District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

I am also a community college student and I will be taking college English online, rather than staring at the interpreters. Maybe that's something your children might want to think about. just two cents

Yeah you know I think that would be good idea, that why they can work on their own pace

 

[rjr2006]

I do know what Bi Bi and I do know that it can be a very good program but what I am trying to say is just because it is good for one deaf student does not mean it is good for all deaf students and that we need to look at each deaf child as an individual

Agreeable! We learn in different ways!
Same with hearing people and no one is perfect

 

[rjr2006]

Yeah you know I think that would be good idea, that why they can work on their own pace

Yes and I was told that online English class requires A LOT OF READING so I don't mind that at all. We use vision to grab everything. I would suggest that your children to get familiar with forums (it can be their favorite hobby, game, or something that they are interested in) so that they will get used to reading and posting very often.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

If she doesn't know sign language, then how come they don't give her the CART she's asking for? Maybe I missed something somewhere along the way.....

They don't want to give her CART because CART is more expensive then an interpeter but the judge said that the school was not respecting her mode of communication

 

[Barbaro]

I certainly agree with your points. One of the first things I did when I began working for disability services at the college where I am employed and working on my graduate degree was to get rid of the practice of using student volunteer notetakers. And I am in the process of doing away with notetakers altogether and using CART for not only deaf students, but for other disabled students needing notetaking services as well. CART is one of the technological improvements that has the potential to be more helpful than anything we have come across in many, many years.

Indeed. I concur we need to get rid of the practice of using student volunteer note-takers. Personally, I honesty do think other disabled students deserve CART than note-takers, but if a disabled student prefers note taking over CART, that's fine.

The onlu problem I see, with relation to deaf students, is that it is an English transcript, and is a student is strongly based in ASL, it may also be necessary to provide an ASL terp so that the student gets the concept in ASL during the lecture, and then has available a print transcript of the lecture in English

I know what you mean. I've seen some deaf students at college struggling to read the English language. For instance, I knew a deaf student was registering for a class, but the class was full. He was placed on "wait-list". He had gotten a wrong idea that "wait list" means he was waiting for the admission office to call him, so he can go to class. I had to explain him clearly what "wait-list" was.

We have to make sure the student gets comfortable and understands the concept in ASL during the lecture. For me, I don't need an interpreter, since I am an avid reader. But My signing skills are somewhat moderate. I shall make a request for interpreters, and it'll help me effectively develop my signing skills by watching and signing with interpreters. We do help each other by communicating through sign language to keep our skills fresh.

BiBi approach can combine sign language and oral language too. I know in California the BIBI approach is not allowed in any schools due to a proposition. Same thing goes for AZ.

What proposition is it? What is BIBI approach?

 

[jillio]

But why does my daughter have to change who she is just because it would make it easier for the school to provide her an interpeter. The special education law states that school must respect and encourage thestudent's preferred mode of communication not what is easiest for the school

I don't see it so much as your daughter changing who she is, but simply accepting who she is. And the purpose would not be to make it easier for the school system, but to make it easier for her to comprehend the information. The benefit would be to her, not the school system.

 

[jillio]

You know I get what you are saying but our case is different because we are a different type of family. Every school year I meet with all of their teachers. I explain my children to them. I explain to them that my children have above average intelligence that they will trick into thinking they understand everything. I spend a lot of time talking about background noises and how one to one they are great but with a lot noises going around how hard it is. I also explain to these teachers that I am not just a parent of 2 deaf children but I a teacher of deaf and I became a teacher because of my children.

Not so different from other families as I too met with my son's school when he was mainstreamed--not once but 3 times a year. After I insisted that he be transfered to a school for the Deaf because he was receiving inadequate services, I continued to meet with the school twice a year. An IEP was still necessary because he was enrolled in the school for the deaf through his home school district. I too spent hours and hours explaining--but it continued to fall on the "deaf ears" of the administration--and obviously, they haven't paid a great deal of attention to you, either.
I think what they problem is generally not always but the deaf kids who do not have much success is because of the parents and family and it does not matter if the child is oral or signing.

I have seen many many successful oral kids and signing kids, and it always the parents that are most involved in their kids education.
My daughter has oral friends and signing friends in honors classes and these are parents that I always see at school.

I have seen many signing kids that are not successful in school and most of the time is because parents did not take the time to learn how to sign.
I have also seen many oral kids not be successful and parents trying to make them be oral when they need sign.

I am all for whatever road the family wants to take they need to embrace it completely doesn't matter if it signing or oral.

It doesn't matter if it is oral or signing as long as the child is receiving maximum benefit. If the child begins to indicate that there are problems, then it is time to rethink the direction you have chosen.
And this is what my family did, we changed our way of life for our children. And oral was right for us but I know it is not right for everybody.

What I wish for is for both communities to get along and respect each other

And I agree. And that would mean undertanding that it is not an either/or argument, but rather one of including every advantage.

 

[jillio]

We really shouldn't judge somebody without knowing them. I am not judging you. In fact, I have made it very clear that I am not passing judgement on your parenting skills or your value as a person.

Since I am an oral teacher of the deaf I have taken several college level classes in ASL. While I probable couldn't communicate with a deaf adult signers, my signing skills are OK.
This is a bit of a pradoxical comment. Oral teachers normally do not utilize sign linaguage in any form. And my question would remain. Do you use your sign skills to communicate with your deaf children in their home environment? That is not a judgement, but simply a question.




I do try to sign with my daughter but she tells me not too. She tells I can hear you and understand you so please talk to me.


Is it possible because she is in an oral environment, and has not been exposed at all to deaf culture, that she has developed a sort of self destructive oralist attitude toward herself? After all, if she has been given the message that oral is superior to sign, then she would rebel against sign for fear that it would place her in that inferior category. Please reread some of shel's posts on the consequences of an oral environment and the message that it provides.
I do sign with her deaf friends. I am much better at telling them what I want to tell them then they telling me.

Communication is a two way street. To communicate, one must be able not only to direct, but to receive.
My daughter was on a deaf cheerleading squad and her coach was deaf and ended being one of my professors at school.
I am not denying my daughter to use sign language. I do everything in my power for her to stay in contact with her deaf friends at her old school. I also stay her to deaf awareness that happens once a month about 45 minutes away from my home.
She just recently went to a prom with young man that only signs. In order for to let her do that the boy had to come my house to ask for permission because that is the way I was raised. When this young man came to my house I ask my friend an ASL interpeter to come to make sure that I understood what he was saying and he understood my rules.
I do feel that I expose my children to the Deaf culture.

And it is wonderful that you are beginning to do this. I encourage you not only to allow your children to participate, but that you actively participate, as well. That conveys not only an attitude of acceptance to your children, but also opens up considerations of what it is to be deaf that you would never have conceived of without direct exposure and participation in the culture. And I speak from direct experience.
You talk about limiting my children. This is exactly what I am trying not to do. If I place my daughter in a d/hh special day class then she would be working at 5 th grade level work.
Can you identify for me the statistics you are using for assuming that all children in d/hh classes do not work above a 5th grade level? I understand that you are trying not to limit your daughter. I never accused you of anything of the kind. As parents, we all attempt what we believe is in the best interest of your children. But, as parents, we are human and we sometimes make mistakes--me included. Those mistakes are made not from lack of good intention, but from lack of information regarding the eventual consequences our decisions have.

I do not care how good a teacher is is she has 10 kids and 9 are working at 5 th grade but my daughter is working at a 10th grade then that teacher will focus on the majority of her students and my daughter will regress. This is just the way the system is. And want more for my children

And I wanted more for my son, as well. The way I accomplished that was to place him somewhere where his opporetunities were expanded, and his strenghts were capitlized on. That, for me, was a deaf school. That doesn't mean that I tell all parents that this is what they should decide, but it does mean that I offer this solution as a possible option. [/

 

[jillio]

You are telling me that I should place her in d/hh special day class and tell her she should exceed everybody's expectations. Although all of her peers in this class would be functioing about 4 grades below her, I should place her in this class, where teacher will be teaching to the majority of her students. Wouldn't it be better to place her in a mainstream class that is functioning slightly above her level and give her the accomdations that she needs to be successful.

Please stop reinterpreting my words. Nowhere did I say that you should do this or that. I am simply making observations based on what you are disclosing about your daughter's situation and pointing out alternatives. And please stop using such broad generaliztions as all when refering to deaf students.

Can you image how helpful my daughter could be to deaf people that just sign with her oral skills and signing skills. She can be their link.

Yees, she could be a wonderful link. Bur her oral skills will not guarantee that. Education will guarantee that.

You know what hate when people judge my decisions just because past parents wanted their child to be oral and did not give up on that hope even though they should have.
No one is judging you. And I am not basing my observations on what past parents have done, but on the situation you have chosen to share regarding your daughter.

My children are very successful and they have great oral skills. And I ask is for people to respect my decisions because my children are mine.

Success is very subjective. Are you basing this on oral skills alone, or academic achievement?

Yes, your children are yours. I naturally assumed that becasue you came to a deaf forum, you were looking for feedback--not sympathy.

I want you to know also that I had a time line in my head when my kids were young if by certain time their oral kids were developing the way they should we would have taken signing road.
The fact that so many parents consider signing a second rate option only to be used in the case of "oral failures" is exactly why deaf students continue to be deprived of proper education and continue to experience the difficulties inherent in language delay.

I had actually already looked for good TC programs. When my son was 3 year we loved where there was good oral and TC program just in case

 

[jillio]

Jillo
So because you believe in the Bi-Bi makes it right for all deaf children. I have decided to raise my children orall but I do not think the oral method is right for all deaf children. I think we have to take a look at the child and the way the child learns and take a look at the family.
Decisions have to make on an individual basis.
As parents we have to be open to changing our decisions based on how our children are doing.

No, not because I believe in it, but because research has overwhelming shown that academic performance is facilitated. And why are you questioning the possibility of a BI-BI educaton is you are open to changing your decisions based on how your child is doing?

In post #74, you stated that your daughter dies have lots of problems with understanding her teachers, and that she cannot participate in class discussions. You stated that she couldn't hear the questions.

In post #81, you stated that she would fake understanding because she was just trying to fit in and didn't want to be singled out.

In post #56, you stated that she received below basic scores on state tests.

Also in post # 74, you stated that she did have trouble understanding academic content.

These are your words describing your daughter's situation, not mine. And my interpretation from what you have shared is that your daughter is experiencing educational problems, has been experiencing problems for quite some time, and that these problems should be addressed. I also see her current situation as not working to provide her with maximum benefit from the educaitonal environment. I base my conclusions not only on my experience from having raised a deaf child, but from having a master's degree in counseling which I use to provide counseling services to deaf adolescents and their parents, by working on my doctorate and doing my graduate assistantship in disabiltiy services providing accommodations to other deaf students, and from extensive research into the consequences of certain educational practices as applied to the deaf student.

 

[jillio]

I have agreed to the oral method because this is what I want for my children. My kids have done well in an oral envirnoment. It just recently where I am looking for the future that we have come to understanding that CART will give her full access to curriulum which what the laws that the school needs to do.

Perhaps if she had had full access to the curriculum throughout her entire educational career, she would not be experiencing the problems that she is currently experiencing.

 

[shel90]

No, not because I believe in it, but because research has overwhelming shown that academic performance is facilitated. And why are you questioning the possibility of a BI-BI educaton is you are open to changing your decisions based on how your child is doing?

In post #74, you stated that your daughter dies have lots of problems with understanding her teachers, and that she cannot participate in class discussions. You stated that she couldn't hear the questions.

In post #81, you stated that she would fake understanding because she was just trying to fit in and didn't want to be singled out.

In post #56, you stated that she received below basic scores on state tests.

Also in post # 74, you stated that she did have trouble understanding academic content.

These are your words describing your daughter's situation, not mine. And my interpretation from what you have shared is that your daughter is experiencing educational problems, has been experiencing problems for quite some time, and that these problems should be addressed. I also see her current situation as not working to provide her with maximum benefit from the educaitonal environment. I base my conclusions not only on my experience from having raised a deaf child, but from having a master's degree in counseling which I use to provide counseling services to deaf adolescents and their parents, by working on my doctorate and doing my graduate assistantship in disabiltiy services providing accommodations to other deaf students, and from extensive research into the consequences of certain educational practices as applied to the deaf student.

All those statements are exactly what I went thru being raised in the oral only approach. It was a very frustrating and made school a place that I hated going. I used to ditch so many classes that my report card, one time, had a red flag of being deliquent (spelling?).

 

[jillio]

Again because you feel the Bi-Bi approach is what you feel is good you think it is good for all deaf students, decisions need to be based on what is best for that particular student not what is the oralists camp or the Deaf culture camp.

Obviously, you are functioning under some misconceptions. Bi-Bi is actually a moderate position. And once again, it is not based on my opinion alone, but rather empirical evidence and the assertions of deaf educators who are frustrated with the system of educating deaf children that has, and continues to be, genrally unsuccessful when compared to their hearing peers.

 

[jillio]

I have talked to several interpeters and deaf adult signers. An interpeter cannot interpeter everything being said in a class because there is not a sign for every word and because people speak much faster then an interpeter can interpet. And yes there has always been things she has missed in school and that is why I am in constant communication with her teachers.
I have also spoken to some of my daughters friends' parents that just sign and have sign their entire lives, they also miss information so it is not like my daughter is missing information because she is oral, she is missing information because she is deaf and this is why I am fighting for CART. And I will take this all way through every court system I need too.

I don't know what interpreters you have spoken to, but this is completely innacurate information. And everyone misses some information--hearing, deaf, everyone. The issue is degree.

I wish you luck in your legal battles. It will take a great deal of focus and energy that could perhaps be applied to finding a solution that would offer increased educational benefit, rather than maintenance of the status quo.

 

[jillio]

You say it is oral education in general, I say it any type of education oral or signing. I have seen success in both realms and failures in both realms but because your bias towards signing is why you feel the way you do.
My daughter has 3 friends that have sign their entire lives and are in mainstream honors classes really bright girls and doing great. I have seen a bunch of deaf kids in TC Special education classes that e doing 2nd grade math in the 8th grade. I have also seen this same thing with deaf kids that are oral. So can work both ways.

I think we need to keep an open mind

I agree--WE do need to keep an open mind. I, too have seen success and failure in both realms--however, I have seen proportionately more success in children who have been exposed to both sign and speech--and the greatest amount of success is within the population of deaf children of deaf parents who have been exposed to sign from birth. I am pro whatever works.

When TC is approached as a special education methodolgy, it is being poluted, and does not create the atmosphere that was intended.

 

[jillio]

All those statements are exactly what I went thru being raised in the oral only approach. It was a very frustrating and made school a place that I hated going. I used to ditch so many classes that my report card, one time, had a red flag of being deliquent (spelling?).

Spelling is correct. And do you agree that these problems are cumulative, and begin not in high school, but simply become evident at around that point?

 

[shel90]

Spelling is correct. And do you agree that these problems are cumulative, and begin not in high school, but simply become evident at around that point?

Oh looking back, all these problems started little by little starting when I was in kindergarten..I still even remember moments in my kindergarten class feeling confused cuz there was a game in which the teacher turned the lights off and she would call out a word and in order for the lights to go back on the class had to spell the word correctly or something like that. I remember sitting in the dark feeling anxiety..it still sticks to my mind like yesterday..

I seem to have more bad memories of my childhood than good ones..people used to say that I focused too much on the negativity but I tried so hard to remember the good times but I guess they must have faded away and I no longer remember them. Well, makes sense cuz I think there was some traumatic experiences constantly going on...who knows?

 

[jillio]

Oh looking back, all these problems started little by little starting when I was in kindergarten..I still even remember moments in my kindergarten class feeling confused cuz there was a game in which the teacher turned the lights off and she would call out a word and in order for the lights to go back on the class had to spell the word correctly or something like that. I remember sitting in the dark feeling anxiety..it still sticks to my mind like yesterday..

I seem to have more bad memories of my childhood than good ones..people used to say that I focused too much on the negativity but I tried so hard to remember the good times but I guess they must have faded away and I no longer remember them. Well, makes sense cuz I think there was some traumatic experiences constantly going on...who knows?

Makes absolute sense. And it makes me admire you all the more for the things that you have accomplished and the fact that you have dedicated your teaching career to trying to prevent another deaf child suffering the same consequences. I think that is the message we are both trying to give: these things need to be addressed from day one, not when a kid is 16 or 17 years old. It is easier to prevent the problems than it is to try and correct them after they have occurred.

 

[shel90]

Makes absolute sense. And it makes me admire you all the more for the things that you have accomplished and the fact that you have dedicated your teaching career to trying to prevent another deaf child suffering the same consequences. I think that is the message we are both trying to give: these things need to be addressed from day one, not when a kid is 16 or 17 years old. It is easier to prevent the problems than it is to try and correct them after they have occurred.

and I try that but most of the parents just disregard me as negative or biased and continue to put their children in the same kinds of situations ...that's why I feel I am wasting my time sometimes..

 

[jillio]

and I try that but most of the parents just disregard me as negative or biased and continue to put their children in the same kinds of situations ...that's why I feel I am wasting my time sometimes..

I completely understand. Just because I support the concept of Bi-Bi I am told that I am biased toward sign and against oral skills, when in fact, the bi-bi philosophy proposes the use of both. In fact the true bias comes from those who are experiencing problems with their child's education, but refuse to let go of their practices that obviously are not working. Holding onto that which is ineffective even after it has proven ineffective is the true bias, because it is illogical.