District files appeal against deaf student

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jillio said:
It is all about legal interpretation. If the deaf child is performing at an academic level that allows her to achieve an above average gpa, then she obviously has access to the curriculum. Otherwise, she would be failing.
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That doesn't mean that it's the school that provided access. Seems to me they can either prove they provided access or that can't allthough I'm quite sure it's more complicated than that. Shouldn't be but I'm sure it is.
jillio said:
And an above average gpa means that she is achieving at a standard that surpasses many of thehearing students in the same school. Didn't say it was right, but only that it happens all the time, and it is a direct result of the language ambiguities in the ADA. And who was the ADA written by--legal experts. You don'tthink those ambiguities are in there on purpose?
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Geeze and I thought I was cynical.
 
rockdrummer said:
Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.
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It happened to me at my school growing up...that's why I said it is nothing new as usual with the public schools doing stuff like this. Doesnt make it right and it needs to be changed.
 
rockdrummer said:
That doesn't mean that it's the school that provided access. Seems to me they can either prove they provided access or that can't allthough I'm quite sure it's more complicated than that. Shouldn't be but I'm sure it is.
Geeze and I thought I was cynical.
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And, that's how they prove it--through gpa and academic achievement. Yeah, try working with the system for awhile and you become a cynical as I am. But when I try to point out to parents where their attitudes are contributing to decisions being made regarding services provided, I'm the bad guy. You can't beat the system, as the old saying goes, you have to learn to manipulate it to your advantage--or more accurately, to the advantage of deaf students.
 
shel90 said:
It happened to me at my school growing up...that's why I said it is nothing new as usual with the public schools doing stuff like this. Doesnt make it right and it needs to be changed.
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Absolutely it needs to be changed, and that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, all we can do is advocate, and manipulate the system to get what is needed. Sometimes, that requires a change in parental attitude, because even though these orally based parents don't want to see it, it is the attitude that oralism provides greater access that hurts them in these cases.
 
jillio said:
Absolutely it needs to be changed, and that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, all we can do is advocate, and manipulate the system to get what is needed. Sometimes, that requires a change in parental attitude, because even though these orally based parents don't want to see it, it is the attitude that oralism provides greater access that hurts them in these cases.
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so are you saying you believe this is a result of an oralist agenda in the educational system? Do you believe that the shcool system is not providing these services because they don't think it's needed in an oral environment? Please advise
 
rockdrummer said:
so are you saying you believe this is a result of an oralist agenda in the educational system? Do you believe that the shcool system is not providing these services because they don't think it's needed in an oral environment? Please advise
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Yes, this is a direct result of the oralist agenda withinthe school system, and it seems to be enjoying renewed vigor. The school systems subscibel to what the professionalized hearing teachers of the deaf, the audies, and the oralist parents tell them. Check out the differing attitudes between those truly knowlegeable re: deaf education vs. those who posess only knowlege of special education policy and procedure, or for even more disparity, the educators of hearing children who rarely encounter the deaf student in the mainstream.
 
maybe that happens in pockets. I don't get the impression from my sons IEP or what is actually happening at his school that there is an oralist agenda. In fact he spends only about an hour a week on speech. That doesn't seem to be representitave of an oralist agenda to me.
 
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rockdrummer said:
maybe that happens in pockets. I don't get the impression from my sons IEP or what is actually happening at his school that there is an oralist agenda. In fact he spends only about an hour a week on speech. That doesn't seem to be representitave of an oralist agenda to me.
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Does he have an interpreter in class? Is he given print versions of any orally delivered materials? And those "pockets you speak of are quite large, rockdrummer. Just because you don't believe that it is happening at your son's school doesn;t mean it isn't widespread. If it wasn't so widespread, we would not have the problems with reading comprehension scores and literacy rates that we are seeing nationwide.
 
rockdrummer said:
maybe that happens in pockets. I don't get the impression from my sons IEP or what is actually happening at his school that there is an oralist agenda. In fact he spends only about an hour a week on speech. That doesn't seem to be representitave of an oralist agenda to me.
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I dont think a majority of teachers who work in the public schools are being oralists on purpose..they just dont have the background training on deaf education so they make a lot of misassumptions about how to meet deaf children's needs in the mainstreamed programs. Most of them make the assumptions that because a deaf children can speak or do well in classes they are getting equal access to information as their hearing counterparts.
 
shel90 said:
I dont think a majority of teachers who work in the public schools are being oralists on purpose..they just dont have the background training on deaf education so they make a lot of misassumptions about how to meet deaf children's needs in the mainstreamed programs. Most of them make the assumptions that because a deaf children can speak or do well in classes they are getting equal access to information as their hearing counterparts.
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I'll agree with you on that one. And I think there are just as many who understand that the deaf student in their mainstreamed class is not getting it all, but adminsitration prevents them from acting.
 
rockdrummer said:
Are you serious that the school would base access on GPA and not actually providing services. What's wrong with that picture.
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Yes Rockdrummer, that is all that they are basing their decision on that she has a great GPA, her GPA is 3.5, which is great but they never took into account the work she does at home and the pre- and post teaching I do. They also did not take into account the recommondations of the 4 teachers of the deaf that I took to my daughter's IEP meeting.
 
jillio said:
Of course I am serious. It happens all the time to justify not providing additional services.
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Jillo is right I see this all the time with my students. For most parents it is hard for them then to think of why they need it and how to fight for it. This is part of the reason that I will take this to whatever level I need to to ensure that all the kids behind my daughter get to use CART. Once one student in our SELPA has it then it is way too hard for the school to say no the rest of the students.
 
shel90 said:
It happened to me at my school growing up...that's why I said it is nothing new as usual with the public schools doing stuff like this. Doesnt make it right and it needs to be changed.
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Shel you are so right. It doesn't make it right. And I am going to do everything in my power to change it. I went to commission on disabilities meeting today. This commission is going to draft a letter and take it personally to the school district. I do not know if it will make a difference but it will put pressure on the school district.
 
jillio said:
And, that's how they prove it--through gpa and academic achievement. Yeah, try working with the system for awhile and you become a cynical as I am. But when I try to point out to parents where their attitudes are contributing to decisions being made regarding services provided, I'm the bad guy. You can't beat the system, as the old saying goes, you have to learn to manipulate it to your advantage--or more accurately, to the advantage of deaf students.
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Jillo I have to agree with you there parents have to learn how to manipulate the system to the advantage of their child. I have had this talk with our attorney where he has told me that if I stop what we are doing at home we can prove easier that my daughter needs more help at school. But as her mother I cannot set her up to fail. I have to do everything in my power to help her succeed at school.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Shel you are so right. It doesn't make it right. And I am going to do everything in my power to change it. I went to commission on disabilities meeting today. This commission is going to draft a letter and take it personally to the school district. I do not know if it will make a difference but it will put pressure on the school district.
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would be nice if it made a difference nationally..:)
 
jillio said:
Absolutely it needs to be changed, and that is a lengthy process. In the meantime, all we can do is advocate, and manipulate the system to get what is needed. Sometimes, that requires a change in parental attitude, because even though these orally based parents don't want to see it, it is the attitude that oralism provides greater access that hurts them in these cases.
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Jillo if I ever lead you to believe that I think oralism provides greater access I am sorry about that. I am not really sure if oralism provides greater access, it would really depend on the situation. I think at times it can, but the reason we choose the oral path was because we thought it would give them more opportunties.
I think Shel mention once how things need to change so that kids that just sign had these same opportunties. I agree but I cannot change that. What I can do these help my children in the world that we do live in.
 
rockdrummer said:
so are you saying you believe this is a result of an oralist agenda in the educational system? Do you believe that the shcool system is not providing these services because they don't think it's needed in an oral environment? Please advise
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I don't I think so it is a decision based on money and several teachers in the school district have told me this information. I think if CART costed the same as an interpeter, the school district would have agreed right away. This is why I think the project that Nesmuth is working on is so wonderful especially since he is from southern California. I am just so excited that there will be way to provide CART for all deaf children at a reasonable cost for the school district.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Jillo if I ever lead you to believe that I think oralism provides greater access I am sorry about that. I am not really sure if oralism provides greater access, it would really depend on the situation. I think at times it can, but the reason we choose the oral path was because we thought it would give them more opportunties.
I think Shel mention once how things need to change so that kids that just sign had these same opportunties. I agree but I cannot change that. What I can do these help my children in the world that we do live in.
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That's how I see the BiBi approach being very useful...sign language for developing abstract thoughts and concepts for higher literacy skills and spoken language to help with English and communication skills with the general population. Nothing wrong with having oral skills..just the receptive skills is where most deaf/hoh children struggle with and that's where a visual language can be helpful in. To me, it is having the best of both. I know that it is not offered in CA...wish it was..my brother is fighting to have it approved in AZ. It is hard but it can be done.

That's just how I see it..cuz I dont see another way of tackling the low literacy rates of many deaf/hoh children unless there is a cure to make all of us hearing but that would make the world boring. :giggle: Just kidding.
 
shel90 said:
I dont think a majority of teachers who work in the public schools are being oralists on purpose..they just dont have the background training on deaf education so they make a lot of misassumptions about how to meet deaf children's needs in the mainstreamed programs. Most of them make the assumptions that because a deaf children can speak or do well in classes they are getting equal access to information as their hearing counterparts.
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Shel I think you are right. When I asked for CART for my daughter, the d/hh teacher did not know how CART was used. I had to explain to her. She also could not understand that my children are able to talk on our home phone and a cell phone. I spent a lot of time explaining these issues to her. She is a certified teacher of deaf and received her training at Cal State Northridge. Then the school said that I was refusing services from her. I had to explain to them that every time my children are pulled from their class, they are missing information and that I would make sure to work with them at home. And that I am a fully credential teacher of the deaf.
 
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