District files appeal against deaf student

[jackiesolorzano]

Well, yeah! That's what an attorney gets paid for!!

Our attorney isn't get paid a single cent from us. He has already won another CART case for a high school in another county close to use.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Actually shel it amazes me that a school (schools being famous for working very hard to provide as little as they can) would pay for an interpetor when the person doesn't use ASL. Was there another person in the classroom who did use ASL and you were lumped into it as an accomodation because you were deaf to? If you (if you were the only one in the class) weren't using it I can't see why either you or your parents would get that accomodation listed in your IEp and I really can't see why the school would pay to have an interpetor on staff providing translation to one person who didn't use it well enough to get much out of it. That's why I'm asking if there was another deaf person in the classroom?

One mistake that parents make in arguing for services is actually saying that this is the best way. One never should bring 'best' into it.

I learned that a long time ago to never say best. In our due process case, the school's attorney kept trying to make me say best and did the same thing to our expert witness. He would say so are you trying to tell us that CART would be the best thing for my daughter.

Just as the school will not actually say they can't because of 'money'

Althought the school never said that it was because of money they did tell their teachers that if my daughter received CART the money would be taken away from the general education budget.

the parent needs to agru based on WHY the requested service 'appropriate' for their child's education. To parents who are working at successfully supporting their children in their home schools, NEVER EVER SAY BEST. The schools arguement will be they only need to provide 'free and APPROPRIATE' so the parents need to agru that the service they want is APPROPRIATE (in Shel's case some type of transciption/notetaking) and they have to be willing to agru against the schools idea of what is appropriate (why ASL was not appropriate from of translation..the child doesn't use ASL). I, myself took quite some time to accuatlly get this through my head and with a child with a mental disablity who read the books and stuff it really is sad I didn't understand that.

Yes the law says the school is required to provide services, the parents need to go into the IEP meeting not only with the list of services they need but with the data showing why that service is the appropriate one for their child. Will they still get it, not necessarily but the less 'emotion' brought into

I really was prepared at the IEP that I asked for CART. I had wrote a 20 page report. In it, I had the names and numbers of all the high schools in southern California that uses CART. I included 2 research articles that supported the use of CART in high school. I wrote a list of why my daughter needs CART. I also took with me 4 teachers of the deaf. 3 of the teachers were oral teachers of the deaf and one was a teacher of the deaf that uses sign language in her class. This teacher has 2 interpeters in her class. I do think I was well prepared. Their only agrument was that my daughter does well in school.

it and the more data showing why the service is appropriate and the backup of any case law that shows why the courts decided in the parents favor will help outcome.

Obviously in the case listed the parents have been willing to follow through and are successfully agruing that the service is appropriate. Good for them.

It is not easy taking a case to due process. I know they say that parents can go through the due process without an attorney, I would have to say it is very hard. I think of myself being better inform then the average parent and I would have never been able to go through due process without my daughter's attorney.
We are so blessed to have found him because he has already won a case for CART.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

True, but the district also has to justify the $$ they are spending on the appeal vs the money they'd spend on just providing the service. It's a gamble for both the parents and the district. My guess is the school system is hoping that the other side backs down. AFter all if she's really willing to appeal all the way to the SC, and case law has actually gotten nursing support for severely handicapped students in their home schools, well, if the attourney is good the school might have problems and then if they lose have to justify the ammount of money they spent that would have been better spent on accutally edcuating the kids. At the moment it's kinda a standoff waiting to see who'll back down first.

BTW, parents who are thinking of appealing need to make sure they use a lawyer who works in educational law. There are ways to find them on the net.

I think you are completely right the school district is waiting to see if I will back down. But I know that there is no way I will back down. I know that our attorney is completely committed to this process. I do think that the school district is realizing that we will take it all the way. There has been a lot of media attention and I know that there has been several of our elected officals contacting the school district.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Agreed. And since school districts keep attorneys on contract, their expense in appealing will most likely be considerably less than providing CART services for an extended period of time. I would venture a guess tht the appeal is taking place because this student has been doing well according to the parent, and therefore the school is relying on the appropriate clause. It can be convincingly argued that they have been providing appropriate services based on the student's academic record. And I wholeheartedly agree--the attorney needs to specialize not just in ADA law, but educational law.

In my old school district I had to be on the stand on the side of the school district. I remember asking my special education director what the cost was for a case to go through due process and an appeal, she told me the school would spend about $50,000.

We are very lucky that our attorney has a lot of experience both was ADA and the educational law. When we go through the federal level we will rely more on the ADA law.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Oh and another thing to when asking for accomdations etc. in the IEP and getting a no, make sure that they provide you on the spot during the meeting a copy of the hmm, what it the name of that document. I'll think if it eventually. someday...(oh just remembered, if they refuse your request then state you want a Prior Written Notice as to why)..But it's basically a written statement that includes the WHY they are refusing the parental request, and there is a legal term for that paper. Some states even carry a copy of the form on their educataion web sites, making it available to the staff in their states and the general public. I think TN had one on it's website. Can't remember if my state of MN does. (I would say if your state doesn't have one then find one on another states website, copy it off and take to meetings with you) Since they really don't want to be on record as to why they are saying no and exactly why they don't follow that particular part of the IDEA, espeically if the parents have outlined why the accomodation is appropriate for their child and they can't come up with a good excuse. That's why it's good to get that in writing immediately, so you can have the dumb excuse to use against them.

What I do is not sign the IEP. I get a copy and fax it to our attorney, he looks at it and tells me if I can sign it or what the school needs to do in order for me to sign it. The other thing I do is I get a comments page from a friend that is a teacher in the school district. On the comments page I write everything I want to make sure is in the IEP. I leave the first couple of lines empty so they can write that mom wrote this and wants it included in the IEP. This works really good for me because I make sure that everything I want is written in the IEP.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Yeah, but there's a HUGE difference between providing nursing support for a medically fragile kid and providing C-Print for a student who is doing well with appropreate accomondations. (ie just a notetaker)
I just find it SO ironic that Ag Bell types say that there's freedom in listening and talking, but then bitch and moan about all the limitations that listening and talking give a dhh kid.

deafdyke, I was wondering what you meant by there's freedom in listening and talking and the AG Bell types. I know of AG Bell but I have been involved with them. and then what do you mean that but then bitch and moan about all the limitations that listening and talking give a dhh kid.
Are you trying to say that because my kids can listen and talk, the school shouldn't provide them equal access to the curriulum. I was just wondering.

 

[pek1]

So why were you claiming that your speech wasn't "deaf" sounding?

If you read through what I said, I never said or claimed anything of the sort. My speech is quite clear, as it should be, but, as I said, I never claimed anything.

 

[rick48]

But an appeal doesn't go straight to the federal courts. First it goes to local courts, then state courts, then district courts, then federal courts. And a school system has an attorney on contract that gets paid whether he is trying cases or not. I would imagine that they have more in the legal budget than your average citizen. Since the attorney is on contract, and is being paid irregardless, they aren't wasting time or money. It's already been spent. They are just getting their money's worth.

Why are you arguing this issue with her?

You, who have taken a SD to a hearing and have won should know full well the weight that a finding in one's favor by the hearing judge holds and the very high hurdles that the appealing party will have to clear in order to be successful. The findings of fact by the judge, in Jackie's favor, will not normally be reviewed by an appeals court.

True, most school districts have attorneys on retainer but the terms of the retainer vary depending upon the services to be provided. Usually, hearings and appeals fall outside of the retainer and/or have their own separate rates, so it is very possible and most likely the case that the money for the appeal has not "already been spent". Also the SD Board has a duty and an obligation not to waste taxpayers money by engaging in fruitless litigation.

Does anyone doubt that if Jackie's story had been about trying to get an ASL terp for her daughter that you would be lavishing her with praise and telling her what a wonderful, dedicated and caring Mom she was. Also how smart she was to take her case to both the media and to the politicians?

 

[rick48]

You're too late. I already called Pete's bluff, and spoke with him yesterday. BTW--you owe me some money!

I do indeed, how do I pay up?

 

[jillio]

Jillo, I am not an attorney so I could be wrong but what my daughter's attorney has told me is that we do not have to go through the steps that you have said. Yes, we had to first start at the school level and then from there it was our choice to go to the state or the federal level and we choose the federal level. Yes, the school has an attorney on contract but once a case goes through due process and beyond, attorneys charge fees above their contracted fees. This information is from my special education director. The average cost for the school to pay to their attorney for a due process case that is not appealed is $20,000. So they are wasting their time and money. Our attorney is not charging us a single cent.

Where did you find an attorney that doesn't charge? Through legal aid? I thought it was the school that was appealing. Inthat case, wouldn't it be the school's choice as to which court they wanted to appeal to?

 

[jillio]

I do indeed, how do I pay up?

PM you my address?

 

[Nesmuth]

To be released

$82,000 Federal Grant Will Enable The Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center To Re-Invent C.A.R.T.

Last week I picked up a grant that will enable the Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center to re-invent Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART) to make it more accessible to public schools.

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is the instant translation of the spoken word into English text using a stenotype machine, notebook computer and realtime software. The text appears on a computer monitor or other display. This technology is primarily used by people who are late-deafened, oral deaf, hard-of-hearing, or have cochlear implants.

The Americans with Disabilities Act specifically recognized CART as an assistive technology which affords "effective communication access."

The realistic need of CART these days is that more students are requesting it because the bulk of the newer deaf generation are being schooled without the use of manual communications. These types of deaf students will not be needing sign language interpreters. This has increased the demand of CART services and that increased the costs of these services as well.

Many schools do not have access to CART because of the high cost and the results are news like Samantha Solorzano, a deaf sophomore at Glendora High School, in the Los Angeles Area, won a lawsuit against her school requiring it to provide her with a real-time transcription of her classes.

However Glendora High School appealed the ruling complaining the $35,000 a year CART service would be an extreme solution.

"Extreme" because nobody has ever attempted to re-invent CART to make it cheaper and more accessible to public schools. We got the grant and Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center will get the chance to re-invent CART and our goal is to have very low cost CART programs implimented in at least 5 mainstreaming schools by the end of 2008. We will be creating a model of a new CART program that can easily be replicated in schools throughout the United States.

Richard Roehm

 

[rockdrummer]

$82,000 Federal Grant Will Enable The Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center To Re-Invent C.A.R.T.

Last week I picked up a grant that will enable the Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center to re-invent Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART) to make it more accessible to public schools.

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is the instant translation of the spoken word into English text using a stenotype machine, notebook computer and realtime software. The text appears on a computer monitor or other display. This technology is primarily used by people who are late-deafened, oral deaf, hard-of-hearing, or have cochlear implants.

The Americans with Disabilities Act specifically recognized CART as an assistive technology which affords "effective communication access."

The realistic need of CART these days is that more students are requesting it because the bulk of the newer deaf generation are being schooled without the use of manual communications. These types of deaf students will not be needing sign language interpreters. This has increased the demand of CART services and that increased the costs of these services as well.

Many schools do not have access to CART because of the high cost and the results are news like Samantha Solorzano, a deaf sophomore at Glendora High School, in the Los Angeles Area, won a lawsuit against her school requiring it to provide her with a real-time transcription of her classes.

However Glendora High School appealed the ruling complaining the $35,000 a year CART service would be an extreme solution.

"Extreme" because nobody has ever attempted to re-invent CART to make it cheaper and more accessible to public schools. We got the grant and Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center will get the chance to re-invent CART and our goal is to have very low cost CART programs implimented in at least 5 mainstreaming schools by the end of 2008. We will be creating a model of a new CART program that can easily be replicated in schools throughout the United States.

Richard Roehm

Richard, That sounds like what I was talking about here So it's called CART eh? I think that is awsome. What needs to be done to make that technology available in all schools with deaf students? Is anyone or any groups advocating this that you are aware of.

 

[rick48]

PM you my address?

That's fine or I can make a donation to St. rita's. your choice.

 

[rick48]

Where did you find an attorney that doesn't charge? Through legal aid? I thought it was the school that was appealing. Inthat case, wouldn't it be the school's choice as to which court they wanted to appeal to?

Contrary to popular belief there are attorneys who will take on a case or tackle an important issue, not for the money but because they believe in justice for all.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Why are you arguing this issue with her?

You, who have taken a SD to a hearing and have won should know full well the weight that a finding in one's favor by the hearing judge holds and the very high hurdles that the appealing party will have to clear in order to be successful. The findings of fact by the judge, in Jackie's favor, will not normally be reviewed by an appeals court.

True, most school districts have attorneys on retainer but the terms of the retainer vary depending upon the services to be provided. Usually, hearings and appeals fall outside of the retainer and/or have their own separate rates, so it is very possible and most likely the case that the money for the appeal has not "already been spent". Also the SD Board has a duty and an obligation not to waste taxpayers money by engaging in fruitless litigation.

Does anyone doubt that if Jackie's story had been about trying to get an ASL terp for her daughter that you would be lavishing her with praise and telling her what a wonderful, dedicated and caring Mom she was. Also how smart she was to take her case to both the media and to the politicians?

You are so right no doubt in mind that if I was fighting for interpeter, I am sure everyone would have come to my rescue good thing we do not need to be rescued.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Where did you find an attorney that doesn't charge? Through legal aid? I thought it was the school that was appealing. Inthat case, wouldn't it be the school's choice as to which court they wanted to appeal to?

I found the attorney because as I stated before he has won CART for another student that went to school in the same area where I teach. Someone knew about the struggles we were about to go through and gave me his name. I know it is the decision of the school how they arrange the appeal but we have a counter sue against them that we have started at the federal level.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Where did you find an attorney that doesn't charge? Through legal aid? I thought it was the school that was appealing. Inthat case, wouldn't it be the school's choice as to which court they wanted to appeal to?

No I did not find our attorney through legal aid, although in the beginning I did contact some legal aid clinics but we did not quailfy we had to be low to low-middle income and we are not in that range.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

$82,000 Federal Grant Will Enable The Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center To Re-Invent C.A.R.T.

Last week I picked up a grant that will enable the Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center to re-invent Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART) to make it more accessible to public schools.

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) is the instant translation of the spoken word into English text using a stenotype machine, notebook computer and realtime software. The text appears on a computer monitor or other display. This technology is primarily used by people who are late-deafened, oral deaf, hard-of-hearing, or have cochlear implants.

The Americans with Disabilities Act specifically recognized CART as an assistive technology which affords "effective communication access."

The realistic need of CART these days is that more students are requesting it because the bulk of the newer deaf generation are being schooled without the use of manual communications. These types of deaf students will not be needing sign language interpreters. This has increased the demand of CART services and that increased the costs of these services as well.

Many schools do not have access to CART because of the high cost and the results are news like Samantha Solorzano, a deaf sophomore at Glendora High School, in the Los Angeles Area, won a lawsuit against her school requiring it to provide her with a real-time transcription of her classes.

However Glendora High School appealed the ruling complaining the $35,000 a year CART service would be an extreme solution.

"Extreme" because nobody has ever attempted to re-invent CART to make it cheaper and more accessible to public schools. We got the grant and Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center will get the chance to re-invent CART and our goal is to have very low cost CART programs implimented in at least 5 mainstreaming schools by the end of 2008. We will be creating a model of a new CART program that can easily be replicated in schools throughout the United States.

Richard Roehm

This is wonderful where can I get more information. My daughter has several friends at University High School in Irvine. I know that they have CART over there.

 

[Nesmuth]

Richard, That sounds like what I was talking about here So it's called CART eh? I think that is awsome. What needs to be done to make that technology available in all schools with deaf students? Is anyone or any groups advocating this that you are aware of.

CART can accept either voice or keyboard input.

Then program I'm referring to is the keyboard input as I'm not ready for the voice input version yet as each teacher has different phonetic signatures and the programming will have to be changed to meet the different teachers. This is beyond my scope at this time. For now, I will focus on the keyboard input. And we use the free federal surplus property to put the systems together and develop the programming and find 5 schools that have mainstreaming students to impliment the program.

Other deaf groups have been talking of this for years already and they havent produced any results. It's all talk they do. I'm a do-er not a talker.

The schools accross the US will save millions of dollars every year in the long run using my program model.

I'm so excited to be part of this development.

Richard