. You disagree, and that's cool; you're entitled.

Thanks for the well wishes re: my mid-terms!

You weren't analyzing...no official diagnosis or plan of treatment. What you were doing was pointing out incongruencies in action and word that are obvious. Failure to recognize these incongruencies are usually the source of the problem.

 

[loml]

Done like dinner

One does not feel cuing in order to receive the message
One does not touch the person to whom the message is being communicated. In order for it to be tactile, the sense of touch would be necessary in the receiver of the message, not just the sender. Communication is dyadic. So, sorry, but you are incorrect. CS is not tactile. Why do you think the difference is qualified in signing and tactile signing? They are two different modes. One is not tactile, one is. CS is non-tactile.

CS is tactile system, the sense of touch is involved. Cueing is not signing, nor should there be any comparisons drawn.

 

[GarnetTigerMom]

that a wonderful story that very intersting. I have CI too. But different one from the kind your daughter wears. I use med-el CI and I wear it almost all the time. I love listening to music and I got to hear my baby first cry when she was born and I love hearing my daughter cooing at me and laughing, crying and picking all kinds of sounds. I do take it off when I go bed. But sometimes I take it off when I also want my silent back to the world I was so used to it. It just like wearing a hearing aid the same way for me. When I take it off I am still deaf. But I have never stop using ASL. It still part of me of who I am. ASL is always remain with me no matter what.

 

[loml]

BUT what about for the Deaf person < Learning English is NOT easy, so how can you view this is inclusive when the skills required are uneven for both sides of this 'hypothetical communicative equation' ???

Grummer - Do you have a clear understanding of what the system of Cued Speech is and how/why it works for deaf children. From the question you have possed, I suspect not. Would you like some links to material regarding CS? I would be pleased to share information with you. Perhaps there is a cueing group near you and you can experience the system first hand, which is undoubtedly the very best way to learn CS. I would be happy to help you locate a group.

 

[jillio]

CS is tactile system, the sense of touch is involved. Cueing is not signing, nor should there be any comparisons drawn.

Once again, you have been unable to explain how CS is a tactile system. The sense of touch is not involved in either sending or receiving the message. It is a manual system designed to remove the ambiguity from speech reading.

No it is not signing, but it is a manual system designed to make those phonemes and morphemes that are not easily read visable. Therefore, it is a visual/manual system. The sense of touch is not involved in any way shape or form. However, as it is a visual/manual system, it is more comparable to other visual systems than it is comparable to a tactile system. In order for CS to be classified as a tactile system, the message would have to be conveyed through the sense of touch as in braille or tactile signing. Continuing to insist that CS is a tactile system is simply evidence of your lack of knowledge regarding not jsut CS, but of all communication systems and the terminology used to classify them.

 

[loml]

A Dead Horse

Once again, you have been unable to explain how CS is a tactile system. The sense of touch is not involved in either sending or receiving the message. It is a manual system designed to remove the ambiguity from speech reading.

No it is not signing, but it is a manual system designed to make those phonemes and morphemes that are not easily read visable. Therefore, it is a visual/manual system. The sense of touch is not involved in any way shape or form. However, as it is a visual/manual system, it is more comparable to other visual systems than it is comparable to a tactile system. In order for CS to be classified as a tactile system, the message would have to be conveyed through the sense of touch as in braille or tactile signing. Continuing to insist that CS is a tactile system is simply evidence of your lack of knowledge regarding not jsut CS, but of all communication systems and the terminology used to classify them.

JT - You just go on believing what you do. Your statements continue to show me your ignorance regarding CS. Quite frankly your loss.

*click*

 

[jillio]

JT - You just go on believing what you do. Your statements continue to show me your ignorance regarding CS. Quite frankly your loss.

*click*

Who is JT? And, how is it that CS is a tactile system? You keep avoiding the question. And I agree....CS is a dead horse. Why do you keep beating it? The fact is, you are posting incorrect information regarding the categorization of the system. If you cannot support the fact that you state that CS is tactile with eveidence of such, you need to stop stating such.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Yes it has do with literacy skill...

Oh no Liebling, it doesn't - there are many hearing people who hear and speak very well yet are illiterate.

To make you understand better - you are British living in Germany. How do you keep yourself away from German language if German is everywhere? or German people?

Same with hearing children of deaf parents - unless they are living in hermetically closed deaf enclave, they live in hearing enviroment.

Fuzzy

 

[jillio]

Oh no Liebling, it doesn't - there are many hearing people who hear and speak very well yet are illiterate.

To make you understand better - you are British living in Germany. How do you keep yourself away from German language if German is everywhere? or German people?

Same with hearing children of deaf parents - unless they are living in hermetically closed deaf enclave, they live in hearing enviroment.

Fuzzy

There are any number of causes of illiteracy in the hearing population. However, linguistic deprivation is not one of them. We are discussing the ways in which linguistic deprivation creates lowered literacy rates int he deaf population in the absence of the other variables that can be attributed to the hearing population.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

There are any number of causes of illiteracy in the hearing population. However, linguistic deprivation is not one of them. We are discussing the ways in which linguistic deprivation creates lowered literacy rates int he deaf population in the absence of the other variables that can be attributed to the hearing population.

May I respectfully remind you - my question to LIEBLING was- how do you keep a hearing child away from hearing enviroment?

It has nothing to do with literacy, illiteracy, langauge development, or deaf population, or "other variables".

Fuzzy

 

[jillio]

May I respectfully remind you - my question to LIEBLING was- how do you keep a hearing child away from hearing enviroment?

It has nothing to do with literacy, illiteracy, langauge development, or deaf population, or "other variables".

Fuzzy

And may I respectfully remind you, I was supporting Liebling's point.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Thanks, but I preffer to hear from LIEBLING on this particular issue, not you - with due respect....
also, once again - I'd rather stick to the subject, which is: "how do you keep..... away from.....".

Fuzzy

 

[jag]

I beleive that you know that some parents homeschool their children without show them to real world..., social skill, etc but themselves... want them read the bible all the time with no radio, TV, etc... The children will grow up to know about only bibles...
...

Actually while home schoolers may teach their children to live by the Bible not all do and there are actually many home schoolers who's children are very active in groups with other children who are home schooled. While I don't home school and never did I do find the above statement to be rather uninformed, an possibly a subtle attempt to insult or demean people who choose to live and believe things differently then you.

Some deaf parents who want hearing children to be like them and take radio, TV, computer etc away and make them deaf and refuse to let hearing children to involve hearing eviornment.... it make them become deaf person... They don't know that they are hearing

Some hearing parents who want deaf children to be like them and train them to hear the sound development and neglect to learn and involve their deaf children's world... it make them become hearing person... They don't know they are deaf

which is not right...

...

A child with normal hearing can never really not hear. THey will. But I will agree they could possibly be so immersed in the DEaf world by deaf parents that their verbal language would suffer. But they still hear. But yes I will admit they can be indoctrinated into believing the Deaf world is all there is.

A child who is deaf will always be aware of what he/she misses. Even when they really like living in the hearing world. Not all require alot of contact with other deaf people. But they always are aware that they are deaf. (even when they do well with HA's or Ci's)

For me...

I as deaf parent have radio, TV, computer etc in household because I know my children are hearing. I send them to child-minder to develop their speech before they goes their first kindergarden when they were 3 years old because I know they are hearing. I develop their reading and writing skill because the literacy skill is for me a mainly important. I use sign language because I want my children know what I am...

I as hearing parent who have anything in the house for disabilty child and learn to know where my disabitly child come from and learn their development and let them involve with other children that my child will know that she/he is not alone... including help them to develop reading and writing skill as well...

OK. thanks for clearing things up.

Just as not all deaf parents are as involved as you, so to all hearing parents aren't as involved. Life isn't fair, it's really to bad many parents don't also help their children deal with that.

 

[jag]

Please clarify what you meant by "to find what someone has done to take care of a problem with their CI?" You mean having troubling with picking up sounds with their cochlear implant or anything general related to the cochlear implant itself? I just wanted to make sure I'm understanding you.

Ok. I see my fingers probably moved slower then my brain.

Anyway I enjoy talking to fellow Ci'ers to see what they have done to over come problems they may have had. Or even to get ideas on how to get the most out of the processer. Did you know that if you bump the sensitivity down on the freedom processer it's an easier/quicker way to lower the vol. then to try lowering the vol. first? I found that out on some forum discussing CI's.

I do only post on all deaf in the ha/ci forum. or at times if I really have time venture into the ADA or Education forums. I have looked and possibly posted in another one that had to do with deafness in general or something like that but it really isn't something I feel the need to do with my time constaints. I know some people have lots of time to spend on here. Not me.

Hope that clarifies some. Have a good day.

 

[Buffalo]

Second that too,
Dang Bear

you did it again

{{{Echo}}}