District files appeal against deaf student

[deafdyke]

The one advantage that I see with oral language it just gives my children more opportunties. I know though that oralism is not for everyone. And I can see your point. I am so happy that my children are able to read and write at their grade level or very close to it.

That's only b/c you bought the theories and arguements of pro oral folks.
(that talking and listening= freedom/ more oppertunties)
Being orally skilled is good. I mean god, its just like being able to speak English if you're a Hispanic immigrant. But being oral ONLY really doesn't confer any extra advantages. Oh, and Jackie, there are a lot of oral kids who have significent issues with reading. It's not just Signing kids.
Oh, and Jackie, there are TONS of accomondations that oral people need. I know that the most common reason cited for going oral only is so they don't have to depend on a 'terp. BUT what about all the other accomondations that oral only people need, like FM devices, ORAL 'terps (ever hear of those?), and others that aren't coming to mind right now. Why don't they promote dependancy like a 'terp does?

since I dont speak clearly at some times.

EXCELLENT point!
NOT EVERYONE speaks totally clearly. My best friend grew up oral. Her speech skills are just HORRIBLE. Like very few people can undy her. As a result she grew up pretty much isolated and alone and just now started her first real relationship. I still get "what? what?" a lot...........Oral skills are awesome, but oral only is just so flawed. Oral is built on the assumption that a dhh kid will be able to speak clearly. But what if they don't? What if they end up having the spoken language skills of a four year old, when they are supposed to be learning how to read?

 

[jackiesolorzano]

She isn't required to do in-service?

And believe it or not, it is easier to get CART for signers than for oral students for the reasons I have cited previously.

Maybe in your area it is easier to get CART but in ours it is not. From what I have been told it is quite easy to get CART in college. It is at the high school level that it is not easy. Out of 8 high schools that are currently using CART only one high school uses it from their signing students. The funding for that program came from RIT. The other 7 high school use CART for their oral deaf/HH students.

From my understanding there isn't a lot of in-services, I think my friend told me that they have to attend 4 a year and they have never had one on CART.

 

[rick48]

No one says you should set her up to fail. But, just as your attorney has pointed out, don't you see where your attitude has contributed to the situation you are currently experiencing? You have made it easy for the school system to deny services.

What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate. She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive. She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle. Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

 

[jillio]

Maybe in your area it is easier to get CART but in ours it is not. From what I have been told it is quite easy to get CART in college. It is at the high school level that it is not easy. Out of 8 high schools that are currently using CART only one high school uses it from their signing students. The funding for that program came from RIT. The other 7 high school use CART for their oral deaf/HH students.

From my understanding there isn't a lot of in-services, I think my friend told me that they have to attend 4 a year and they have never had one on CART.

You're a certified teacher of the deaf. Don't you have to attend in-service? And, yeah, there's grant money out there to fund the programs. What the hell do the other high schools do for their signing students. If they have CART available for the oral students, why not for the signing students. Unless of course, they are oral programs.

 

[jillio]

What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.
She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.
As have many parents. What makes her so special?
She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.
Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.
Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

 

[rick48]

[/B]
The opportunity clause is one that I hear parents who have chosen the oral method us over and over to justify their choices. Exactly what opportunities are you speaking of?

I just don't understand this. If you know they are deaf and miss information, why is it not important to provide communication that will allow them to get that information?

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

I know that the concept that there are many well adjusted and happy kids who just happen to be oral is too difficult for you to understand but that is the price you pay for always thinking that you are right and that there is only one way to raise a deaf child. Perhaps if you were not so intolerant and close-minded in your views, your comprehension would increase.

Also, as is patently evident from other issues regarding the oral deaf community: you just don't get it. Parents, such as myself and others on this board, do not need to "justify" our choices to anyone and certainly not to you. When we relate real life examples of what are children are doing or have accomplished, it is not to "justify" our choices to you. Talk about being egocentric! Do you really think we need or seek your approval and/or understanding of the choices we made for our children? When we relate our stories and experiences about our children it is to help others who may be considering various options for either themselves or for their children and to combat the misinformation that still exists.

 

[rick48]

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

I do not read too much into that, especially as it is necessary to do so if they want to argue against an award of attorney's fees.

No, I am not Jackie's attorney, just a supportive parent who cares about the education of children.

Truth? You can't handle the truth -JN Truth is that you cannot stand to give credit to anyone who does not agree with you. Jackie stood up to you and now you take every opportunity to belittle her. You are so transparent.

You just do not get it and never will.

 

[jillio]

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

And those same opportunities are available for signing deaf. What, you have to be oral to be educated, be close to your family, and have successful friendships? You are more narrow minded and ignorant than I suspected.

I know that the concept that there are many well adjusted and happy kids who just happen to be oral is too difficult for you to understand but that is the price you pay for always thinking that you are right and that there is only one way to raise a deaf child. Perhaps if you were not so intolerant and close-minded in your views, your comprehension would increase.

Unfortunately, I do comprehend the issues...it is you who doesn't. Break outof your little self protective box, and look around you. Develop a little empathy for the deaf children that are still being undereducated--many of them with oralist parents such as yourself.

Also, as is patently evident from other issues regarding the oral deaf community: you just don't get it. Parents, such as myself and others on this board, do not need to "justify" our choices to anyone and certainly not to you. When we relate real life examples of what are children are doing or have accomplished, it is not to "justify" our choices to you. Talk about being egocentric! Do you really think we need or seek your approval and/or understanding of the choices we made for our children? When we relate our stories and experiences about our children it is to help others who may be considering various options for either themselves or for their children and to combat the misinformation that still exists.

I would certianly hope you don't need my approval, because you aren't going to get it. And the biggest misconception out there is that oral children suceed more, and have more opportunity than signing children. Or that oral children are better educated and more integrated into the hearing world. Or that oral children will have more opportunity and better relationships. In short, everything you preach. You are the one that brought your children to this board. Boo, hoo, you didn't get the response you were looking for.

 

[jillio]

I do not read too much into that, especially as it is necessary to do so if they want to argue against an award of attorney's fees.
Her attorney isn't charging her remember? Doing out of the goodness of his heart.
No, I am not Jackie's attorney, just a supportive parent who cares about the education of children.
You care about the education f only those who you consider to be following the same philosophy as yourself. You haqve made that very apparent.

Truth? You can't handle the truth -JN Truth is that you cannot stand to give credit to anyone who does not agree with you. Jackie stood up to you and now you take every opportunity to belittle her. You are so transparent.

And you are pitiful. Jackie has yet to answer numerous questions posed to her not just by me, but other posters as well. Asking pertinent questions is hardly belittling--unless of course those questions can't be answered because they point out the inconsistencies inthe argument. And you, as well, have failed to answer some very telling questions. You are what could be considered "twice oral" because you continuously talk out of both sides of your mouth.

You just do not get it and never will.

I'm not the one who fails to get it. Despite evidence against the strictly oral appoach, you hang onto an outdated philosophy that is responsible for the undereducation and isolation of deaf children for the last 200 years. How much longer is it going to take to get the message across?

BTW...have you made that donation to St. Rita yet, or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth on that one too?

 

[deafdyke]

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

Rick, those are all very subjective and not really solid. You're insistitating that Sign kids are unemployed/on disabilty, poorly educated etc.
But I know many Sign folks who are employed (and not just as baggers or at Burger King or Wal-Mart) and I know many signers who are Harvard level educated. It's just that a lot of hearing parents tend to fall for the theory that oral only is a tool that totally equalizes dhh kids.
You know if oral only DID equalize dhh people, then they wouldn't need accomondations like CART, special ed, notetaking, etc etc.

 

[shel90]

Rick, those are all very subjective and not really solid. You're insistitating that Sign kids are unemployed/on disabilty, poorly educated etc.
But I know many Sign folks who are employed (and not just as baggers or at Burger King or Wal-Mart) and I know many signers who are Harvard level educated. It's just that a lot of hearing parents tend to fall for the theory that oral only is a tool that totally equalizes dhh kids.
You know if oral only DID equalize dhh people, then they wouldn't need accomondations like CART, special ed, notetaking, etc etc.

Bingo! I feel more successful both professionally and personally with ASL in my life than just being oral-only. Most important of all is feeling good about myself and having more confidence as opposed to the extremely self-consicous person I was before I learned signing and was always worried about missing out on anything or misunderstanding people. With ASL a big part of my life now, those fear have been quelched..

 

[jag]

Nope..not cheaper..probably more expensive. However, due to the child's fragile health and risk of serious injury or even death WILL make the school provide whatever needs to ensure that doesnt happen cuz the schools dont want to be held liable.

However, a deaf child who has CIs who is performing on his/her grade level or better is more likely viewed differently and not as a liability.

Hope that makes sense?

Actually I'm aware.

My point is that unless the parents of children are willing to go through due process and take the refusals to court then the schools will continue to 'win'.
The parents in the case I mentioned DID take the school district through due process and then throug the courts, in this case the family IS working to get the supports their child needs. And they aren't backing down. One must always thank those who are willing to plow ahead and work their rears off to get things their children need, rather then give up when they're told it isn't needed.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

You're a certified teacher of the deaf. Don't you have to attend in-service? And, yeah, there's grant money out there to fund the programs. What the hell do the other high schools do for their signing students. If they have CART available for the oral students, why not for the signing students. Unless of course, they are oral programs.

Yes, I have to attend several in-services a year. Most of them are not directly related to the population of students that I work with. I find on my own different workshops and conferences that are directly related to my field. I am very lucky that my school district supports me in my quest to gain greater knowledge in my field. Last year my SD paid the conference fee for me to attend a week long training in Canada. I paid for airfare and hotel. I am currently being mentor by a cert AVT, my school gives me the time I need to observe her. I am also on a committee that just deals with cochlear implants students and providing trainings to other teachers that have cochlear implant students. These things I seek out my district does not make me attend them but they do support me and pay for most of the fees. I have friends who also attend these conferences but they have to pay for all these fees themselves.
In my area, what schools do for their signing high schools students is provide them an interpeter. They will not provide CART but I am hoping once our case is settle these students will be able to also get CART. There is a high school in Orange County that was able to provide CART and an interpeter through a grant from RIT but that grant is over. That school is now providing an interpeter and I think it is C-print. But it is very rare for a school to do both.
They do provide CART for all Oral students. In most school districts they have to fight for it. The only school district they do not need to fight for it is Los Angeles USD. There the only thing they need is for the student to be fully mainstream and to be able to read close to grade level.

 

[jag]

The main point I mean by this is that they will have more job opportunties if they are able to be oral

Not to mention that when standing in a hall waiting for co workers to get done discussing something a person will actually have a fairly decent idea of what the h-LL they're talking about if they are 'oral'. vs the person who relies on ASL and stands there not knowing what the heck anyone is talking about. One doesn't 'need' to have college level english skills to follow verbal conversations, just need to be able ot hear. And being hoh with CI would put you in that level. Having been in the hoh with HA level while not fun (stress of having to follow conversation and missing some of it) at least it's eaiser to find out from someone nearby what's going on.

I watched a deaf co worker stand around at the team meetings not knowing what's going on or knowing what everyone's laughing about....I thought I had it bad, but to me that was worse, and less you think that people ignored him, no they didn't he did develope a raport with his co workers, but the truth is not being able to hear did seem to impact his life in daily assignment meetings where there was no terp and communication had to wait til the lead could write his assignment down. He was provided a terp at quarterly meetings and inservices.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Originally Posted by rick48
What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.

Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them.

She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.
As have many parents. What makes her so special?
She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.

Exactly

Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.

Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6

Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents
But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there.

who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

What opportunities?: employment, education, family relationships, social to name just a few.

I know that the concept that there are many well adjusted and happy kids who just happen to be oral is too difficult for you to understand but that is the price you pay for always thinking that you are right and that there is only one way to raise a deaf child.

Such a great point. Jillo you think there is only one way to raise a child. You are just so wrong and closed mind. If we can accept that there are more then one way to raise a deaf child why can't you.

Perhaps if you were not so intolerant and close-minded in your views, your comprehension would increase.

Also, as is patently evident from other issues regarding the oral deaf community: you just don't get it. Parents, such as myself and others on this board, do not need to "justify" our choices to anyone and certainly not to you.

Great point. I could care less Jillo what you think because I know how closed minded you are. Think goodness there are many other members of the Deaf culture are not like you.

When we relate real life examples of what are children are doing or have accomplished, it is not to "justify" our choices to you.

So right, Jillo you have mention over and over again how I must be insecure with my decisions. I can assure you that I am not insecure at all. I made inform decision that work out wonderfully for my children. I know that the decisions I made are not for everyone. I also know that I could care less what you think. I also know that they are amazing caring open minded people in the Deaf culture. And these type of people I will always make sure my children have a connection with.

Talk about being egocentric! Do you really think we need or seek your approval and/or understanding of the choices we made for our children? When we relate our stories and experiences about our children it is to help others who may be considering various options for either themselves or for their children and to combat the misinformation that still exists.

Ric you are so right in your points

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Not to mention that when standing in a hall waiting for co workers to get done discussing something a person will actually have a fairly decent idea of what the h-LL they're talking about if they are 'oral'. vs the person who relies on ASL and stands there not knowing what the heck anyone is talking about. One doesn't 'need' to have college level english skills to follow verbal conversations, just need to be able ot hear. And being hoh with CI would put you in that level. Having been in the hoh with HA level while not fun (stress of having to follow conversation and missing some of it) at least it's eaiser to find out from someone nearby what's going on.

I watched a deaf co worker stand around at the team meetings not knowing what's going on or knowing what everyone's laughing about....I thought I had it bad, but to me that was worse, and less you think that people ignored him, no they didn't he did develope a raport with his co workers, but the truth is not being able to hear did seem to impact his life in daily assignment meetings where there was no terp and communication had to wait til the lead could write his assignment down. He was provided a terp at quarterly meetings and inservices.

I was just talking to new teacher next door to me. The class next to me is a TC class. I feel so happy to have this teacher next door, really nice lady, smart and from the Deaf culture but has an open mind to different approaches. She has some oral skills and with my limited signing we are able to communicate very well. She was telling me that our prinicpal took her to meet the school prinicpal. She said she had no idea what they were talking about because neither knew sign language. She said she felt very frustrated. I was thinking that this wouldn't happen to my daughter because she can hear not everything but she can hear.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Shel,
I am not sure if you mention on this thread or another. You mention how you have good oral skills but it still is hard for you to understand people and at times it is hard for people to understand you. What I want to tell you and I do not mean to offend you is that you cannot compare your oral skills to my children's oral skills. Both of my children are able to talk and listen on the phone. We are able to talk about anything and it deosn't matter if it is a cell phone or landline. On Wednesday I was on a radio show after the show my son called me on my cell phone and he was telling me what I said on the show. Am I wrong to assume you cannot understand what is being said on a radio and you cannot talk on the phone. My children can understand me if I am in bathroom with the door closed. My son really doesn't have any lipreading skills. My daughter is a much better lip reader. But they are both very depended on the hearing they have. So saying that you have diffculty with your oral skills with hearing people does not mean that my children will.

 

[jillio]

Yes, I have to attend several in-services a year. Most of them are not directly related to the population of students that I work with. I find on my own different workshops and conferences that are directly related to my field. I am very lucky that my school district supports me in my quest to gain greater knowledge in my field. Last year my SD paid the conference fee for me to attend a week long training in Canada. I paid for airfare and hotel. I am currently being mentor by a cert AVT, my school gives me the time I need to observe her. I am also on a committee that just deals with cochlear implants students and providing trainings to other teachers that have cochlear implant students. These things I seek out my district does not make me attend them but they do support me and pay for most of the fees. I have friends who also attend these conferences but they have to pay for all these fees themselves.
In my area, what schools do for their signing high schools students is provide them an interpeter. They will not provide CART but I am hoping once our case is settle these students will be able to also get CART. There is a high school in Orange County that was able to provide CART and an interpeter through a grant from RIT but that grant is over. That school is now providing an interpeter and I think it is C-print. But it is very rare for a school to do both.
They do provide CART for all Oral students. In most school districts they have to fight for it. The only school district they do not need to fight for it is Los Angeles USD. There the only thing they need is for the student to be fully mainstream and to be able to read close to grade level.

CART for oral students and not for signing studens is blatant discrimination. Why should an oral student be entitled to an accommodation that provides visual materials to oral deaf students and not to signing deaf students?

 

[jillio]

Originally Posted by rick48
What a terribly mean spirited thing to say.

There is nothing mean spirited in it. Ubless of course, you see the truth as mean spirited.
What are you, her attorney?

It is mean spirited. You said that because I help my children so much that I am making the case hardier. I need to what is best for my children even if it makes the case hardier.

And you said your attorney told you the same thing.

Jackie's "attitude" is one that more parents should try to emulate.
And the more parents that emulate her oralist attitude, the more deaf children will suffer. But I suppose you think that price is worth it if you can find one more person to subscribe to your limited oral viewpoint.

Jillo why do you have to be so mean. I never said that all parents should follow the oral path. But I do think all parents should be involved in their child's education and not just accept what the schools tell them.

Are you or are you not oriented toward the oralist phiposophy? I would suggest you spend your summer reading a history of dea feducation, and then you will discover exactly what oppression and exclusionthe oralist philosophy has created for deaf children throughout the United States.
She is actively invovled with her kids' education, she works long and hard with them to make certain they achieve the level of sucess that they have and she has fought a long and hard battle to successfully force her SD to provide her daughter with the appropriate services that she is entitled to receive.

As have many parents. What makes her so special?

She is not going to let her child's education suffer just in order to "win" her case for that would ultimately be losing the battle.

Exactly

Based on what she has posted, her daughter's education has already suffered.

Jillo you take things out of context. YEs, my daughter has had some difficulty but she has raise above these and her education has not suffered because we make up at home what is lacking at school. Like I mention before her GPA is 3.5 or 3.6

Did you ar did you not saythat she was missing things and difficulty grasping course content?Her "attitude" is that first and foremost she is not placing her daughter's education at risk just to prevail in a case. Seems to me that she has got her priorities and "attitude" right.

Too bad that are not more parents like her.

Thank God there aren't more parents
But there are lots more parents like me. Maybe you just don't want to admit it but there.

Unfortunately, there are far too many parents out there who follow the oral philsophy on mistaken assumptions. And that is exactly wahy the literacy rates and the educatioanl acievement of deaf students continues to lag behind that of their hearing peers.

who are willing to sacrifice their child's education for the sake of speech. There are already too many.

If you think that a SD that has had to shell out money to their attorneys to fight Jackie at a hearing, that has lost the hearing and now will most likely have to pay Jackie's attorneys for their time, has received nothing but negative press nationwide has taken the "easy" route, then what do you consider difficult.

Obviously, the school system doesn't seem to be too worried about that. They are appealing. Remember?

The school system is very worried. I know that because of the people that I know that work for this district and district close by. It looks we are even going to get more press. We have an interview said up for next week.

If they were terribly worried about the bad press, they wouldn't pursue the appeal. Enjpoying all the press, aren't you? I think perhaps you are more concerned about the press than the school system is. I'd be very careful about what I say to the press if I were you. If you contradict yourself as much as you have onthis board, the school system can use it in their appeal to destroy your credibility.