District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

I didn't say that. I'm only saying that deaf/hh children educated in an oral environment in a mainstream setting are quite often thought to be doing well because they have adequate oral skills in a one on one situation. Not until it is too late to the educators, and sometimes the parents, realize that not providing visual cues all along has had a cumalive effect that just begins to show up once the student reaches jr. high or high school level. It's a problem with oral education in general, not a reflection on your parenting practices.

You know I get what you are saying but our case is different because we are a different type of family. Every school year I meet with all of their teachers. I explain my children to them. I explain to them that my children have above average intelligence that they will trick into thinking they understand everything. I spend a lot of time talking about background noises and how one to one they are great but with a lot noises going around how hard it is. I also explain to these teachers that I am not just a parent of 2 deaf children but I a teacher of deaf and I became a teacher because of my children.

I think what they problem is generally not always but the deaf kids who do not have much success is because of the parents and family and it does not matter if the child is oral or signing.

I have seen many many successful oral kids and signing kids, and it always the parents that are most involved in their kids education.
My daughter has oral friends and signing friends in honors classes and these are parents that I always see at school.

I have seen many signing kids that are not successful in school and most of the time is because parents did not take the time to learn how to sign.
I have also seen many oral kids not be successful and parents trying to make them be oral when they need sign.

I am all for whatever road the family wants to take they need to embrace it completely doesn't matter if it signing or oral.

And this is what my family did, we changed our way of life for our children. And oral was right for us but I know it is not right for everybody.

What I wish for is for both communities to get along and respect each other

 

[shel90]

I will be honest..I wish I wasnt raised orally in the educational system. I am sure my parents thought best for me and no, I dont blame them. I put the blame on the oral specialists who pushed my parents into thinking that was the best for me. I hated middle and high school. High school was better but I felt something was missing and I was engaging in self destructive behaviors to fill that void. That void I felt was from constantly missing out on everything which lead the anger to grow and fester in me. There are other deaf people who have been happy being raised orally so everyone is different.

Let me rephrase that..I wish I wasnt raised in an oral only enviornment in which signing was denied to me while growing up and when it was finally offered to me via an ASL terp when I was in high school, I was already so "brainwashed" into thinking that signing is for deaf people who are low functioning (yes my brother was a signer all his life so this twisted way of thinking that I adopted still doesnt make sense to me even to this day) so I refused to cooperate with having a terp. I dont know if I had a good balance between both, I would be happier? Yes, I am happy to have oral skills but not happy to be denied sign language growing up. When I was in elementary school, I showed a curiousity in learning but I got the message that I was too smart for it and didnt need it. Maybe that was how I started that twisted way of thinking that sign language was for "dumb" deaf people. Looking b ack, I feel really stupid for thinking that way and I wish I knew better. AT least your daughter is signing socially so at least she gets a good balance. I was in an oral only environment 24/7 and was always constantly frustrated with communication breakdowns or people telling me "I will tell u later..or nevermind." when I asked what everyone else was saying. Yea, to have that constantly repeated day in and day out can lead to emotional distress which is why I started a thread called "The traumatic experience of discovering Deafness.." something like that. That right there applied to all my internal struggles being around all hearing children in my schools. Finally, in high school, my best friend who is deaf, and I were in the same school but due to the large number of student population in my high school (around 4,000 kids) my friend and I rarely saw each other during the day.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

It is not really an oral vs. signing issue for me. It should be the use of both. Oral skills are very useful, and I believe that they should be a part of the deaf child's education. However, I also believe that no matter how proficent the oral child is in spoken English, to deny them sign is to deny them the opportunity to receive all of the same information from their environment, be it educational or social, that hearing children receive. To keep a child in a strictly oral environment limits their opportunites rather than increasing them.

D/d/hh students should be in educational placements for deaf students because that is where they will receive the education best suited to their needs, as not as a last ditch effort to bring them up to grade level. That is one on my main complaints with the oral placement. And that philosophy is one of the reasons that deaf students fall behind hearing students in achievement.

You say that you are not anti-signing or anti-Deaf Culture--but have you exposed your children to sign and Deaf Culture in the home environment? Have you learned sign in order to communicate with your deaf children? Perhaps you don't have anything against other deaf who sign, but if you have chosen not to use it with your own deaf children, then that is the message that is communicated.

We really shouldn't judge somebody without knowing them. Since I am an oral teacher of the deaf I have taken several college level classes in ASL. While I probable couldn't communicate with a deaf adult signers, my signing skills are OK.
I do try to sign with my daughter but she tells me not too. She tells I can hear you and understand you so please talk to me.
I do sign with her deaf friends. I am much better at telling them what I want to tell them then they telling me.
My daughter was on a deaf cheerleading squad and her coach was deaf and ended being one of my professors at school.
I am not denying my daughter to use sign language. I do everything in my power for her to stay in contact with her deaf friends at her old school. I also stay her to deaf awareness that happens once a month about 45 minutes away from my home.
She just recently went to a prom with young man that only signs. In order for to let her do that the boy had to come my house to ask for permission because that is the way I was raised. When this young man came to my house I ask my friend an ASL interpeter to come to make sure that I understood what he was saying and he understood my rules.
I do feel that I expose my children to the Deaf culture.

You talk about limiting my children. This is exactly what I am trying not to do. If I place my daughter in a d/hh special day class then she would be working at 5 th grade level work. I do not care how good a teacher is is she has 10 kids and 9 are working at 5 th grade but my daughter is working at a 10th grade then that teacher will focus on the majority of her students and my daughter will regress. This is just the way the system is. And want more for my children

 

[shel90]

You know I get what you are saying but our case is different because we are a different type of family. Every school year I meet with all of their teachers. I explain my children to them. I explain to them that my children have above average intelligence that they will trick into thinking they understand everything. I spend a lot of time talking about background noises and how one to one they are great but with a lot noises going around how hard it is. I also explain to these teachers that I am not just a parent of 2 deaf children but I a teacher of deaf and I became a teacher because of my children.

I think what they problem is generally not always but the deaf kids who do not have much success is because of the parents and family and it does not matter if the child is oral or signing.

I have seen many many successful oral kids and signing kids, and it always the parents that are most involved in their kids education.
My daughter has oral friends and signing friends in honors classes and these are parents that I always see at school.

I have seen many signing kids that are not successful in school and most of the time is because parents did not take the time to learn how to sign.
I have also seen many oral kids not be successful and parents trying to make them be oral when they need sign.

I am all for whatever road the family wants to take they need to embrace it completely doesn't matter if it signing or oral.

And this is what my family did, we changed our way of life for our children. And oral was right for us but I know it is not right for everybody.

What I wish for is for both communities to get along and respect each other

I agree with u that there! I see that so often which is why my students are so far behind. Even after giving up on the oral only approach and sending their kids to our school where signing is used, most of the parents have yet learned sign cuz it seems that they still have the hope that someday their deaf children will wake up one day and start using spoken language. That kind of denial is what is making their children suffer. I would like both communities to get along which is why I am all for using both approaches..my school now has adopted spoken English to meet the auditory needs of our hoh or CI students. I think it is great! We have everything..LOL! Just wish more involved parents...that's one thing I would love to see an improvement with my school but...in the end , it is really up to the parents to make that adjustment..


U are right about parental involvment making a huge difference...my mom was very involved with both my and my brother's educational lives. I was in an oral only approach and was successful academically, my brother was in a signing only approach and was successful both academically and social-emotionally (he did struggle with writing due to be delayed in language at the age of 5 from not picking up on oral language). I believe that my mom had a lot to do with both of us being successful even though we both grew up with totally opposite educational approaches.

 

[shel90]

We really shouldn't judge somebody without knowing them. Since I am an oral teacher of the deaf I have taken several college level classes in ASL. While I probable couldn't communicate with a deaf adult signers, my signing skills are OK.
I do try to sign with my daughter but she tells me not too. She tells I can hear you and understand you so please talk to me.
I do sign with her deaf friends. I am much better at telling them what I want to tell them then they telling me.
My daughter was on a deaf cheerleading squad and her coach was deaf and ended being one of my professors at school.
I am not denying my daughter to use sign language. I do everything in my power for her to stay in contact with her deaf friends at her old school. I also stay her to deaf awareness that happens once a month about 45 minutes away from my home.
She just recently went to a prom with young man that only signs. In order for to let her do that the boy had to come my house to ask for permission because that is the way I was raised. When this young man came to my house I ask my friend an ASL interpeter to come to make sure that I understood what he was saying and he understood my rules.
I do feel that I expose my children to the Deaf culture.

You talk about limiting my children. This is exactly what I am trying not to do. If I place my daughter in a d/hh special day class then she would be working at 5 th grade level work. I do not care how good a teacher is is she has 10 kids and 9 are working at 5 th grade but my daughter is working at a 10th grade then that teacher will focus on the majority of her students and my daughter will regress. This is just the way the system is. And want more for my children

My mom had that same problem with my brother at his school for a short time. The teachers were focused on the kids who were functioning way below their age appropriate level so my brother was left on his own. My mom went to the school and demanded a change...the school hired a reading specialist to work with my brother cuz he needed to be challenged more than what the teachers were offering. Heck, one time, my brother got into trouble at school and he got the student handbook and pointed out the rule that wasnt in it to the teacher and told them that he cant get punished if that rule is not in the book. What a smart ass ..LOL! But that showed that he had the concept of finding something in print to get of detention. The following school year, they added the rule. I asked my mom what grade he was in at the time..she said in 5th grade. That's impressive cuz nobody taught him that.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Let me rephrase that..I wish I wasnt raised in an oral only enviornment in which signing was denied to me while growing up and when it was finally offered to me via an ASL terp when I was in high school, I was already so "brainwashed" into thinking that signing is for deaf people who are low functioning (yes my brother was a signer all his life so this twisted way of thinking that I adopted still doesnt make sense to me even to this day) so I refused to cooperate with having a terp. I dont know if I had a good balance between both, I would be happier? Yes, I am happy to have oral skills but not happy to be denied sign language growing up. When I was in elementary school, I showed a curiousity in learning but I got the message that I was too smart for it and didnt need it. Maybe that was how I started that twisted way of thinking that sign language was for "dumb" deaf people. Looking b ack, I feel really stupid for thinking that way and I wish I knew better. AT least your daughter is signing socially so at least she gets a good balance. I was in an oral only environment 24/7 and was always constantly frustrated with communication breakdowns or people telling me "I will tell u later..or nevermind." when I asked what everyone else was saying. Yea, to have that constantly repeated day in and day out can lead to emotional distress which is why I started a thread called "The traumatic experience of discovering Deafness.." something like that. That right there applied to all my internal struggles being around all hearing children in my schools. Finally, in high school, my best friend who is deaf, and I were in the same school but due to the large number of student population in my high school (around 4,000 kids) my friend and I rarely saw each other during the day.

Maybe because I a am teacher and have a couple of friends some that are oral and some that just sign, I understand completely about never ever telling my kids I will tell later or never mind it's not important. At her school right now there is one other oral deaf student and she is very close with her. They are at lunch together all the time.
On the weekends I make sure that she has a chance to see her friends. Sometimes I hate driving her around but I do anyway.
And I really try to sign with her friends but my daughter does not like the fact that know some sign and can sort of tell what they are talking about

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I agree with u that there! I see that so often which is why my students are so far behind. Even after giving up on the oral only approach and sending their kids to our school where signing is used, most of the parents have yet learned sign cuz it seems that they still have the hope that someday their deaf children will wake up one day and start using spoken language. That kind of denial is what is making their children suffer. I would like both communities to get along which is why I am all for using both approaches..my school now has adopted spoken English to meet the auditory needs of our hoh or CI students. I think it is great! We have everything..LOL! Just wish more involved parents...that's one thing I would love to see an improvement with my school but...in the end , it is really up to the parents to make that adjustment..


U are right about parental involvment making a huge difference...my mom was very involved with both my and my brother's educational lives. I was in an oral only approach and was successful academically, my brother was in a signing only approach and was successful both academically and social-emotionally (he did struggle with writing due to be delayed in language at the age of 5 from not picking up on oral language). I believe that my mom had a lot to do with both of us being successful even though we both grew up with totally opposite educational approaches.

I have seen it like you said where a child is switch from oral to signing and they do not learn sign language because they think their child will talk and that is so wrong
But I have also seen it where a child has been in a TC class from the start and they are not now in high school and parents signing skills are still at a preschool level.
And this program that I am talking about they offer sign language for the parents free and parents still don't go.

 

[shel90]

I have seen it like you said where a child is switch from oral to signing and they do not learn sign language because they think their child will talk and that is so wrong
But I have also seen it where a child has been in a TC class from the start and they are not now in high school and parents signing skills are still at a preschool level.
And this program that I am talking about they offer sign language for the parents free and parents still don't go.[/QUOTE]

This program isnt the only one...my school offers free signing classes and only maybe 1% of the parents do go.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Unfortunalely, 16 year old children do know what they want, but they base their wants and desires on the wrong criteria. It is necessary for the parents to step inat this point. As far as challenges go, having lower expectations should not have an effect on her education. She can always exceed the expectations and prove those who aren't giving her credit for her capabilites wrong.

You are telling me that I should place her in d/hh special day class and tell her she should exceed everybody's expectations. Although all of her peers in this class would be functioing about 4 grades below her, I should place her in this class, where teacher will be teaching to the majority of her students. Wouldn't it be better to place her in a mainstream class that is functioning slightly above her level and give her the accomdations that she needs to be successful.

Can you image how helpful my daughter could be to deaf people that just sign with her oral skills and signing skills. She can be their link.

You know what hate when people judge my decisions just because past parents wanted their child to be oral and did not give up on that hope even though they should have. My children are very successful and they have great oral skills. And I ask is for people to respect my decisions because my children are mine.

I want you to know also that I had a time line in my head when my kids were young if by certain time their oral kids were developing the way they should we would have taken signing road. I had actually already looked for good TC programs. When my son was 3 year we loved where there was good oral and TC program just in case.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I have seen it like you said where a child is switch from oral to signing and they do not learn sign language because they think their child will talk and that is so wrong
But I have also seen it where a child has been in a TC class from the start and they are not now in high school and parents signing skills are still at a preschool level.
And this program that I am talking about they offer sign language for the parents free and parents still don't go.[/QUOTE]

This program isnt the only one...my school offers free signing classes and only maybe 1% of the parents do go.

You are so right it doesn't matter what road a parents takes they need to embrace it. It just like a parent wanting their child to be oral but saying I really don't like to talk a lot. Or we face this program a lot in california where parents speak spanish but want their child to be oral. So the child hears spoken english at school and spanish at home and want to know why their child isn't talking

 

[jackiesolorzano]

When other students ask questions and make remarks during a classroom discussion, it is a part of the total learning process that takes place in the classtoom. Students do not learn simply from a teacher's lecture, or from a text book. They learn by free exchange of ideas in an educational atmosphere. They learn from each other as well as the teacher. This is called periphereal learning, and is a very important part of the learning process.

In addition, school is a place for socialization, and learning how and when to apply social skills, and how to interact with one's peers, and to develop an understanding of the people with whom, and situations in which, one is most comfortable.

All of this is freely available to the hearing students in this school, and therefore, the school is obligated to make such available to any deaf student, as well.

And I might add, if this parent had of taken a bi-bi approach, none of this would be an issue. Because a sign terp would interpret ambient noise and periphereal information, it would be available. This is one of the dangers of a strictly oral educational placement and philosophy. This child is receiving less than adequate education because the belief is obviously that because she has a CI, and is functioning reasonably well in one on one situations, she will function in the same way in a classroom.

Jillo
So because you believe in the Bi-Bi makes it right for all deaf children. I have decided to raise my children orall but I do not think the oral method is right for all deaf children. I think we have to take a look at the child and the way the child learns and take a look at the family.
Decisions have to make on an individual basis.
As parents we have to be open to changing our decisions based on how our children are doing.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Unfortunately, because you have signed off on IEPs int he past that provided minimal services, it is causing you problems now. You agreed tothe oral environment for your daughter, the schools system has been permitted to provide those minimal services for her, and now they are standing on that fact. And they have the paperwork to prove that you have agreed to lesser services historically.

I have agreed to the oral method because this is what I want for my children. My kids have done well in an oral envirnoment. It just recently where I am looking for the future that we have come to understanding that CART will give her full access to curriulum which what the laws that the school needs to do.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I agree. And that is one of the most valid reasons for supporting a BI-BI educaitonal atmosphere.

Again because you feel the Bi-Bi approach is what you feel is good you think it is good for all deaf students, decisions need to be based on what is best for that particular student not what is the oralists camp or the Deaf culture camp.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

And why is it that she just learned to sign in middle school? Obviously, missing out on classroom material has been an issue since she started school, not something that is just now occurring.

I have talked to several interpeters and deaf adult signers. An interpeter cannot interpeter everything being said in a class because there is not a sign for every word and because people speak much faster then an interpeter can interpet. And yes there has always been things she has missed in school and that is why I am in constant communication with her teachers.
I have also spoken to some of my daughters friends' parents that just sign and have sign their entire lives, they also miss information so it is not like my daughter is missing information because she is oral, she is missing information because she is deaf and this is why I am fighting for CART. And I will take this all way through every court system I need too.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I didn't say that. I'm only saying that deaf/hh children educated in an oral environment in a mainstream setting are quite often thought to be doing well because they have adequate oral skills in a one on one situation. Not until it is too late to the educators, and sometimes the parents, realize that not providing visual cues all along has had a cumalive effect that just begins to show up once the student reaches jr. high or high school level. It's a problem with oral education in general, not a reflection on your parenting practices.

You say it is oral education in general, I say it any type of education oral or signing. I have seen success in both realms and failures in both realms but because your bias towards signing is why you feel the way you do.
My daughter has 3 friends that have sign their entire lives and are in mainstream honors classes really bright girls and doing great. I have seen a bunch of deaf kids in TC Special education classes that e doing 2nd grade math in the 8th grade. I have also seen this same thing with deaf kids that are oral. So can work both ways.

I think we need to keep an open mind

 

[rjr2006]

hey jackiesolorzano,
I understand how your children are going and I can relate to them. I am a profoundly deaf quadriplegic, and I have been using CART since my psychiatrist told the state that a CART Reporter would be better. before I took the evaluation, I kept telling my counselor that he needed to slow down signs and he refused. I could not understand some of ASL signs, because I was raised using oral and SEE.





You are not the only one, but I am also living in the wealthy town and I went through due process last year. I won and they paid $15,000 for my services until May 2007.

 

[shel90]

Again because you feel the Bi-Bi approach is what you feel is good you think it is good for all deaf students, decisions need to be based on what is best for that particular student not what is the oralists camp or the Deaf culture camp.

BiBi approach can combine sign language and oral language too. I know in California the BIBI approach is not allowed in any schools due to a proposition. Same thing goes for AZ.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

hey jackiesolorzano,
I understand how your children are going and I can relate to them. I am a profoundly deaf quadriplegic, and I have been using CART since my psychiatrist told the state that a CART Reporter would be better. before I took the evaluation, I kept telling my counselor that he needed to slow down signs and he refused. I could not understand some of ASL signs, because I was raised using oral and SEE.





You are not the only one, but I am also living in the wealthy town and I went through due process last year. I won and they paid $15,000 for my services until May 2007.

I am so happy for you. It is shame that we have struggle so much to get what we need. We won at due process but they are appealing the decision but they are going to provide CART for the fall school year.

Good Luck

 

[jackiesolorzano]

BiBi approach can combine sign language and oral language too. I know in California the BIBI approach is not allowed in any schools due to a proposition. Same thing goes for AZ.

I do know what Bi Bi and I do know that it can be a very good program but what I am trying to say is just because it is good for one deaf student does not mean it is good for all deaf students and that we need to look at each deaf child as an individual

 

[rjr2006]

I am also a community college student and I will be taking college English online, rather than staring at the interpreters. Maybe that's something your children might want to think about. just two cents