District files appeal against deaf student

[jillio]

Jillo, I cannot talk about other parents I have never argued that my kids hearing loss is not issue. It is an issue like you said even with their implant they still function like a person with a mild to slightly moderate hearing loss. My kids are different but so are most of us in one form or another. As a child growing up I was severely overweight and wore coke bottle type glasses. And this is what I have taught my children that we are all different in one way or another. I have never said that my kids are just like hearing kids. What I have said is that my kids are extremely smart that they hear a lot not everything that if they had the right accommdations for their needs they could access the curriulum. I have also said that my kids can function in the hearing world without having an interpeter with them. The can communicate on a one to one basis or in a small group. They can talk on both land lines and cell phones. They have ver clear speech. /COLOR]

And if they fuction as HH, they are not getting full access to language. Without full access to language, provisons such as CART are not uselful. Is that all its about...having very clear speech. Seems that the reporter that wrote your story disagreed with that one.

I beleive the reorter stated that your daughter did not enunciate well, but was understandable.

 

[jillio]

Jillo there is a big difference with a profoundly deaf child who wears a hearing aide or has a cochlear implant. There is no way you can deny this. Yes, CI kid functions like a person who has a mild to slightly moderate hearing loss. A profoundly deaf child that hears below 100DB and wears HA cannot hear all speech sounds. You cannot aide someone with 100db hearing loss or more to 20 to 30db, which the average place that a person with CI is aided too.

Once again, you do not understand the question. There are no differences in the problems experienced by CI users raised orally and nonCI users raised orally inthe educational deficits they experience. I have a sign language font on my computer. Shall I fingerspell it for you?

 

[jillio]

The issue of getting CART has is only about getting full access.

CART does not provide equal access to language. And it may provide access to receptive language, but it does nothing to provide the ability to communicate and have input in classroom expressively. Learning requires both.

 

[jillio]

I have heard of people like you but never really knew they exist.

Stick to the topic, jackie. You want to whine about being picked on, yet you refuse to stick tothe subject like an adult and insist on being the first tothrow personal insults.

 

[Cloggy]

Soo many words ... and nothing to say....

I agree. Closed minded is the refusal to accept other ideas and proof of fallacy EVEN IN THE FACE OF EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. And that is exactly what you are doing.

I doubt seriously that you will pass this information on to other parents, as you have not even accepted it in your own case.

So, your children are leaning toward finding that sameness of experience that we speak of when advising that childrenshould be exposed to deaf culture, and despite oral skills, it is never possible to fully integrate into hearing society. Thanks. You have supported my position with your admissions.

And, taking your children to these events, and actually participating inthem yourself is two different things. Do you yourself attend Deaf events? Ever even been to a silent dinner? Indirect involvement is not involvement at all. And as the foundation of Deaf Culture is their minority status based on cultural and linguistic difference, the signing aspect is crucial.

Why do you insist on playing the victim? Poor wittle jackie is being picked on. AWWWWW. Anytime you are faced with evidence that contradicts your personaly held philospohy, you want to claim that you are being bashed. Once again, it is not you that I object to, it is the oral only philosophy that you subscribe to. And if you find some of these questions difficult to answer, it is because they do not have viable answers that can be supported, not that anyone is picking on you. Get a grip. I hope you can behave for like an adult in the courtroom.

And unfortunately, illogical reasons for hanging onto an outmoded philosophy seems to be good enough for you, so no, I do not hope to change your mind. But what I do hope is to prevent other parents from falling into your trap.

I have contact with other parents on a consistent basis. You forget, not only do I work at the college level with students, I also provide counseling services for deaf adolescents and their parents. The fact that you are in the early intervention field is exactly what creates the problems that later need to be corrected. And the fact that you refuse to open your mind and take note of these problems will most certainly guarantee that they will continue.

You would enter another thread in order to learn the facts,a nd become familiar with what the deaf community has to say about the ways in which the policies that you support have had a negative effect on them. You would enter another thread to find information that will improve your ability to serve your deaf students. You would enter another thread to gaina little insight regarding your own children. You would enter another thread to form friendships with Deaf/deaf people, and to learn a little more about the culture that undoubtedly become a part of your own children's lives as they grow to adulthood. But the, I guess learning is not something you are very interested in.

And as I and others have said before, the issues being discussed here were perhaps prompted by the new article that was posted in regard to your daughter, but the issues are not about your daughter. They are about deaf children as a group. When you came in here, the discussion was about the educaiton ands provision of services for deaf children a a group. You are the one that has made it all about your daughter, and in doing so, have opened yourself up to criticism. Take some responsibility for your own actions.

Evidently, you are incapable of providing ALL of the information to parents, as you are woefully uninformed regarding the issues yourself.

 

[jillio]

Soo many words ... and nothing to say....

PLenty has been said. Perhaps you are not listening.

 

[deafdyke]

Deafdyke, if you do not want to accept the differences that is on you, I don't care. A child with a profound hearing loss who wears HA if they have an upper profound hearing loss are may be able to hear some of the middle speech sounds, with a cochear implant they are able to hear all the speech sounds.

Jackie I know the difference........ in your example, Its basicly the difference between receptive speech with ITEs vs BTEs for hh folks. HOWEVER there ARE kids with severe and profound losses who are aided with hearing aids who have mild losses while aided. It's not just CI kids who have mild losses when their devices are on!
and that does prove another point. You say that your child does well except in classroom situtions due to noise and classroom discussion. That proves our point.........oral only is not sufficent in all situtions. It's great that you don't think that Sign is bad. Its great that some oralists have gone that route......BUT, many oralists still have significent audist attitudes. They really tend to reject sign as "not as good" as speech, or have a "oh my child doesn't "need" it attitude. Why reject a possible helpful tool? You don't know whether or not it will be helpful or not. For all you know, using a 'terp could increase your child's grades just as well as using CART.
Oh, and Jackie I think what you're doing is WRONG. Your child is doing VERY well with just a notetaker. If she was doing poorly with a notetaker that would be ONE thing. But its overkill. Parents like you are part of the reason why schools are so reluctant to give good services. You're reinforcing the stereotype that kids on IEPs are all kids who are selectively classified, so they can get an edge through accomondations so that precious wittle Smashlie can get into Harvard.

 

[jillio]

Jackie I know the difference........ in your example, Its basicly the difference between receptive speech with ITEs vs BTEs for hh folks. HOWEVER there ARE kids with severe and profound losses who are aided with hearing aids who have mild losses while aided. It's not just CI kids who have mild losses when their devices are on!
and that does prove another point. You say that your child does well except in classroom situtions due to noise and classroom discussion. That proves our point.........oral only is not sufficent in all situtions. It's great that you don't think that Sign is bad. Its great that some oralists have gone that route......BUT, many oralists still have significent audist attitudes. They really tend to reject sign as "not as good" as speech, or have a "oh my child doesn't "need" it attitude. Why reject a possible helpful tool? You don't know whether or not it will be helpful or not. For all you know, using a 'terp could increase your child's grades just as well as using CART.
Oh, and Jackie I think what you're doing is WRONG. Your child is doing VERY well with just a notetaker. If she was doing poorly with a notetaker that would be ONE thing. But its overkill. Parents like you are part of the reason why schools are so reluctant to give good services. You're reinforcing the stereotype that kids on IEPs are all kids who are selectively classified, so they can get an edge through accomondations so that precious wittle Smashlie can get into Harvard.

YES! THANK YOU! Cases such as this are what makes it more difficult for parents to obtain even the most minimal accomodations for their child. It is generally viewed as an attempt to gain an advantage, not equal access.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

YES! THANK YOU! Cases such as this are what makes it more difficult for parents to obtain even the most minimal accomodations for their child. It is generally viewed as an attempt to gain an advantage, not equal access.

So you are blaming parents like me that want to ensure our children have equal access to the curriulum. I know I have read where you state that schools try to give the minimal amount so that they could save the most amount of money, which is it.
I have only taught for 8 years in 3 different school districts. And what I have seen in my years of teaching and my years as a parent is that schools try to save the most amount of money. They give parents like me the most amount of services because we ask for it and we know what our rights are. If a parent doesn't ask for a service generally schools do not offer it.
It is a shame that you blame parents like me for the schools failure in providing services that children need.

 

[rockdrummer]

oh geeze!!!

 

[jillio]

So you are blaming parents like me that want to ensure our children have equal access to the curriulum. I know I have read where you state that schools try to give the minimal amount so that they could save the most amount of money, which is it.
I have only taught for 8 years in 3 different school districts. And what I have seen in my years of teaching and my years as a parent is that schools try to save the most amount of money. They give parents like me the most amount of services because we ask for it and we know what our rights are. If a parent doesn't ask for a service generally schools do not offer it.
It is a shame that you blame parents like me for the schools failure in providing services that children need.

Here we go agian....poor wittle jackie is being picked on.

That is not what I said at all. Please read more carefully, and take what is written as it is written, and not what you want it to be.

 

[MELISSA8]

I come from a deaf family and I am really upset to see the negativity towards Jackie...she has chosen to raise her children Oral who are we to judge her. We all have to make the right choices for our children. I believe that if the CART was invented years ago more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom. I think we should look at the differences in public schools versus residential schools and how the students language skills are. So many deaf ppl can't understand the English grammar. This is sad since they are productive citizens who are also in the workforce along with their hearing peers. Give Samnatha the CART everyone in those classes will benefit.

 

[deafdyke]

So you are blaming parents like me that want to ensure our children have equal access to the curriulum.

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs. If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART. It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter. And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.
Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.
Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign. Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

 

[shel90]

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs. If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART. It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter. And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.
Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.
Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign. Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

U got a good point there..

 

[Nesmuth]

Jackie,

The CART display was taken down and will be back up next tuesday at the booth.

Richard

 

[shel90]

I come from a deaf family and I am really upset to see the negativity towards Jackie...she has chosen to raise her children Oral who are we to judge her. We all have to make the right choices for our children. I believe that if the CART was invented years ago more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom. I think we should look at the differences in public schools versus residential schools and how the students language skills are. So many deaf ppl can't understand the English grammar. This is sad since they are productive citizens who are also in the workforce along with their hearing peers. Give Samnatha the CART everyone in those classes will benefit.

Oh really..more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom? Do u hold deaf schools solely responsible for deaf children's struggles with literacy?

If that's the case, then why are so many deaf children are being referred to the deaf schools due to falling behind in literacy skills AT the public schools? Then, it is the deaf schools who have to do so much remedial work to get those children caught up and then get the blame from the public for children graduating with lower literacy rates?

Why dont we just shut down all deaf schools while we are at it?

 

[jillio]

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs. If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART. It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter. And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.
Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.
Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign. Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

YES!!! You broke that down beautifully, dd.

 

[jillio]

Oh really..more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom? Do u hold deaf schools solely responsible for deaf children's struggles with literacy?

If that's the case, then why are so many deaf children are being referred to the deaf schools due to falling behind in literacy skills AT the public schools? Then, it is the deaf schools who have to do so much remedial work to get those children caught up and then get the blame from the public for children graduating with lower literacy rates?

Why dont we just shut down all deaf schools while we are at it?

Exactly the point. Mainstreaming is responsible for so many of the problems we are seeing today.

 

[SJCSue]

Oh really..more deaf children would have been educated in a public classroom? Do u hold deaf schools solely responsible for deaf children's struggles with literacy?

If that's the case, then why are so many deaf children are being referred to the deaf schools due to falling behind in literacy skills AT the public schools? Then, it is the deaf schools who have to do so much remedial work to get those children caught up and then get the blame from the public for children graduating with lower literacy rates?

Why dont we just shut down all deaf schools while we are at it?

Please tell her about your experiences as a teacher of deaf children. Then, she will understand your point.

 

[SJCSue]

No.......b/c your children ALREADY have equal access to the curriculm. If they don't, then how come they are doing so well academicly? If your kid did not have equal access to the curriculm, then they'd be failing or getting Ds or Cs. If your child was doing that badly, even as an oral person, we would be totally 100% supportive of her getting CART. It just seems that you want to use CART to get an "edge" for your daughter. And I mean there's no evidence whatsoever that CART will even really improve your daughter's grades so you won't have to pre and post teach. You're just thinking it will b/c it's the newest thing.
Hey, I know so many people who would be so beyond glad if their kids were doing as well as your daughter currently is with just a notetaker.
Oh, and the fact that you have to pre and post teach PROVES that oralism has its faults. If your kids were indeed oral sucesses, you wouldn't need to pre and post teach them. They would just very easily pick it up. That is why most dhh kids can and should be exposed to Sign. Most dhh kids are strong VISUAL learners. Oralism does NOTHING to capitalize on that. Maybe if your daughter had grown up bilingal, (in both speech AND sign) you wouldn't be having to pre and post teach, b/c she would use 'terps, and so she could just concentrate on picking up content rather then having to work really hard at listening and talking. (and trust me, even for a kid who is a STRONG aural learner, I gotta say that hearing and talking takes a LOT out of you!)

Last fall, I made the Dean's List at my college WITH only a notetaker and a FM system. I also made the Honor Roll for at least 8 quarters with only extended time and a quiet room to take my tests in. Does this prove your point, DD?