Complain/Praise on Obama

[naisho]

You need to go back another 2,000 years, at least.

Aw shucks, close enough! But you're right, I'm probably too close. It was likely even before 1500s.

Wow. I don't have time to respond to everything here, so I'll just ask about this. Under your system, who would clean up elephant crap at the zoo and deal with cleaning up raw sewage? Who would have more glamorous jobs like photographing models or being rock musicians? Do you really think the guy stuck in elephant dung all day is going to feel like he's on the same level as the rock star just because he's paid the same?

Also, who would bother to go through the gruelling work of medical school and medical residence if he could just get the same credits for picking grapes at a vineyard in California?

I'm not good at deciding the results/arguing with semantics, so I'll just go from a very basic perception here:

The person who is doing medical work is taking it incorrectly if they perceive they should be paid the amount they receive for educating themselves. Actually, it's not the person. It's the society that defines the doctor. Why should they be that obnoxious to tie a dollar system to something to which they originally wanted to do - which is to help fix people. The world has changed us today so that you need to have a medical liability insurance, brace yourself over patient suits, and so much excess added all thanks to the fact that it operates on capitalism. It is too much "monetary freedom" for those who choose to indulge in this.

The elephant janitor - he's got to do it, someone in our world has to do it. People who don't do it, have someone else that can. This is also a socially constructed job - poor people, here's the pile of crap you can choose to work for.

The vineyard worker is the same.

In response, it's not the employments you have to do that's messing the up the system:


It's about the products and services you wish to get from the society.
Why must XYBZ32 cost $15,000 and it does a good job, yet only the rich can afford it? Say it's some robot family attendant or something.

Why's this 50oz bag of shrimp cost $30.00 at the supermarket, where only rich people can afford this on their dinner tables? You see $.50 per 2 TV dinner deals clip coupon on the ad, and poorer or lower class people screaming to go grab as much of this deal as they can?

Why's this Lexus IS350 cost $37,000 MSRP and this junky Toyota Corolla cost $11,000 MSRP? Yes, there's differences in production involved that raises the prices, but the main fact that's here is that it's targeted towards people with certain social standing.

Why's this hospitcal cost $100,000 for the best healthcare in TB diagnosis, while your local hospital can charge you $2,000?

These are just problems I see that we're digging a hole for ourselves deeper and deeper.

 

[darkdog]

My reply was generalized and in response to Reba's generalized statement. It has absolutely nothing to do with your father, or his social conscious.

No worries- I understand that. I use my father as an example because he's very typical of people who make it rich in this country and thus a good example of how he doesn't need a "social conscious" to benefit society as long as he plays by the rules.

And it isn't a pre-requisite, but unless he has a social conscious, the tax system will have one for him.

Oh, I'm sure the tax system will have one for him regardless of whether he has his own or not.

 

[naisho]

Narrator: topic threat identified killed and pacified by naisho! Another job well done. Our hero begins his quest into the skies in search for pacification of future debates.

 

[darkdog]

I'm not good at deciding the results/arguing with semantics, so I'll just go from a very basic perception here:

The person who is doing medical work is taking it incorrectly if they perceive they should be paid the amount they receive for educating themselves. Actually, it's not the person. It's the society that defines the doctor. Why should they be that obnoxious to tie a dollar system to something to which they originally wanted to do - which is to help fix people. The world has changed us today so that you need to have a medical liability insurance, brace yourself over patient suits, and so much excess added all thanks to the fact that it operates on capitalism. It is too much "monetary freedom" for those who choose to indulge in this.

The elephant janitor - he's got to do it, someone in our world has to do it. People who don't do it, have someone else that can. This is also a socially constructed job - poor people, here's the pile of crap you can choose to work for.

The vineyard worker is the same.

In response, it's not the employments you have to do that's messing the up the system:


It's about the products and services you wish to get from the society.
Why must XYBZ32 cost $15,000 and it does a good job, yet only the rich can afford it? Say it's some robot family attendant or something.

Why's this 50oz bag of shrimp cost $30.00 at the supermarket, where only rich people can afford this on their dinner tables? You see $.50 per 2 TV dinner deals clip coupon on the ad, and poorer or lower class people screaming to go grab as much of this deal as they can?

Why's this Lexus IS350 cost $37,000 MSRP and this junky Toyota Corolla cost $11,000 MSRP? Yes, there's differences in production involved that raises the prices, but the main fact that's here is that it's targeted towards people with certain social standing.

Why's this hospitcal cost $100,000 for the best healthcare in TB diagnosis, while your local hospital can charge you $2,000?

These are just problems I see that we're digging a hole for ourselves deeper and deeper.

I'm not trying to play a semantics "gotcha" game so if I misunderstood something, please feel free to point it out. I'm just trying to point out the inevitability of inequalities, at least as inequality is defined in a more utopian worldview. You said that "Money is just used to socially rank people apart from another, for what reason I have no utter sense of understanding why else aside from making certain people stand out from others." Nevertheless, in your vision where everyone gets paid the same regardless of what they do, there will still be social rankings. Nobody's going to want the elephant poop job, so that will go to whoever was last in line or lacks connections to get a better gig. They will still be considered lower than the nightclub DJ.

As far as all your examples go, let's just focus on the shrimp. The reason we have prices is because the sum of everyone's wants is greater than what exists. People will have to pay for scarce things in one way or another. In your vision, everyone would be able to afford 50 oz. bags of shrimp on a daily basis. But what if the shrimpers weren't catching enough shrimp? Then there would be a shortage and only a few lucky people can get some (and hence we're back where we started- not everyone can get shrimp). Suppose the government decides to solve the problem by sending out more shrimpers, which would take away workers from other industries. They have to pay the shrimpers credits, but where will the credits come from? Certainly not the sales of the shrimp. Do they make it up out of thin air? If so, then the credits lose value. What if enough people don't want to go be shrimpers? Would they be forced? Sounds totalitarian to me.

As imperfect as capitalism may be, it's the best way to iron out all those problems.

 

[naisho]

You do have a point there in regards to the situation about the shrimp. Too much of it for everyone is going to create a supply and demand problem, in which the modern capitalistic world, the consensus to fix this problem is to up the price in regards to the dwindling supply. How to get this worked out between people in an economy where it has no free reign - is beyond me as well.

There are still inequalities in the way I envision a perfect economy should work out, even I admit this.. I cannot think up of everything alone and work them out with a reason to why this should be with that.

The utopian society that I envisioned is just one of my random thinkings about how a perfect world would operate - without much concern for small matters alike in it, such as a janitorial job or the garbage disposal worker. I only highlighted on where all the "good" things of society would be working in reasonable harmony so that everyone can get by along and fine.

But for the most part, I chose to acknowledge the fact that capitalism inevitably is working teethering itself on a see-saw here, what can go great for one thing can in response has a cause and effect on another.

I'm not saying we have to abandon capitalism completely and move onto a new type of social order. All I'm trying to get the idea across is that these are the discrepancies of capitalism itself, where the money then begins to control not just you or me, but other people whom we have no control of the aftermath in that sense.

The only supposable fix would be to "play God" and instantly zap out the inconsistencies, and we know how that is not easy..

You and I both do know that as much as Capitalism sometimes seems to have it's positives, there's always the negatives to it that are behind not too far, in the shadows.
All in all, this is a lot of thinking involved and quite honestly no sane "social" person would be willing to give their free time just for hypothetically creating a world that would operate on the good of mankind.

 

[Hear Again]

Do you have proof that he stole money? I hadn't heard anything about that.

i don't have proof of that, but everyone knows he lied and cheated during the past 8 years. (i.e. declaring war before receiving official approval from congress, WMDs, restricting the rights of americans with disabilities under the ada)

 

[Reba]

i don't have proof of that, but everyone knows he lied and cheated during the past 8 years. (i.e. declaring war before receiving official approval from congress, WMDs, restricting the rights of americans with disabilities under the ada)

I'm sorry but you're mistaken about that.

Why does almost every thread end up as an opportunity to Bush bash?

 

[Reba]

envious? hardly. i'm not the kind of person who thinks money is the key to happiness unlike some people who enter certain careers simply for fame and fortune. sorry to disappoint you reba, but that's not my style.

I'm not disappointed; just puzzled because you are so bitter against rich people. If you aren't envious, why do criticize them so much? I'm not rich but I don't begrudge those who are.

 

[darkdog]

There are still inequalities in the way I envision a perfect economy should work out, even I admit this.. I cannot think up of everything alone and work them out with a reason to why this should be with that.

No matter how smart, how well educated, and how morally upstanding you are, it is simply impossible for the human mind to understand all the details of something as incredibly complex as the economy. That's why planned economies don't work. A small handful of people cannot have the expertise to understand the ramifications of their decisions. In a capitalist system, the decisions are made by a lot of people who are experts in their limited spheres. Their collective knowledge far exceeds what a few central planners can possibly hope to obtain. The shrimper may not be the smartest guy in the world, but he can figure out the best way to set his prices and the wages he needs to give his employees to keep his business successful. When central planners are trying to do that while keeping track of millions of other constantly changing facts across the economy, it just doesn't work.

But for the most part, I chose to acknowledge the fact that capitalism inevitably is working teethering itself on a see-saw here, what can go great for one thing can in response has a cause and effect on another.

I'm not saying we have to abandon capitalism completely and move onto a new type of social order. All I'm trying to get the idea across is that these are the discrepancies of capitalism itself, where the money then begins to control not just you or me, but other people whom we have no control of the aftermath in that sense.

So you and I both recognize that there's a cost to everything. Capitalism isn't perfect and thus we need limited laws and regulations to keep it working smoothly and protect the environment, the consumer, etc.

I believe capitalism is the best system around because its costs are lower than any other system. Rather than trying to do away with people's selfish desires, it forces them to serve others in order to fulfill their own desires. In other words, if you want that Lexus IS350, you can have it, but you'll have to work for it.

As far as money controlling people, that is another downside to capitalism, but it's a peril that's easy to avoid as long as we keep our perspectives straight. I believe that willingly donating a portion of our income to charity helps do just that.

 

[Foxrac]

Ouch, 100% is too higher and we won't see any rich people if tax was set at 100%, 40% would be better or around nearly number in 40's like Clinton did in 90's with no tax break.

In UK, tax bracket is max at 40%.

 

[Foxrac]

For me, $12,000 was a very good year.

I'm not against middle class paying lower taxes. I'm against envious attacks on wealthy people.

I want to increase my income but I don't want to decrease other people's income.

If it weren't for wealthy people, we wouldn't have investors, big ticket consumers, arts and charity patrons.

Think about it. The middle class people who work for the wealthy people wouldn't have jobs if it weren't for the wealthy people.

Think about the construction trades who build the $2-million house, the workers who make the fancy cars, the gardeners, cooks, and housekeepers who work for the wealthy, etc.

And I excluded them, didn't I? People who steal, lie, or cheat for gain in any "echelon", upper or lower, should be penalized, of course.

There are many wealthy people who are fine, honest, generous, hard-working citizens.

Yup, I have agree with you about that and I had been experienced with alot of wealthy people when lived in CA in last 2 years ago, every wealthy people are doing different way to do.

I wouldn't surprise if someone who mocking at me when get good job and make more than $100,000 or so.

 

[Jiro]

**jillio hanging her head in shame and signing, "Sorry".**

is the sign for sorry the one where you clench your fist, making a circular motion on your chest?

 

[jillio]

is the sign for sorry the one where you clench your fist, making a circular motion on your chest?

Yep.

 

[Maria]

No, but he will be tomorrow. And that is not some wild prediction...it is something that is actually going to happen. And the closer it gets, the more you dislike him.

What makes you think I dislike him ? I never created a thread makin' fun of him or criticize him like the way you do about Palin in your threads. I am entitled to say what ever my perspective tells me about Obama. It has nothin' to do with " dislike him ". If, he successes by keepin' promises, then that's fine by me - if, not then, there's somethin' wrong and people will know more.

You have no way of knowing what will happen on down the road any more than anyone else does. You are simply making negative predictions because you don't like Obama. Where exactly, has he lied? Give an example if you are going to accuse.

Don't forget that I read about him through articles and books. I already know what his plans are. And, don't ask me what articles and books are. Do your some research/homework.

 

[Maria]

how about you? have you kept every single promise? Like I said - if Obama can finish his one big promise... good enough.

He wants to be a president for this country.... meanin' for a whole people in this country.

You asked me " How about you ? " Well, I will say nothin'. I will just keep my eyes peeled. Just watchin'.

 

[Maria]

so which President has ever gotten A plus on his report card? how come you didn't say anything like this about President Bush? or President Clinton?

It's hard to explain. When Bush or Clinton was president, I didn't feel anythin' that will tell me somethin' is goin' to happen until Obama. I can see SOMETHIN' is goin' on out there around Obama. It is a sign. I can't tell you what sign it was that is about him. I am not sayin' that Obama is a bad person or anythin' like that. I don't know how to put words in to explain for you to understand. My eyes can read and I understand only for myself, it shows me somethin'. Just strange things around him.

He is just like a snake tellin' Eve that it is alright to take a fruit from the tree.

 

[jillio]

Don't forget that I read about him through articles and books. I already know what his plans are. And, don't ask me what articles and books are. Do your some research/homework.

I've done my research and homework. That's why I voted for him.

The fact that you dislike him is obvious from your many posts against him.

 

[Jiro]

It's hard to explain. When Bush or Clinton was president, I didn't feel anythin' that will tell me somethin' is goin' to happen until Obama. I can see SOMETHIN' is goin' on out there around Obama. It is a sign. I can't tell you what sign it was that is about him. I am not sayin' that Obama is a bad person or anythin' like that. I don't know how to put words in to explain for you to understand. My eyes can read and I understand only for myself, it shows me somethin'. Just strange things around him.

He is just like a snake tellin' Eve that it is alright to take a fruit from the tree.

I see.... I see.... I won't ask how you got the signs

 

[jillio]

It's hard to explain. When Bush or Clinton was president, I didn't feel anythin' that will tell me somethin' is goin' to happen until Obama. I can see SOMETHIN' is goin' on out there around Obama. It is a sign. I can't tell you what sign it was that is about him. I am not sayin' that Obama is a bad person or anythin' like that. I don't know how to put words in to explain for you to understand. My eyes can read and I understand only for myself, it shows me somethin'. Just strange things around him.

He is just like a snake tellin' Eve that it is alright to take a fruit from the tree.

But much of the American public did, and turns out we were right.

You compare the man to a snake, and then wonder why people think you don't like him?

 

[Byrdie714]

It's hard to explain. When Bush or Clinton was president, I didn't feel anythin' that will tell me somethin' is goin' to happen until Obama. I can see SOMETHIN' is goin' on out there around Obama. It is a sign. I can't tell you what sign it was that is about him. I am not sayin' that Obama is a bad person or anythin' like that. I don't know how to put words in to explain for you to understand. My eyes can read and I understand only for myself, it shows me somethin'. Just strange things around him.

He is just like a snake tellin' Eve that it is alright to take a fruit from the tree.

Knowing that you are from Alaska and possibly related to the Aleuts/Native Americans--I'm curious......are you a soothsayer?