Coffee Party turns bitter...

[Grummer]

At this rate, its bound to happen that kokonuts remark about school rolls would be used to crack down aliens, but on the face of it, its all fucking wrong!, just like shel and others been maintaining, its all about greed, now definitely its the employers, bosses, shareholders, the boards of CO's and what not, you know what?
A good start would be to start considering ways to develop a full range of proceess of banning outscourcing, this may mean bringing back protectionism, and canning free trade. Like fuck Free Trade, its not 'free' it is a misguided international relations 'to keep the peace by trade' scoffs, clearly as we all have seen its never has been about between countries (they might as well say terrorial ownership of workers), it has been more about shared class interest which only the wealthy across water agreed to 'exchange' come to think of it, they might actually Own governments as well, it may not be in terms of 'holding government buildings assests but more in the sense as leverage hold in ownership of the 'economics' to which the country at question is reliant upon to receive the inflow of funds from other countries through 'trade'...just my 2 cents

 

[dogmom]

"free trade" is only free for certain people, those who have power/privilege. which tends NOT to be the people who produce the goods under the free trade system. This includes many of people coming here from other places who are termed "illegal aliens"

 

[Foxrac]

See, none of that information shows the parents' immigration status, and the schools aren't allowed to ask.

What about illegal immigrant children have no birth certificate?

 

[Reba]

What about illegal immigrant children have no birth certificate?

They can either get birth certificates, or they can provide other documentation such as church christening/baptism records.

 

[Jiro]

Again, to which specific civil rights do you refer?

looks like I will create a thread.

 

[Jiro]

I did not mention Obamacare at all. I'm referring to the medical care they have been receiving for years. No, they don't get deported because the hospitals aren't allowed to report them as illegal aliens.

The federal law says the hospital must render EMERGENCY CARE to a person - either legal or illegal. For preventive medicine, the illegals are on their own. That's why I'm telling you about Obamacare. Obamacare was all about preventive medicine and it's not going to cover illegals. An interesting read here - link.

so what kind of medical care have they been receiving?

I didn't even say whether or not is was morally wrong. I said that they are not entitled to our public schools if they are here illegally. Yet, their kids do attend our schools because no one is allowed to ask if their parents are here legally.

the illegal kids are allowed to be in our public schools because the Supreme Court says so over 25 years ago. This remains unchallenged because it has proven beneficial for USA. Many of them grew up and stayed in America to contribute to America as taxpayers. They are beneficial on national level but unfortunately... at local level - it causes a burden on us. A very interesting read - Educating the "other" children - education of illegal immigrants may be necessary

One way or another - the illegal kids are easily identified and eventually, the parents will eventually get caught and deported back. It'll work out eventually in the end. It's like this - in New Jersey... it is legal to own hollowpoint rounds (because of Amendment 2) but it is illegal to shoot hollowpoint rounds in NJ (a clever workaround to federal law). You'll eventually go to jail.

:topic:
Your question was what kinds of benefits do illegal aliens get in America to which they are not legally entitled.

I don't have question. I already know what kind of benefits can they get or not.

My post wasn't for comparing the moral rightness or wrongness of what they are receiving but to show examples of things the illegal aliens DO receive without having to go thru the legal immigration process.

well we have social responsibility.

Yet it happens. If they don't worry about following immigration laws, they don't need to worry about driving laws.

and how is it federal government's fault with illegals being able to obtain driver license? Most of states didn't want to adopt REAL ID Act. The state is the one that issued license to them, not federal government.

You haven't seen the televised rallies?

oh? so you know which one is an illegal or not? Better call Arizona Governor Brewer to train the officers!!!

BTW, since the police aren't allowed to ask a person about their status, they wouldn't be arrested or deported.

Currently - the police can investigate the person's immigration status AFTER they commit the crime.

They are getting better about cracking down on that now but it has happened and is happening still.

yes but this doesn't mean the state should take matters into its own hands if the federal government isn't doing enough. I don't support vigilantism.

This is no different from the citizens taking matters into their own hands (via Amendment 2) if the cops aren't doing their jobs good enough to combat against high crime rates. I don't support vigilantism.

 

[Reba]

...I don't have question. I already know what kind of benefits can they get or not.

My post was to your question:

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Coffee Party turns bitter...

 

[Reba]

The federal law says the hospital must render EMERGENCY CARE to a person - either legal or illegal. For preventive medicine, the illegals are on their own. That's why I'm telling you about Obamacare. Obamacare was all about preventive medicine and it's not going to cover illegals. An interesting read here - link.

so what kind of medical care have they been receiving?

Long-term care for brain injuries and amputations, dialysis, and chemotherapy, for example.
Hospitals Feeling Strain From Illegal Immigrants - NYTimes.com

...One way or another - the illegal kids are easily identified and eventually, the parents will eventually get caught and deported back. It'll work out eventually in the end....

"Illegal kids" are NOT easily identified. No, they are NOT allowed to be identified by the schools, and the schools are NOT allowed to report the parents for deportation.

They do get foreign language interpreters for parent/teacher meetings, and English tutoring for the students, no questions asked.

well we have social responsibility.

Social responsibility and legal benefits are two separate issues. The question was about which benefits they were getting to which they were not legally entitled.

It might interest you to know that churches and private groups take upon themselves the expenses and services to provide aid and assistance to illegal aliens. That help is NOT a legal entitlement but acts of conscience and humanity. I'm fine with that. If anyone, out of the goodness of their hearts wants to provide help (without breaking laws), that's fine.

I don't want to go into details but I do put my money where my mouth is on a regular basis about my viewpoint on this.

and how is it federal government's fault with illegals being able to obtain driver license? Most of states didn't want to adopt REAL ID Act. The state is the one that issued license to them, not federal government.

I didn't say it was the federal government's fault. I just listed what the benefits were. How to resolve the inconsistencies is another topic.

My state (SC) requires a burden of proof for identification. I've had personal experience in this procedure for some friends, so I know it's not as easy to get a fake ID in SC.

It's up to the citizens of the other states to compel their DMVs to do more.

The other part of the driving benefit is that many illegal aliens who can't get a legal DL because they don't have documentation continue to drive anyway. That means, they get the benefit of using our roads without having to pass a driving test or getting/keeping insurance.

oh? so you know which one is an illegal or not? Better call Arizona Governor Brewer to train the officers!!!

Well, it's the participants themselves who admitted they were "illegal" so they could be lying.

"More Immigrants Take to Streets to Protest Proposed Laws

Tuesday, April 11, 2006

WASHINGTON — As many as 100 cities across the country served as hosts Monday to rallies and protests against any get-tough measures federal lawmakers are considering to crack down on illegal immigration.

Protests were held in cities such as Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Atlanta and Phoenix, and Texas cities such as Houston, Austin and El Paso. In North Carolina and Dallas, immigrant groups called for an economic boycott to show their financial impact. Rally participants sang "We Shall Overcome" in Spanish at the Mississippi Capitol in Jackson.

...Elsa Rodriguez, 25, talked about the baby girl she expected to give birth to in about three months.

'This is why I had to be here,' she said. 'She's going to be a U.S. citizen and I'm here illegal?'

...Cruz Luna, his wife and their four children all wore T-shirts reading "God Bless America" at a demonstration in Pensacola, Fla. The two oldest children — ages 8 and 9 — were born in Mexico and are in the U.S. illegally; their younger siblings, ages 4 years and 8 months old are U.S. citizens.

...In Phoenix, Miguel Penate, a fast-food restaurant manager who moved from El Salvador six years ago, said being in the country illegally was his only option...."
More Immigrants Take to Streets to Protest Proposed Laws - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum - FOXNews.com

Currently - the police can investigate the person's immigration status AFTER they commit the crime.

Too bad they couldn't have prevented the crime, especially the violent ones. Some of the illegal aliens not only cross the border illegally but also have criminal records in their home countries.

yes but this doesn't mean the state should take matters into its own hands if the federal government isn't doing enough. I don't support vigilantism.

This is no different from the citizens taking matters into their own hands (via Amendment 2) if the cops aren't doing their jobs good enough to combat against high crime rates. I don't support vigilantism.

How is a state cracking down on employers "vigilantism?" The state passes and enforces laws that prohibit the hiring of undocumented workers. That's not vigilantism.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

Dialysis, chemotherapy, brain injury.

Yeah, against the Oath to deny access to those.

Amputations, you means the procedure or aftercare?

 

[Reba]

Wirelessly posted

Amputations, you means the procedure or aftercare?

Both.

From my prior link:

"In one case at Martin Memorial that was resolved in February, an illegal immigrant from Jamaica arrived at the emergency room with a sore on his leg and stayed in the hospital for 17 months.

''He said he had a green card but couldn't find it,'' Ms. Austin said. ''The doctors found a serious vascular disease and he had to have both legs amputated.''

''After his surgeries, when he was well enough, we had a great deal of difficulty figuring out what to do next,'' Ms. Austin added. ''We eventually found some relatives and a physician in Jamaica who was willing to accept him, and one of our nurses flew with him to Jamaica. By the time all that happened, it had cost us probably over half a million dollars.''

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

Yeah, I don't understand the logic behind the aftercare then.

The procedure, yes, but not the aftercare.

 

[Jiro]

Long-term care for brain injuries and amputations, dialysis, and chemotherapy, for example.
Hospitals Feeling Strain From Illegal Immigrants - NYTimes.com

Both.

From my prior link:

"In one case at Martin Memorial that was resolved in February, an illegal immigrant from Jamaica arrived at the emergency room with a sore on his leg and stayed in the hospital for 17 months.

''He said he had a green card but couldn't find it,'' Ms. Austin said. ''The doctors found a serious vascular disease and he had to have both legs amputated.''

''After his surgeries, when he was well enough, we had a great deal of difficulty figuring out what to do next,'' Ms. Austin added. ''We eventually found some relatives and a physician in Jamaica who was willing to accept him, and one of our nurses flew with him to Jamaica. By the time all that happened, it had cost us probably over half a million dollars.''

well - this is a rather tricky case. The reason why this happened is because -

In that time, Mr. Jiménez, 30, a former gardener, has emerged from a coma, had two birthdays and accumulated medical bills of almost $1 million

so what do you propose? stick to law and throw him out on street while he's in coma?

 

[Jiro]

"Illegal kids" are NOT easily identified. No, they are NOT allowed to be identified by the schools, and the schools are NOT allowed to report the parents for deportation.

They do get foreign language interpreters for parent/teacher meetings, and English tutoring for the students, no questions asked.

sure it is. words get around. it will get pretty obvious. somebody will make an anonymous call to I.C.E.

Social responsibility and legal benefits are two separate issues. The question was about which benefits they were getting to which they were not legally entitled.

It might interest you to know that churches and private groups take upon themselves the expenses and services to provide aid and assistance to illegal aliens. That help is NOT a legal entitlement but acts of conscience and humanity. I'm fine with that. If anyone, out of the goodness of their hearts wants to provide help (without breaking laws), that's fine.

I don't want to go into details but I do put my money where my mouth is on a regular basis about my viewpoint on this.

yes I'm aware of such humanitarian action for illegals but on legal standpoint - if one wants to be anal and xenophobic - one can say ya'all are aiding and abetting the illegals even by providing food. Thanks God we are not like that.

Social Responsibility is tied to the laws. We have a social responsibility to help the children (legal or illegal) in America. That's why the law allows us to do so.

I didn't say it was the federal government's fault. I just listed what the benefits were. How to resolve the inconsistencies is another topic.

My state (SC) requires a burden of proof for identification. I've had personal experience in this procedure for some friends, so I know it's not as easy to get a fake ID in SC.

It's up to the citizens of the other states to compel their DMVs to do more.

The other part of the driving benefit is that many illegal aliens who can't get a legal DL because they don't have documentation continue to drive anyway. That means, they get the benefit of using our roads without having to pass a driving test or getting/keeping insurance.

right. Under current law - driving without license is an arrestable offense. Since the driver will be criminally-charged for driving without license.... the cop can check for his immigration status.

"Illegal kids" are NOT easily identified. No, they are NOT allowed to be identified by the schools, and the schools are NOT allowed to report the parents for deportation.

They do get foreign language interpreters for parent/teacher meetings, and English tutoring for the students, no questions asked.

sure it is. words get around. it will get pretty obvious. somebody will make an anonymous call to I.C.E.

Social responsibility and legal benefits are two separate issues. The question was about which benefits they were getting to which they were not legally entitled.

It might interest you to know that churches and private groups take upon themselves the expenses and services to provide aid and assistance to illegal aliens. That help is NOT a legal entitlement but acts of conscience and humanity. I'm fine with that. If anyone, out of the goodness of their hearts wants to provide help (without breaking laws), that's fine.

I don't want to go into details but I do put my money where my mouth is on a regular basis about my viewpoint on this.

yes I'm aware of such humanitarian action for illegals but on legal standpoint - if one wants to be anal and xenophobic - one can say ya'all are aiding and abetting the illegals even by providing food. Thanks God we are not like that.

Social Responsibility is tied to the laws. We have a social responsibility to help the children (legal or illegal) in America. That's why the law allows us to do so.

Well, it's the participants themselves who admitted they were "illegal" so they could be lying.

"More Immigrants Take to Streets to Protest Proposed Laws

Tuesday, April 11, 2006

WASHINGTON — As many as 100 cities across the country served as hosts Monday to rallies and protests against any get-tough measures federal lawmakers are considering to crack down on illegal immigration.

Protests were held in cities such as Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Atlanta and Phoenix, and Texas cities such as Houston, Austin and El Paso. In North Carolina and Dallas, immigrant groups called for an economic boycott to show their financial impact. Rally participants sang "We Shall Overcome" in Spanish at the Mississippi Capitol in Jackson.

...Elsa Rodriguez, 25, talked about the baby girl she expected to give birth to in about three months.

'This is why I had to be here,' she said. 'She's going to be a U.S. citizen and I'm here illegal?'

...Cruz Luna, his wife and their four children all wore T-shirts reading "God Bless America" at a demonstration in Pensacola, Fla. The two oldest children — ages 8 and 9 — were born in Mexico and are in the U.S. illegally; their younger siblings, ages 4 years and 8 months old are U.S. citizens.

...In Phoenix, Miguel Penate, a fast-food restaurant manager who moved from El Salvador six years ago, said being in the country illegally was his only option...."
More Immigrants Take to Streets to Protest Proposed Laws - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum - FOXNews.com

lol so what happened to those who yelled about them being here illegally?

Too bad they couldn't have prevented the crime, especially the violent ones. Some of the illegal aliens not only cross the border illegally but also have criminal records in their home countries.

most of violent ones have criminal records relating to gang and/or drug. Here's the latest news - Arizona deputy shot by suspected drug trafficker, officials say
"The deputy radioed that he had encountered five men, some wielding long guns and handguns, and said they were carrying a large amount of marijuana."

"Earlier this week, a CNN crew spent 12 hours on patrol with Pinal County deputies. In that time, the deputies captured more than 50 suspected illegal immigrants and about 2,000 pounds of marijuana."

""Frankly this is just a very horrible story, but we should not generalize," Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office, told CNN's Rick Sanchez when news of Friday's shooting broke. "We should focus on the criminality of the drug traffickers ... not scapegoat undocumented immigrants who do not pose any threat to society."

How is a state cracking down on employers "vigilantism?" The state passes and enforces laws that prohibit the hiring of undocumented workers. That's not vigilantism.

no no. the state is cracking down on illegal immigration on local street by requiring officers to ask about immigration status. That is vigilantism. The law has already existed for a long time that it's illegal for employer to hire illegals so why do we need to pass another law for same thing?

 

[Reba]

...so what do you propose? stick to law and throw him out on street while he's in coma?

I didn't propose anything; I simply answered your question:

"so what kind of medical care have they been receiving?"

I propose don't let them into the country to begin with so they won't get sick or injured and need hospital services.

What do you propose?

 

[Jiro]

I didn't propose anything; I simply answered your question:

"so what kind of medical care have they been receiving?"

I propose don't let them into the country to begin with so they won't get sick or injured and need hospital services.

What do you propose?

But you didn't give me a crystal-clear answer. You gave me a single case with extenuating circumstance - an illegal with 2-years long coma. The existing federal law stated that public hospitals must provide emergency care to all people - regardless of their immigration status. Nothing else - preventative medicine, post-care, etc.

I've already provided you a link that the illegals cannot receive anything other than emergency care for free.

So what do I propose? well we have moral, legal, social, etc. responsibility to provide emergency care to illegals but you and I and everybody else would like to reduce the number of illegals receiving emergency care. How? Tighten up the border to significantly reduce the number of illegal entry... not giving more power to local police like Gestapo

 

[Rampratt]

Here is something to read on this subject if interested.
immigration: West's Encyclopedia of American Law (Full Article) from Answers.com
For those of you that feel the new law in Arizona is unfair, please put your money where your mouth is. It is costing the legal residents of Arizona about 2 million and more a year to pay for the costs associated with the illegal residents. That money could well be spent paying for services like schools for the legal residents. I might suggest that the state park busses along the border and when full drive to San Francisco and unload and maybe a couple more loads to Central Park in N.Y. and Chicago. At the rate we are going it would be a steady line of busses. In the state of Arizona last year 6000 illegals were arrested, another 2000 just sent back across the boarder. One thing the law has done according to the Phoenix newspaper's is cause many illegals to leave the state. If they leave that solves a lot of the problems. An officer was shot in the stomach just a few miles from were I live. Not a good feeling and yes it was illegals.

 

[Rampratt]

Probably the wrong place to post this but I think interesting and worth reading. Maybe someone can move it where it belongs?


Since the Pledge of Allegiance and The Lord's Prayer Are not allowed in most public schools anymore and Because the word 'God' is mentioned... A Kid in Arizona wrote the following

NEW School prayer:
Now I sit me down in school Where praying is against the rule For this great nation under God Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites, It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green, That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise. Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate, God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.. They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable. We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's 'inappropriate' to teach right from wrong, We're taught that such 'judgments' do not belong...
We can get our condoms and birth controls, Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, No word of God must reach this crowd. It's scary here I must confess, When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make: Should I be shot; My soul please take! Amen

 

[Reba]

But you didn't give me a crystal-clear answer. You gave me a single case with extenuating circumstance - an illegal with 2-years long coma. The existing federal law stated that public hospitals must provide emergency care to all people - regardless of their immigration status. Nothing else - preventative medicine, post-care, etc.

You wanted examples, and I gave you at least two specific ones (the coma patient, and the amputation patient with after care), and two general ones including dialysis and chemotherapy, which aren't usually emergency room visits.

I don't know how extensive a report you expect from me.

I've already provided you a link that the illegals cannot receive anything other than emergency care for free.

It said that illegal aliens are not legally entitled to the care. It didn't say they didn't get the care. There is a difference.

If a person doesn't tell the truth about status or the hospital doesn't force for proof of status, then the patient will be served.

I don't want to discus any details about that link because, for some reason, you picked a story with people in it whom I know personally. Potential conflict of interest or bias for me.

So what do I propose? well we have moral, legal, social, etc. responsibility to provide emergency care to illegals but you and I and everybody else would like to reduce the number of illegals receiving emergency care. How? Tighten up the border to significantly reduce the number of illegal entry... not giving more power to local police like Gestapo

Like I've been saying all along, first don't let any more illegal aliens in. Then, we can start dealing with the situation as it is.

 

[Reba]

sure it is. words get around. it will get pretty obvious. somebody will make an anonymous call to I.C.E.

That's not how it works everywhere.

yes I'm aware of such humanitarian action for illegals but on legal standpoint - if one wants to be anal and xenophobic - one can say ya'all are aiding and abetting the illegals even by providing food. Thanks God we are not like that.

Most charitable organizations have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

right. Under current law - driving without license is an arrestable offense. Since the driver will be criminally-charged for driving without license.... the cop can check for his immigration status.

That's the problem. They aren't always allowed to do that.

lol so what happened to those who yelled about them being here illegally?

most of violent ones have criminal records relating to gang and/or drug.

A good reason to tighten our borders.

no no. the state is cracking down on illegal immigration on local street by requiring officers to ask about immigration status. That is vigilantism. The law has already existed for a long time that it's illegal for employer to hire illegals so why do we need to pass another law for same thing?

Jiro's Quote:
it is illegal under federal law for employer to hire illegals
Reba's Reply:
They are getting better about cracking down on that now but it has happened and is happening still.

The topic was cracking down on employers who hire illegal workers. You specifically brought it up, and I replied. It was never about cracking down on people on the street.

 

[Rampratt]

Reba; That is exactly what this new law in Arizona is trying to do. "make the price higher than they are willing to pay" and they wont come in. Several have already left due to this new law. I agree thoroughly, keep them out and let them enter through regular legal channels but obviously more want to come over than we can accommodate. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer. Our Governor had no choice as the Federal Govt. is not doing it's job. If it was then this would not have been necessary.