Declaration of Occupy Wall Street

[Jiro]

You mean you've looked at all the videos posted here and then said you don't see any cops swinging batons?

yes. it's funny that you don't see him resisting arrest either but I'll just agree to disagree.

go back earlier in the thread and see the link I posted to the youtube video.

that's what I'm saying. Tell me exactly what time.

 

[DeafCaroline]

yes


that's what I'm saying. Tell me exactly what time.

there's been several posts explaining at which point in the video the cop swung the baton. look again.

 

[deafskeptic]

He's in the hospital suffering from facial injuries due to that incident. if you saw the earlier videos posted on this thread, you would see a helmeted cop bending down and swinging a baton where he was lying on the ground.

the guy that was lying on the ground, he wasn't combative and he was unarmed.

I'm guessing you didn't see the last video in that article.

Hence my question to Jiro.

 

[Jiro]

there's been several posts explaining at which point in the video the cop swung the baton. look again.

nope. You merely described his action with your POV which can be found in several possible scenes. I want EXACT time of the video.

"go back and find it" is just a surefire giveaway to losing a case.

So I ask again.... which video and where EXACTLY do you see baton beating. I want a specific time so we both can analyze it and hopefully come to a mutual agreement.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrzQedHM6SY]'Occupy Wall Street' NYPD runs over a protester with motorcycle 14/10/2011 [MIRROR] - YouTube[/ame]

OWS_PoliceScooter on Vimeo

 

[DeafCaroline]

You're just too lazy to review this thread but trying to tell me that because I refuse to do the reviewing for you, that I'm losing the case. I've been around long enough to see you tell other posters all the time to review the threads. Maybe practice what you preach? How can I be losing when I've already posted the link to the video and explained at which point in the video the cop struck the baton. Nice try Jiro.

But since you seem unable to find any posts regarding the video I linked to, I will be nice and post a link - start at the top of the page and scroll down. click on the link to the video in reba's post where she asked about the beating and then you would see more than one post saying "at the 20 second mark".

http://www.alldeaf.com/war-political-news/95389-declaration-occupy-wall-street-9.html

 

[TWA]

nope. You merely described it his action which is several possible scenes. I want EXACT time of the video.

"go back and find it" is just a surefire giveaway to losing a case.

So I ask again.... which video and where EXACTLY do you see baton beating. I want a specific time so we both can analyze it and hopefully come to a mutual agreement.

'Occupy Wall Street' NYPD runs over a protester with motorcycle 14/10/2011 [MIRROR] - YouTube

OWS_PoliceScooter on Vimeo

In the video you have posted, it happens at 21 seconds. The helmeted cop lifts the baton up to strike and brings it down. It's hard to see and is inconclusive on whether the protester is actual struck or not. What IS conclusive is that he brought the baton up in a manner to strike and brought it down to a point where it was no longer visible from this camera angle.

 

[naisho]

1. Okay. Motorcycle, scooter, whatever. Is that an issue?

2. See post #270

3. See post #270

Yes it is an issue.
It's not the same. You're comparing apples to oranges!!!

Where's your source for #270? Link? No credibility!

No mas, no mas! ...

 

[Cheetah]

If I were a member of the Jury, I would have to say that based on this video alone there is not enough evidence that the police actually did anything wrong. Yes it appears that way, but there is just way too much confusion to conclusively make a determination. Even after watching other camera angles it's not clear. In one it really looks like the scooter ran over the guy, in another it looks like the guy intentionally stuck his leg under the back wheel. I think you can make the case for either way and no way to prove otherwise.

 

[Jiro]

You're just too lazy to review this thread but trying to tell me that because I refuse to do the reviewing for you, that I'm losing the case. I've been around long enough to see you tell other posters all the time to review the threads. Maybe practice what you preach? How can I be losing when I've already posted the link to the video and explained at which point in the video the cop struck the baton. Nice try Jiro.

But since you seem unable to find any posts regarding the video I linked to, I will be nice and post a link - start at the top of the page and scroll down. click on the link to the video in reba's post where she asked about the beating and then you would see more than one post saying "at the 20 second mark".

http://www.alldeaf.com/war-political-news/95389-declaration-occupy-wall-street-9.html

lazy? I don't have time to come into this thread and start from page 1.

all you have to do is spend a few seconds of your time and tell me exactly what time do you see a baton beating. Instead.... you wrote a lengthy post which takes a lot longer than finding an exact time.

 

[Jiro]

In the video you have posted, it happens at 21 seconds. The helmeted cop lifts the baton up to strike and brings it down. It's hard to see and is inconclusive on whether the protester is actual struck or not. What IS conclusive is that he brought the baton up in a manner to strike and brought it down to a point where it was no longer visible from this camera angle.

ah-ha! I see what you're referring to. You're right that it's inconclusive on whether or not if officer struck him but from my POV - he was just holding a baton and did not strike him. He's just holding him down.

but then again.... we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[saywhatkid]

If I were a member of the Jury, I would have to say that based on this video alone there is not enough evidence that the police actually did anything wrong. Yes it appears that way, but there is just way too much confusion to conclusively make a determination. Even after watching other camera angles it's not clear. In one it really looks like the scooter ran over the guy, in another it looks like the guy intentionally stuck his leg under the back wheel. I think you can make the case for either way and no way to prove otherwise.

Yes, inconclusive to me also. I could not convict the cop or the protester based on this video.

 

[naisho]

If I were a member of the Jury, I would have to say that based on this video alone there is not enough evidence that the police actually did anything wrong. Yes it appears that way, but there is just way too much confusion to conclusively make a determination. Even after watching other camera angles it's not clear. In one it really looks like the scooter ran over the guy, in another it looks like the guy intentionally stuck his leg under the back wheel. I think you can make the case for either way and no way to prove otherwise.

Even if there was a case on the motorcycle incident, it likely won't be admissible on video alone in the court of law. They'd need to receive sworn statement(s), a certain allotted timeframe (ie, maybe 30, 60 days from the incident) and likely proof of medical record or examination, to boot at the minimum, along with considering the vic's background, which we know nothing about in the video. Police brutality is taken extremely seriously these days..

 

[Beowulf]

ah-ha! I see what you're referring to. You're right that it's inconclusive on whether or not if officer struck him but from my POV - he was just holding a baton and did not strike him. He's just holding him down.

but then again.... we'll just agree to disagree.

:roll:

Honestly, I talked to a couple cops about this a few hours ago. They rolled their eyes. Seriously.

 

[DeafCaroline]

lazy? I don't have time to come into this thread and start from page 1.

all you have to do is spend a few seconds of your time and tell me exactly what time do you see a baton beating. Instead.... you wrote a lengthy post which takes a lot longer than finding an exact time.

sure yet you assume I have to the time to go find the link for you. You've been on AD all afternoon, and yet you "dont have time". ok.

 

[naisho]

I watched the vid frame by frame. Something's not right. The start, his left leg is the one apparently under pressure. The next few frames, it now becomes his right leg under pressure and he's wiggling the left. Seems kinda ridiculous to me, but eh.

Feels a little exaggerated, I would not base it on this video alone judging by the 10+ other people recording with a better picture.

I don't doubt he was in some sort of pain from the cuffing, don't think anyone ever enjoys that except the police who do it.

 

[Jiro]

sure yet you assume I have to the time to go find the link for you. You've been on AD all afternoon, and yet you "dont have time". ok.

all afternoon? how? I was at conference

I did not ask you to find a link. I asked you to show me an exact time where you saw a baton beating. All you said is - "somewhere in there... he raised a baton..... and...... something"

Alex showed me an exact time. He thinks officer did strike him at around 0:20 and I disagreed but we both agreed it's inconclusive.

Now you? which scene do you believe officer struck him with a baton? show me an exact time.

 

[naisho]

In the video you have posted, it happens at 21 seconds. The helmeted cop lifts the baton up to strike and brings it down. It's hard to see and is inconclusive on whether the protester is actual struck or not. What IS conclusive is that he brought the baton up in a manner to strike and brought it down to a point where it was no longer visible from this camera angle.

ah-ha! I see what you're referring to. You're right that it's inconclusive on whether or not if officer struck him but from my POV - he was just holding a baton and did not strike him. He's just holding him down.

but then again.... we'll just agree to disagree.

at 0:20, IMO, officer DID hold up the baton for a reason and it is very likely to strike the protestor on the ground.

But observe the next few milliseconds for the physics of the swing, it's pretty clear there is not enough force to cause any serious intentional harm, much less if it even touched the target. It was put down without the adequate force to cause bodily harm, you can tell from the momentum of the baton in downward trajectory.

Would need to use CAD or related programs to find out.
Yea, from forensics you can measure the actual distance of items in a picture using already defined objects, like the scooter specs has its height, the van, then with the known officer's height, actual measurements of baton, you can really find out if it hit the target or not, it will take time.

Now are we gonna talk about the actual condition of the vic, or are we basing the argument on the fact that intent to beat seemed there first?

Both are pretty strong arguments to me, but in the court the judge is going to have to take in the whole story aside.

 

[TWA]

I watched the vid frame by frame. Something's not right. The start, his left leg is the one apparently under pressure. The next few frames, it now becomes his right leg under pressure and he's wiggling the left. Seems kinda ridiculous to me, but eh.

Feels a little exaggerated, I would not base it on this video alone judging by the 10+ other people recording with a better picture.

I don't doubt he was in some sort of pain from the cuffing, don't think anyone ever enjoys that except the police who do it.

Here's what I think happened:

First, I don't think this was staged. HOWEVER, I do think protesters, or anyone sympathetic to the protesters are looking for every reason and opportunity they can to make the police look bad in front of cameras and the world. They have very good reason for this, as the police have, on many occasions during this entire protest, used excessive and intimidating force. They are not conducting themselves appropriately (nothing new for NYPD).

The man in question (an observer--not a protester) was knocked to the ground. We don't know how he was knocked down. No video available (yet) shows this. So, he's on the ground kicking his legs around. Neither leg is pinned beneath the scooter. This is clear. I agree, his behavior seems dramatic and overdone. The cop on the scooter is stopped at this moment.

As the throng of cameramen and police crowd around to see what is going on, the cop on the scooter drives forward a few feet. This is very hard to catch, but if you pay attention, you will see that he moves forward. At this point, the rear wheel of the bike is on top of the man's ankle. This is clear. His leg is not "wedged." The bike is completely on top of his ankle, and the man is pain. What I think happened here is an accident. I think the cop was simply trying to get out of the way as the man was causing a scene. The man, in his attempt to be dramatic, got his ankle pinned by the rear wheel. He wasn't expecting that. Oh damn, real pain! shit!

At this point, the crowd becomes pissed off. They see the cop drive on top of the man's leg and the mood shifts to something more serious. The cops, sensing this sudden change, become very hostile. Notice how they start pushing everyone away and clearing the scene? That is standard typical cop behavior when they sense anger from a crowd.

Next, another group of cops, thinking that the man has been faking all of this to incite the crowd, close in on him in a very aggressive and excessive manner. One cop clearly raises his baton in order to strike and brings it down to a point that is inconclusive. Why would he even attempt to strike the man in the first place? That makes no sense when he was just lying on the ground pinned by the scooter.

There are a lot of unanswered questions here. Both parties are most likely at fault. However, I hold police officers at a higher standard to conduct themselves appropriately than the general population. That is their job. They have been entrusted with upholding the law and keeping peace. You do not keep peace by provoking and inciting the anger of a protesting crowd.

The slogan "question authority" came out of the anti-war movement of the 60s. It does not mean to attack authority or to disregard authority. It simply means to question authority and the possibility that authority is not always right.

What I see on this thread are several people who "question the people" and start from the vantage point that the police have done nothing wrong and that it is the people, exercising their American right, that should be held to higher scrutiny than authority.

That is disturbing.

 

[naisho]

Here's what I think happened:

First, I don't think this was staged. HOWEVER, I do think protesters, or anyone sympathetic to the protesters are looking for every reason and opportunity they can to make the police look bad in front of cameras and the world. They have very good reason for this, as the police have, on many occasions during this entire protest, used excessive and intimidating force. They are not conducting themselves appropriately (nothing new for NYPD).

The man in question (an observer--not a protester) was knocked to the ground. We don't know how he was knocked down. No video available (yet) shows this. So, he's on the ground kicking his legs around. Neither leg is pinned beneath the scooter. This is clear. I agree, his behavior seems dramatic and overdone. The cop on the scooter is stopped at this moment.

As the throng of cameramen and police crowd around to see what is going on, the cop on the scooter drives forward a few feet. This is very hard to catch, but if you pay attention, you will see that he moves forward. At this point, the rear wheel of the bike is on top of the man's ankle. This is clear. His leg is not "wedged." The bike is completely on top of his ankle, and the man is pain. What I think happened here is an accident. I think the cop was simply trying to get out of the way as the man was causing a scene. The man, in his attempt to be dramatic, got his ankle pinned by the rear wheel. He wasn't expecting that. Oh damn, real pain! shit!

At this point, the crowd becomes pissed off. They see the cop drive on top of the man's leg and the mood shifts to something more serious. The cops, sensing this sudden change, become very hostile. Notice how they start pushing everyone away and clearing the scene? That is standard typical cop behavior when they sense anger from a crowd.

Next, another group of cops, thinking that the man has been faking all of this to incite the crowd, close in on him in a very aggressive and excessive manner. One cop clearly raises his baton in order to strike and brings it down to a point that is inconclusive. Why would he even attempt to strike the man in the first place? That makes no sense when he was just lying on the ground pinned by the scooter.

There are a lot of unanswered questions here. Both parties are most likely at fault. However, I hold police officers at a higher standard to conduct themselves appropriately than the general population. That is their job. They have been entrusted with upholding the law and keeping peace. You do not keep peace by provoking and inciting the anger of a protesting crowd.

The slogan "question authority" came out of the anti-war movement of the 60s. It does not mean to attack authority or to disregard authority. It simply means to question authority and the possibility that authority is not always right.

What I see on this thread are several people who "question the people" and start from the vantage point that the police have done nothing wrong and that it is the people, exercising their American right, that should be held to higher scrutiny than authority.

That is disturbing.

Yeh, I don't question the backstory of what is going on. The protest are going on for a reason, and it's clear the hype is not made up either. People are distraught and there is a mob mentality going on over the social unrest.

I am focused on the actuality of the given evidence so far as to whether the vic was actually harmed, or struck upon, part of that is what interests me in the subject.

Took some image stills and looked at the frames separately, but it's still hard to see whether the observer was actually crushed or not, because the recording moves around too much. In just one moment he's not there, the motorcycle is still, one second later he's already on the ground.

It seems like the officer who rose the baton may not have hit the target. But I understand that may not be the point though. Check out the image stills. the direction his eyes and arm are moving are not exactly 100% parallel towards the subject on the floor, unless he was hitting extraneous of the guy's body.

I also uploaded a gif, but it seems the free hosts botch the framerate to make it faster than it actually is. So I had to resize, re-edit and manually set the fps to 10 per second. You be the judge, see it:

Now if we debate via the 'attempt to injure someone' was there, same concept with an officer drawing a gun = intent to kill, it's clear this LOE loses this in this light. He is no saint.

 

[Cheetah]

To me it almost looks like he is hitting the scooter. I am assuming the subject is still lying on the ground??? Doesn't look like he went low enough to engage someone on the ground.