Coffee Party turns bitter...

Reba said:
I didn't say they weren't entitled to due process. One can be entitled to due process but still have to watch over the shoulder.


Maybe. Depends on how the investigations pan out.
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since now you're saying they are entitled to due process - then that means they do have civil rights.
 
Tousi said:
Did you really mean human rights?
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fundamentally - they're same thing. "Human Rights" is the international world sanctioned by United Nations and Amnesty International. Once the person is on American soil - they have civil rights.

Like I said before - Supreme Court made it perfectly cleared about this. Illegals have civil rights. period. That remains unchanged for over 25 years.
 
Jiro said:
since now you're saying they are entitled to due process - then that means they do have civil rights.
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They have limited civil rights. They have the right to due process. That's pretty much it.

Civil rights even to citizens can be limited, such as convicted felons losing the right to vote.

Illegal aliens don't have those rights to begin with, so they aren't losing anything.
 
Reba said:
They have limited civil rights. They have the right to due process. That's pretty much it.

Civil rights even to citizens can be limited, such as convicted felons losing the right to vote.
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exactly! there you go. The illegals DO NOT have more rights than law-abiding citizens. They have a limited civil rights but some people keep screaming that they have more rights than us. :dunno:

Reba said:
Illegal aliens don't have those rights to begin with, so they aren't losing anything.
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yes... until they're on American soil. the only loss they have is their hard-earned money down the drain (to coyote) when getting caught and deported back.
 
Jiro said:
fundamentally - they're same thing. "Human Rights" is the international world sanctioned by United Nations and Amnesty International.
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Illegal aliens who are on American soil have the right not to be abused by authorities (human rights), and to have legal due process (US Constitution).

Once the person is on American soil - they have civil rights.
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See above.

Like I said before - Supreme Court made it perfectly cleared about this. Illegals have civil rights. period. That remains unchanged for over 25 years.
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Maybe you should enumerate exactly what you mean by "civil rights." We seem to have a disconnect in mutual understanding here.
 
Jiro said:
exactly! there you go. The illegals DO NOT have more rights than law-abiding citizens. They have a limited civil rights but some people keep screaming that they have more rights than us. :dunno:
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Perhaps it would be better to say they seem to have benefits of our country to which they are not entitled?

yes... until they're on American soil. the only loss they have is their hard-earned money down the drain (to coyote) when getting caught and deported back.
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That's a material loss, not a loss of rights by our government.
 
yeah koko, Reba is respectable, she's my imaginary girlfriend
 
Yay... the immigration debate is back, where stupidity is more on display than any other debate, where I have to start every thought with "I am very in favor of legal immigration and opposed to illegal immigration", where hearing that I'm a Nazi is par for the course. Yay...
 
Jiro said:
like what?
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For starters, medical care beyond emergency services, schooling for their children, social services, driving privileges, political promoters, and employment. I'm sure other posters can come up with more.
 
darkdog said:
Yay... the immigration debate is back, where stupidity is more on display than any other debate, where I have to start every thought with "I am very in favor of legal immigration and opposed to illegal immigration", where hearing that I'm a Nazi is par for the course. Yay...
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Maybe both the tea and coffee parties should switch to decaf? :giggle:
 
Wirelessly posted

Reba said:
Jiro said:
like what?
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For starters, medical care beyond emergency services, schooling for their children, social services, driving privileges, political promoters, and employment. I'm sure other posters can come up with more.
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All technically illegal. Problem is, those services are done in cash and behind closed doors.


That's why we have insurances, driver licences, social security numbers and health cards; those identifications are tokens of the priliveges we have. Problems we have? Fraud.
 
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Reba said:
For starters, medical care beyond emergency services,
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Obamacare is very explicit about this - illegals are NOT covered by Obama's plan but public hospitals are required to render emergency care to the illegals. Beside - they will get deported back anyway.

Reba said:
schooling for their children
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what's wrong with that? I'm all about promoting education and democracy. Beside - we go into other countries to promote education, equality, and democracy and we preach it too, right?

I'm not sure where but the studies show that handful of illegals kids grow up to be useful for the society.... like Cesar Milan. Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's a small price to pay in the long run. They will integrate with the society and most will pay for their crimes with a hefty fines and other penalty whatever the court deems fit.

and yes there is also a problem that they will grow up as criminals and breed more criminals. Perhaps we should focus on revising our socioeconomic approach to dealing with criminal elements instead of doing endless cycle of arrest-and-jail them. Meanwhile - we have a more serious problem too. The white collar crime.... the one who bilked us millions, if not billions of dollars by fraudulent means. The cost of white collar crime is so astronomical that the financial burden on us incurred by illegals is nothing comparable to it.

Reba said:
social services
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this is relating to illegal kids, right? Well thanks God we're not savage where we would discard illegal kids on street or ignore illegal kids' silent plea for help when they show signs of rape, abuse, or malnourishment. We have social responsibility with Christian belief even though I'm not Christian but I am a firm believer of helping others. Robert Krentz was a good man. I don't think he would support this Arizona's new immigration law but he definitely did want the federal government to step up the plate and put more resource in securing our border.

Reba said:
driving privileges
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illegal in most states

Reba said:
political promoters
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really? are you sure they would risk being in public eye if they're an illegal, knowing that they will be arrested and deported back?

Reba said:
employment
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it is illegal under federal law for employer to hire illegals

Reba said:
I'm sure other posters can come up with more.
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:ty: for examples. I want to point out that I'm sure most of illegals didn't come to America for medical care, school, social service, driving privilege, or political involvement. Most came here illegally because we hire them and pay them the amount that they cannot even come close to it by half in their home countries.

Focus on employers, not illegals. Take away the source of money and the illegals will go somewhere else. I have seen bunch of secret videos that I.C.E. and law enforcement agency are turning a blind eye on major corporations' factories. Most of you are most likely using the computer, eating the food, using the products, and wearing the clothes that are done by illegals.

Focus on revising our Drug War policy. Legalize some drugs. Our Drug War policy is exacerbating our illegal immigration problem. When the gang (American criminals) need reinforcement, they bring in muscle from abroad. This is same tactic used by us and the terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq & Afghanistan have insurgents coming in from all around the world to fight against us and we are fighting against them along with other countries.
 
From Jiro...

Most came here illegally because we hire them and pay them the amount that they cannot even come close to it by half in their home countries.

Focus on employers, not illegals. Take away the source of money and the illegals will go somewhere else. I have seen bunch of secret videos that I.C.E. and law enforcement agency are turning a blind eye on major corporations' factories. Most of you are most likely using the computer, eating the food, using the products, and wearing the clothes that are done by illegals.

I have to vouch for that because I married a man who, as a child, came to this country illegally by his parents. His parents came for the opportunities and to be able to feed their children instead of living in extreme extreme poverty in Mexico under corruption. No, it doesnt make it right but I totally understand their reasons for it. How can an extremely poor and uneducated family get the resources to get citizenship unless they get the money for them first. When they got enough money saved and got better educated about America, they applied for resident alien cards and work permits. Then, they were able to get hired as taxpayers.
 
So, it's an excuse and justification to enter a country illegally? As much as we may want we cannot have an open border situation any more than leaving your front door open for all to enter at any time while you have your valuables, resources and people living in there.
 
kokonut said:
So, it's an excuse and justification to enter a country illegally? As much as we may want we cannot have an open border situation any more than leaving your front door open for all to enter at any time while you have your valuables, resources and people living in there.
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The illegals are entitled with Civil Rights once they're on American soil as stated by our Founding Fathers and Supreme Courts. That's why we must do our damnest to prevent them from coming into this country illegally. Put up the fence. Build a moat. Boost up the number of Border Patrol Agents. Increase the funding. All fine to me but I question this action - is it working? is it necessary to spend billions of dollars in this when illegals can still get in?

Why don't we focus on removing the source of attraction? the employers.
 
Jiro said:
The illegals are entitled with Civil Rights once they're on American soil as stated by our Founding Fathers and Supreme Courts. That's why we must do our damnest to prevent them from coming into this country illegally. Put up the fence. Build a moat. Boost up the number of Border Patrol Agents. Increase the funding. All fine to me but I question this action - is it working? is it necessary to spend billions of dollars in this when illegals can still get in?

Why don't we focus on removing the source of attraction? the employers.
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And why are the employers hiring the illegals?
 
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