District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

What kinds of difficulties did they face that would separate them from non CI users that were raised orally only? Any differences or similarities? Just curious cuz I keep getting told that I cant compare myself to CI users cuz I dont have one. Well, if that's the case then what are the differences?

There are several differences. Say you have a profound hearing loss/corner audiogram. Then even with the most powerful hearing aids you might be able to hear some of the speech sounds but not most. With a cochlear implant it doesn't matter what your hearing loss is you will be able to hear all speech sounds. It is just now you have to put meaning to the sounds you hear. This is where some kids have problems we know they can hear the sounds but does it make sense to them.
My daugher has a severe to profound to severe hearing loss. Aided with hearing aides she is able to hear most speech sounds but not all at a close range but if I would call her from another room before she got implanted she could not hear me, whereas her brother would tell her mom is calling you. Now with her implant she can localize sounds and can hear me from one room to another.
Also before getting implanted my daughter was not able to use the phone, and now she can.

 

[shel90]

I am curious..are the supporters for oral only programs for young children for there to meet the parents' needs first?

That's why I strongly believe that by offering both approaches would ensure to meet the parents' needs and childrens' needs at the same time and then as the children get older, they can decide if they are more comfortable in an oral-only or being fully mainstreamed with hearing kids only, use both, or just be with deaf children and ASL only.


Why do many parents continue insist on the oral-only approach when so many deaf people who used to grow up oral-only have expressed our wishes to have both instead of one only?

 

[netrox]

For a school to deny the deaf student's equal access to English is a serious violation of ADA and I would sue the hell out of that school.

I personally prefer captioning over signing. It helps you know the exact words they say while ASL, you use translated words to signs which say nothing ... absolutely NOTHING about the English words, just concepts so how can a student possibly learn new words?

 

[shel90]

There are several differences. Say you have a profound hearing loss/corner audiogram. Then even with the most powerful hearing aids you might be able to hear some of the speech sounds but not most. With a cochlear implant it doesn't matter what your hearing loss is you will be able to hear all speech sounds. It is just now you have to put meaning to the sounds you hear. This is where some kids have problems we know they can hear the sounds but does it make sense to them.
My daugher has a severe to profound to severe hearing loss. Aided with hearing aides she is able to hear most speech sounds but not all at a close range but if I would call her from another room before she got implanted she could not hear me, whereas her brother would tell her mom is calling you. Now with her implant she can localize sounds and can hear me from one room to another.
Also before getting implanted my daughter was not able to use the phone, and now she can.

I am sorry but the question was for Jillo only.I already know that about the hearing differences and thank u for answering them but that wasnt what I was asking about. I was asking about differences and similarities to the experiences of being raised oral-only without exposure to sign language and other deaf people. Since Jillo is working with the first wave of CI users, I was asking her specifically.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

There aren't any differences. The CI users that were raised and educated orally are having the same problems that HA users raised and educated orally were having prior to CI becoming available. That's what is so frustrating. They can't seem to understand that a deaf child that functions as an HH child, whether they are assisted by HA or CI is the same.

Jillo there is a big difference with a profoundly deaf child who wears a hearing aide or has a cochlear implant. There is no way you can deny this. Yes, CI kid functions like a person who has a mild to slightly moderate hearing loss. A profoundly deaf child that hears below 100DB and wears HA cannot hear all speech sounds. You cannot aide someone with 100db hearing loss or more to 20 to 30db, which the average place that a person with CI is aided too.

 

[shel90]

I have never said there is anything wrong with using sign language in an educational setting. Sign language was not our choice but I never ever said that sign language is bad choice but it was not our choice. Parents have the right to choose they route they want. I just want parents to have all the information to make inform decisions.
AGAIN, My children do very well with their CI'S since both you and Jillo work in a educational anvirnoment you understand about background noise. This is an area that is hard for most people who have a hearing loss no matter what the lose is. Background noise makes it hardier for my children to understand and hear everything that is going on. The other reason that my daughter needs CART is because in a typical classroom the students particpate in classroom discussions. This is an area that my daughter has a lot of problems understanding everybody talking at the same time. During classroom discussions it would be hard for a signing student to understand everything because an interpeter cannot interpet everything when there are several students talking whereas a CART provider has to be able to type 220 words per minute.

In an all-signing classroom, there would be no problems for any deaf children to be fully involved in classroom discussions but since being oral is what most parents want, this problem will probably continue and there will have to be continued court cases with the public schools to get them to provide all children equal access to the information.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

YOU GOT IT, SHEL! They can't argue both sides of the issue. Either CI has integrated their children into the hearing world or it hasn't. And the issue does seem to be about the use of sign, not full access.

The issue of getting CART has is only about getting full access.

 

[shel90]

For a school to deny the deaf student's equal access to English is a serious violation of ADA and I would sue the hell out of that school.

I personally prefer captioning over signing. It helps you know the exact words they say while ASL, you use translated words to signs which say nothing ... absolutely NOTHING about the English words, just concepts so how can a student possibly learn new words?

How do deaf children from deaf families learn new words? Simple as that...read, read, read, participate in full discussions about what they read with their classmates for higher congnitive thinking, and then write about what they have read and discussed. It is more fun that way. However, since most deaf kids are mainstreamed and are unable to participate in classroom discussions like their hearing counterparts are able to, the CART would be the only device that can make it possible but that means the typist would have to type really fast! I used a CART in college classes and I was always 2 lines behind the lecture..the kids would have to be very quick at reading and quick to jump in the discussions.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

There aren't any differences. The CI users that were raised and educated orally are having the same problems that HA users raised and educated orally were having prior to CI becoming available. That's what is so frustrating. They can't seem to understand that a deaf child that functions as an HH child, whether they are assisted by HA or CI is the same.

There are major differences. What a child with a profound hearing loss can do with HA and a implant is very major. A child with a profound hearing loss depending on their exact hearing loss can maybe hear some of the middle speech sounds that is if they have a upper profound hearing loss say between 95db and 105 db and have hearing across the board. Children with implants can hear all speech sounds, the difference are that some kids with implants cannot make use of what they hear for different reasons but they can hear the speech sounds.

With the statement you made it makes it clear how closed minded you are.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Jackie,

First, how did it go when you appeared before the Commission the other day?

Second, pay no attention to Jillio she just a troll. I was going to comment further but her reply to you in 592 just shows how desperate she is.

My reply was to Jackie, not to you. Therefore, your reply is not necessary. And your name calling is further evidence that you are simply unable to support your arguments with solid fact. Hence, you attempt to divert the issues with childish tactics. That is indication of TRUE desperation.

Third, you made very good points about the difference between what people without cis and those with cis can hear. It has been said many times that you just cannot compare one's experiences growing up in the pre-ci era with those of the ci kids of today. My daughter is profoundly deaf, a clssic "left corner audigram" even with the most powerful HAs she heard virtually nothing but with her ci it goes so far beyond just one to one conversation but being able to talk on the phone, when she is either in a different room or even floor in our house, down the street and so on. But these are only a few examples and they are not being cited merely to show just what they hear but as examples of how being able to hear allows them to participate in the fabric of everyday life. For her and for many other thousands of other cis kids, the cochlear implant has removed or lessened obstacles in their lives, barriers between them and the over 99% of the rest of their world that does not use a manual language and generally made their lives easier.


where exactly did you get the statistic that 99% of the world is oral? Pull it out of your buttt like most of your other statistics? AND, once agian, you read what you want to. No one has said that CI is not beneficial. What we have said, and will continue to say, is that it does not remove all barriers and does not allow a deaf child tofunction as a hearing child, but as an HH child. If it solved all the problems and removed all of the barriers, the issue of Jackie requesting CART for her own children would never have arisen. They wouldn't need it because they could function as hearing children. You defeat your own arguments.

As you know the first wave of ci kids are just starting to hit college. It will be exciting over the next 10-15 years as they graduate and begin to take their place within both the mainstream and the deaf community.

Finally, you keep doing what your doing and if the use of the media helps your daughter in her case, then by all means use the press to her advantage. I guess the press is really just another "tool" in your toolbox approach to winning your case!

Yeah, lets just throw these kids out there in front of the media and see if we can't make their differences even more obvious to everyone. I thought the CI wa supposed to provide integration so that the hearing loss wasn't an issue. This tactic falls back on the old "this child is different, not the same" argument. Yet you and jackie continually argue that your children are jsut like the hearing children intheir classrooms. Whcih is it? Does it change according to your purpose and whim?

Jillo I have never said that my children are just like the hearing kids in their class. Yes, they are able to the work and have the same abilities as the hearing kids with the exception that they are deaf and that they cannot hear everything in a classroom because of the background noises and when there are more then one person talking it is hard for them to hear what everybody is talking about.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

AMEN!!!! Why doesn't that surprise me?
Rick and Jackie, what you two don't understand is that HH is HH no matter WHAT the device is! There are and were still a significent minority of severe and profounders who are pretty much functionally hh WITH hearing aids. CI kids are NOT plowing new ground. HH with hearing aid kids have already been there and done that! They have NOT assimulated too well into society. There's still RAMPENT unemployment, drug abuse, alchohol abuse, realtionship issues etc etc etc among hh kids! Yes, I know that your view on these things might be really biased b/c your kids have done well, and b/c you're affliated with an organization that seems to really attract oral sucesses (and sucesses in all defintions)
Just b/c a small number have done well, it doesn't mean EVERYONE has done that well. Ten or twenty years ago when hearing aids were more popular, parents like you were all but assured "Yes! Your child can and will suceed in the mainstream hearing world!" Gee *looks around* Doesn't seem like that happened. And most of THOSE kids were like yours........There willbe some acheivers, but I think history is just gonna repeat itself.

Deafdyke, if you do not want to accept the differences that is on you, I don't care. A child with a profound hearing loss who wears HA if they have an upper profound hearing loss are may be able to hear some of the middle speech sounds, with a cochear implant they are able to hear all the speech sounds. Yes, these kids still function like a HH person but what the difference is; they function like a person with a mild hearing loss whereas with a HA they would be functioning like a person with a severe hearing loss. This is what the difference; what a person with a mild hearing loss can hear vs someone with a severe hearing loss. BIG DIFFERENCE

 

[jillio]

I agree. Closed minded is the refusal to accept other ideas and proof of fallacy EVEN IN THE FACE OF EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. And that is exactly what you are doing.

I doubt seriously that you will pass this information on to other parents, as you have not even accepted it in your own case.

So, your children are leaning toward finding that sameness of experience that we speak of when advising that childrenshould be exposed to deaf culture, and despite oral skills, it is never possible to fully integrate into hearing society. Thanks. You have supported my position with your admissions.

And, taking your children to these events, and actually participating inthem yourself is two different things. Do you yourself attend Deaf events? Ever even been to a silent dinner? Indirect involvement is not involvement at all. And as the foundation of Deaf Culture is their minority status based on cultural and linguistic difference, the signing aspect is crucial.

Why do you insist on playing the victim? Poor wittle jackie is being picked on. AWWWWW. Anytime you are faced with evidence that contradicts your personaly held philospohy, you want to claim that you are being bashed. Once again, it is not you that I object to, it is the oral only philosophy that you subscribe to. And if you find some of these questions difficult to answer, it is because they do not have viable answers that can be supported, not that anyone is picking on you. Get a grip. I hope you can behave for like an adult in the courtroom.

And unfortunately, illogical reasons for hanging onto an outmoded philosophy seems to be good enough for you, so no, I do not hope to change your mind. But what I do hope is to prevent other parents from falling into your trap.

I have contact with other parents on a consistent basis. You forget, not only do I work at the college level with students, I also provide counseling services for deaf adolescents and their parents. The fact that you are in the early intervention field is exactly what creates the problems that later need to be corrected. And the fact that you refuse to open your mind and take note of these problems will most certainly guarantee that they will continue.

You would enter another thread in order to learn the facts,a nd become familiar with what the deaf community has to say about the ways in which the policies that you support have had a negative effect on them. You would enter another thread to find information that will improve your ability to serve your deaf students. You would enter another thread to gaina little insight regarding your own children. You would enter another thread to form friendships with Deaf/deaf people, and to learn a little more about the culture that undoubtedly become a part of your own children's lives as they grow to adulthood. But the, I guess learning is not something you are very interested in.

And as I and others have said before, the issues being discussed here were perhaps prompted by the new article that was posted in regard to your daughter, but the issues are not about your daughter. They are about deaf children as a group. When you came in here, the discussion was about the educaiton ands provision of services for deaf children a a group. You are the one that has made it all about your daughter, and in doing so, have opened yourself up to criticism. Take some responsibility for your own actions.

Evidently, you are incapable of providing ALL of the information to parents, as you are woefully uninformed regarding the issues yourself.

 

[jillio]

There are several differences. Say you have a profound hearing loss/corner audiogram. Then even with the most powerful hearing aids you might be able to hear some of the speech sounds but not most. With a cochlear implant it doesn't matter what your hearing loss is you will be able to hear all speech sounds. It is just now you have to put meaning to the sounds you hear. This is where some kids have problems we know they can hear the sounds but does it make sense to them.
My daugher has a severe to profound to severe hearing loss. Aided with hearing aides she is able to hear most speech sounds but not all at a close range but if I would call her from another room before she got implanted she could not hear me, whereas her brother would tell her mom is calling you. Now with her implant she can localize sounds and can hear me from one room to another.
Also before getting implanted my daughter was not able to use the phone, and now she can.

Once again, you bring everything back to your daughter.

That is not the question shel was asking, nor was she addressing it to you. She is asking if college aged CI users are experiencing educational difficulties that set them apart from non CI users that were raised orally. And the answer to that is NO! They continue to exhibit the same deficits and the same problems that oral children without CI have.

 

[jillio]

Jillo I have never said that my children are just like the hearing kids in their class. Yes, they are able to the work and have the same abilities as the hearing kids with the exception that they are deaf and that they cannot hear everything in a classroom because of the background noises and when there are more then one person talking it is hard for them to hear what everybody is talking about.

And you have just stated the biggest argument against oral education. Keep talking. You are making this easier and easier. Why don't you go the the Sign Language and Oralsim forum, and read the thread regarding scientific findings regarding oral education?

 

[shel90]

Deafdyke, if you do not want to accept the differences that is on you, I don't care. A child with a profound hearing loss who wears HA if they have an upper profound hearing loss are may be able to hear some of the middle speech sounds, with a cochear implant they are able to hear all the speech sounds. Yes, these kids still function like a HH person but what the difference is; they function like a person with a mild hearing loss whereas with a HA they would be functioning like a person with a severe hearing loss. This is what the difference; what a person with a mild hearing loss can hear vs someone with a severe hearing loss. BIG DIFFERENCE

Deafdyke is HH and she has experienced difficulties growing up with the oral only approach and has expressed her wishes to have sign language too according to her old posts from old threads.

 

[shel90]

There are major differences. What a child with a profound hearing loss can do with HA and a implant is very major. A child with a profound hearing loss depending on their exact hearing loss can maybe hear some of the middle speech sounds that is if they have a upper profound hearing loss say between 95db and 105 db and have hearing across the board. Children with implants can hear all speech sounds, the difference are that some kids with implants cannot make use of what they hear for different reasons but they can hear the speech sounds.
With the statement you made it makes it clear how closed minded you are.

That right there is a good reason to give them a visual language because how do we know what they are actually "hearing" or not "hearing"? By the time we find out, it is usually too late and they are falling behind. Nobody knows until they are like around 3 to 5 years old and that's a lot of years of language development missed.

 

[jillio]

That right there is a good reason to give them a visual language because how do we know what they are actually "hearing" or not "hearing"? By the time we find out, it is usually too late and they are falling behind. Nobody knows until they are like around 3 to 5 years old and that's a lot of years of language development missed.

Exactly! If they can't make use of the damn sounds, then what exactly is the benefit of hearing them?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

For a school to deny the deaf student's equal access to English is a serious violation of ADA and I would sue the hell out of that school.

I personally prefer captioning over signing. It helps you know the exact words they say while ASL, you use translated words to signs which say nothing ... absolutely NOTHING about the English words, just concepts so how can a student possibly learn new words?

Yes we are suing them and ADA is involved

 

[jackiesolorzano]

I agree. Closed minded is the refusal to accept other ideas and proof of fallacy EVEN IN THE FACE OF EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. And that is exactly what you are doing.

I doubt seriously that you will pass this information on to other parents, as you have not even accepted it in your own case.

So, your children are leaning toward finding that sameness of experience that we speak of when advising that childrenshould be exposed to deaf culture, and despite oral skills, it is never possible to fully integrate into hearing society. Thanks. You have supported my position with your admissions.

d, taking your children to these events, and actually participating inthem yourself is two different things. Do you yourself attend Deaf events? Ever even been to a silent dinner? Indirect involvement is not involvement at all. And as the foundation of Deaf Culture is their minority status based on cultural and linguistic difference, the signing aspect is crucial.

Yes, I drive my children and attend these functions.

Why do you insist on playing the victim? Poor wittle jackie is being picked on. AWWWWW. Anytime you are faced with evidence that contradicts your personaly held philospohy, you want to claim that you are being bashed. Once again, it is not you that I object to, it is the oral only philosophy that you subscribe to. And if you find some of these questions difficult to answer, it is because they do not have viable answers that can be supported, not that anyone is picking on you. Get a grip. I hope you can behave for like an adult in the courtroom.



And unfortunately, illogical reasons for hanging onto an outmoded philosophy seems to be good enough for you, so no, I do not hope to change your mind. But what I do hope is to prevent other parents from falling into your trap.

I have contact with other parents on a consistent basis. You forget, not only do I work at the college level with students, I also provide counseling services for deaf adolescents and their parents. The fact that you are in the early intervention field is exactly what creates the problems that later need to be corrected. And the fact that you refuse to open your mind and take note of these problems will most certainly guarantee that they will continue.

You would enter another thread in order to learn the facts,a nd become familiar with what the deaf community has to say about the ways in which the policies that you support have had a negative effect on them. You would enter another thread to find information that will improve your ability to serve your deaf students. You would enter another thread to gaina little insight regarding your own children. You would enter another thread to form friendships with Deaf/deaf people, and to learn a little more about the culture that undoubtedly become a part of your own children's lives as they grow to adulthood. But the, I guess learning is not something you are very interested in.

And as I and others have said before, the issues being discussed here were perhaps prompted by the new article that was posted in regard to your daughter, but the issues are not about your daughter. They are about deaf children as a group. When you came in here, the discussion was about the educaiton ands provision of services for deaf children a a group. You are the one that has made it all about your daughter, and in doing so, have opened yourself up to criticism. Take some responsibility for your own actions.

Evidently, you are incapable of providing ALL of the information to parents, as you are woefully uninformed regarding the issues yourself.

I have heard of people like you but never really knew they exist.

 

[jillio]

I am curious..are the supporters for oral only programs for young children for there to meet the parents' needs first? That is exactly whose needs they are meeting.

That's why I strongly believe that by offering both approaches would ensure to meet the parents' needs and childrens' needs at the same time and then as the children get older, they can decide if they are more comfortable in an oral-only or being fully mainstreamed with hearing kids only, use both, or just be with deaf children and ASL only.

Right. Becasue isn't the whole topic supposed to be about what the kids need?


Why do many parents continue insist on the oral-only approach when so many deaf people who used to grow up oral-only have expressed our wishes to have both instead of one only?

It's called "selective deafness." Not an inablitity to hear but the refusal to do so. And they refuse to listen to those who have gone before and could provide assistance, because that would be admitting that their child is, God forbid! deaf.