Cochlear implant mends lives

[jillio]

U know..after graduation, I had a hard time finding a job teaching deaf ed due to no availabilities so I applied for a position just like yours at Montgomery Community College cuz I had a great experience from the student support services at ASU. I didnt get the job due to having no experience at all.

But now you have experience in deaf ed, and that would translate to experience with accommodations under the ADA. My college took into accountthat I had experience from advocating for my son, and the fact that I had my MEd in couseling helped. You are in pretty much the same position, now. You have your Med, and you have experience working with deaf students.

 

[shel90]

We've had this discussion before--of course you are not a simpleton! Children do things for many many different reason, and quite often it has nothing to do with their preference. And if a child is given the message, even subtly, that a parent is more approving of speech than sign, they will use speech. not based on preference, but to gain parental approval.
that is a simplified explanation, but I'm sure you can see the direction it heads.

But Cloggy said that he uses signs?? I am getting more confused with this situation..If the parents refuse to use signing with their children, then that would make sense but Cloggy said he and his family use sign with Lotte but she is responding using spoken language? I have encountered families like his in which the parents alternate between signing or spoken language and the deaf children use more spoken language at home but at school with their peers use sign language. Is that what u are saying? That the child recognizes that the spoken language is the primary mode of communication of the parents and adapts to meet the parents' needs?

 

[rockdrummer]

We've had this discussion before--of course you are not a simpleton! Children do things for many many different reason, and quite often it has nothing to do with their preference. And if a child is given the message, even subtly, that a parent is more approving of speech than sign, they will use speech. not based on preference, but to gain parental approval.
that is a simplified explanation, but I'm sure you can see the direction it heads.

I agree but that really depends on the type of environment the child is brought up in.

 

[jillio]

Of course I'm very much aware that IQ tests have been modified for the deaf/hoh in fact I'm the one that insisted the first time they did one of the idiot tests that if they really must they must use the one that was visual.

That was hmmm, at least 10 or so years ago. Having had contact with a dr. of phycology in the clinic my daughter goes to and having had her write a damm report twisting parental input I have absolutly no tolerance for that type of input. speech, writing any mode of communication is open to misinterpetations. Having someone tell me the 'age' of my daughters mind doesn't do much to develope the IEP. Having them tell me where she is in certain skills does. IQ's also give many (even deaf educators) a bias and make them believe that a child can't do something because of the number. So I am and always will be anit IQ.

I agree that IQ tests have their limitations, and if a teacher is basing the treatment of any child based on something like that, I perosnally don't feel they have any business teaching children. The IQ tests can, however, provide a useful bit of diagnostic information when they have been administered properly, when the proper instrument has been used, and they are viewed as simply part of a complex picture and not the whole picture.

I am sorry that you had such a poor experience with the psychologist. Not knowing all thedetails of the incident, I can't comment much. But I would suggest that determining the age level at which a child is developmentally determines what skills they should have, what ones are delayed, and whether or not they are developmentally ready to learn certain skills.

 

[jillio]

I agree but that really depends on the type of environment the child is brought up in.

right. And that is one of the extraneous variable that I was talking about. So, see, you got a lot more than you though you did!

 

[jillio]

But Cloggy said that he uses signs?? I am getting more confused with this situation..If the parents refuse to use signing with their children, then that would make sense but Cloggy said he and his family use sign with Lotte but she is responding using spoken language? I have encountered families like his in which the parents alternate between signing or spoken language and the deaf children use more spoken language at home but at school with their peers use sign language. Is that what u are saying? That the child recognizes that the spoken language is the primary mode of communication of the parents and adapts to meet the parents' needs?

BINGO! And it could also be a situationwhere the deaf child is the only deaf member of the family. If the parents aren't signing anytime the child is present, and doesn't sign to the other children in the deaf child's presence, the deaf child is given the message that speech is preferred.

 

[shel90]

BINGO! And it could also be a situationwhere the deaf child is the only deaf member of the family. If the parents aren't signing anytime the child is present, and doesn't sign to the other children in the deaf child's presence, the deaf child is given the message that speech is preferred.

Never really thought of it that way. No wonder my brother never used signing at home even though he had no speech skills. He always used whatever distorted speech he had to meet our oral needs. Can u imagine this scenario?

I was the only one who could understand his distorted speech and I was the only one he could understand via lipreading so I always had to interpret for him between our parents and family members ..instead of this signing to spoken and then spoken to signing...it was spoken to spoken and then spoken to spoken back to him. Doesnt make sense doesnt it but that was what happend in our household with my brother...he used whatever spoken language he had and I would interpret his spoken language using my clearer spoken language to whoever didnt know sign (heck I didnt know sign at the time either) and that person would use spoken language to me and I use spoken language to interpret their message to my brother. That is totally MESSED up!

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Yes, I do think it makes my job a bit easier, because my students can tell me what they need from their point of view without a parent stepping in and saying "oh, no, my child doesn't need a sign terp because they are oral." You would be amazed at the number ofkids that went through mainstream ed as oral students that actually use a sign terp at the college level. Once they are exposed to it, they realize what a benefit it can be in the classroom. You already know from personal experience, that many people raised orally embrace sign once they have reached the age that they can make their own decision based on what they themselves think they need and not on what some well meaning hearie has told them they need. I admire your stamina for dealing with the parents who simply refuse to understand. I don't believe for one minute that they are intentionally harming or neglecting their childre, but I do know that many are simply unable to step out of their hearing perspective long enough to see the issues from a deaf perspective.
they are making a sincere attempt to do what is best, but simply cannot understand that what you think is best from your side is not always best from the child's side.

It must be so wonderful for you to be able to understand the needs of deaf students from a deaf perspective.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

We've had this discussion before--of course you are not a simpleton! Children do things for many many different reason, and quite often it has nothing to do with their preference. And if a child is given the message, even subtly, that a parent is more approving of speech than sign, they will use speech. not based on preference, but to gain parental approval.
that is a simplified explanation, but I'm sure you can see the direction it heads.

And you know this because you have been in the mind of all deaf students oral and signing. Is this why you make these assumptions? It must feel so good to know all deaf students' needs.

 

[shel90]

And you know this because you have been in the mind of all deaf students oral and signing. Is this why you make these assumptions? It must feel so good to know all deaf students' needs.

She is right in a way...my deaf friends and I have talked about this. I would say about 80% of my deaf friends and coworkers used spoken language at home with their parents and other family members growing up and those who went to signing programs did the same thing too. My friends and I always tell those who have parents (doesn't matter if hearing or deaf) who can sign that they r so lucky! Just like u mentioned that your kids' friends tell your kids that they r lucky u know some signs as opposed to none like many of our parents do.

However many of us,as children, naturally adapted to our families' method of communication because it was easier for them but doesn't mean it was easier for us. that includes many of my HOH friends too and since CIs make deaf children HOH, I would assume they r not catching everything being spoken around them at home at all times?

 

[rick48]

Cloggy uses the oral only approach NOW!! Because LOTTE PREFERS IT!! He HAS used sign, and still does - I've even seen pictures of his daughter and her mom signing - but if LOTTE herself prefers to speak - is that bad????

Never mind..its like banging my head against a brick wall..it serves no purpose and just gives me a headache. I guess you'll never understand.

Neecy,

I know perfectly well what you mean about feeling like you are banging your head against a wall.

Here is the exact quote by Jillio from post #150:

"I don't have a problem with someone who wants to provide services that will allow their child to develop oral skills, either. My problem is with parents who insist that oral skills are the ONLY skill a deaf child needs and treaat manual language as a crutch."

When you challenged her to back up her baseless allegation with facts, we get the old Jillio double talk and non-answer in post #157:

"Get your facts straight. Rick said that his daughter started learning sign after she started college and made some deaf friends. You need to read these posts a little more thoroughly before you jump into the conversation and start criticizing me."

Oh Jillio, instead of constantly trolling after Cloggy and me and now Jackie, it is you who need to get your facts straight and please do not attach my name to your misrepresentations and distortions. My daughter has had many deaf friends since she was a toddler. Her deaf friends and her hearing friends are integrated with each other. What I said is that, as her circle of deaf friends has expanded, she took ASL in college in order to better communicate with those who do not have the same level of oral skills she has. What I did not say then but will add now, is that she also took it to fulfill a liberal arts requirement as well. Oh well, Jillio, I guess it is you who needs "to read these posts a little more thoroughly". But then, why let the facts get in the way of one of your attacks upon me and others who chose a different path for their children then you did for your child.

Neecy,

Did you notice how Jillio completely ignored the manual language as a crutch part? That is because none of us has ever said it and rather then admit what she posted was not true, or gasp!!! a mistake, she just ignores it. The fact is, that the person who repeatedly uses the term crutch in connection with manual language is her pal, DD. I guess she won't be able to give herself a self-congratulatory pat on the back this time


Rick

 

[jag]

However many of us,as children, naturally adapted to our families' method of communication because it was easier for them but doesn't mean it was easier for us. that includes many of my HOH friends too and since CIs make deaf children HOH, I would assume they r not catching everything being spoken around them at home at all times?

As a hoh mom with a hoh child now young adult we got along just fine without ASL. In fact the child has/had selective hearing. I mean one time I recall I stood in front of her and made her repeat what I wanted her to do. She did so but it evidently went in one ear and out the other since when she didn't do the task and was asked why not she said I didn't tell her to. Her husband says he's never seen anyone so unaware of her surroundings as her. Evidently he's never seen her day focused on the task at hand and me waving my arms trying to get his attention across the yard. Oh well.

 

[jag]

. What I said is that, as her circle of deaf friends has expanded, she took ASL in college in order to better communicate with those who do not have the same level of oral skills she has. What I did not say then but will add now, is that she also took it to fulfill a liberal arts requirement as well. Oh well, Jillio, I guess it is you who needs "to read these posts a little more thoroughly". But then, why let the facts get in the way of one of your attacks upon me and others who chose a different path for their children then you did for your child.

Hi Rick I kinda figured that you daughter took the ASL as her forgien language requirement. My three girls who've gone through college all took ASL for that requirement. Only the youngest of the three actually ever uses it at times. she's the hoh one.

 

[jillio]

Never really thought of it that way. No wonder my brother never used signing at home even though he had no speech skills. He always used whatever distorted speech he had to meet our oral needs. Can u imagine this scenario?

I was the only one who could understand his distorted speech and I was the only one he could understand via lipreading so I always had to interpret for him between our parents and family members ..instead of this signing to spoken and then spoken to signing...it was spoken to spoken and then spoken to spoken back to him. Doesnt make sense doesnt it but that was what happend in our household with my brother...he used whatever spoken language he had and I would interpret his spoken language using my clearer spoken language to whoever didnt know sign (heck I didnt know sign at the time either) and that person would use spoken language to me and I use spoken language to interpret their message to my brother. That is totally MESSED up!

Wow! That had to be some situation! But, I bet looking back, and knowing what you know now, you want to laugh and cry at the same time! But, yeah, people just don't seem to think about the messages they send to their kids covertly. They'll say, I never told my kids that oral was best!" But then they don't learn sign, and they force the kids to communicate at home orally. Maybe they don't say it in words, but they sure as heck say it with behavior. And that's the message the kid takes with them.

 

[jillio]

It must be so wonderful for you to be able to understand the needs of deaf students from a deaf perspective.

Not wonderful for me, but wonderful for the deaf students that I work with. This isn't about me, its about them.

 

[jillio]

And you know this because you have been in the mind of all deaf students oral and signing. Is this why you make these assumptions? It must feel so good to know all deaf students' needs.

I know this because A) I actually communicate with my deaf clients, and have developed a good rapport with them.
B) I give high credibility to what they tell me, and take the attitude that they are the ones that live with their deafness and therefore are ultimately qualified to make those decisions regarding what they need and don't need.
C) Because I believe it is unbelievably arrogant for a hearing person to tell a deaf individual that they know better than the deaf individual themselves what is best for them, simply because they are hearing. D) Because I have extensive education in psychology, deaf studies, and 20+ years experience in putting myself in the other person's shoes in order to better understand their unique position, E) Because I also have extensive coursework in child development, behavioral theories, and cognitive theories, E) Because this is a dialy part of my life, and something I am involved in both professionally and personally, and F) Because of the feedback I receive from the Deaf/deaf population regarding the way that interact with them, and my understanding deafness, including the educational, sociological, and psychological implications. I don't make assumptions. That is what the strict oralists do. They assume that oral is best simply because they are oral and the majority are hearing. I actually listen and let my deaf students tell me what they need. Therefore, it is not assumption, but fact. Any more questions?

 

[jillio]

Neecy,

I know perfectly well what you mean about feeling like you are banging your head against a wall.

Here is the exact quote by Jillio from post #150:

"I don't have a problem with someone who wants to provide services that will allow their child to develop oral skills, either. My problem is with parents who insist that oral skills are the ONLY skill a deaf child needs and treaat manual language as a crutch."

When you challenged her to back up her baseless allegation with facts, we get the old Jillio double talk and non-answer in post #157:

"Get your facts straight. Rick said that his daughter started learning sign after she started college and made some deaf friends. You need to read these posts a little more thoroughly before you jump into the conversation and start criticizing me."

Oh Jillio, instead of constantly trolling after Cloggy and me and now Jackie, it is you who need to get your facts straight and please do not attach my name to your misrepresentations and distortions. My daughter has had many deaf friends since she was a toddler. Her deaf friends and her hearing friends are integrated with each other. What I said is that, as her circle of deaf friends has expanded, she took ASL in college in order to better communicate with those who do not have the same level of oral skills she has. What I did not say then but will add now, is that she also took it to fulfill a liberal arts requirement as well. Oh well, Jillio, I guess it is you who needs "to read these posts a little more thoroughly". But then, why let the facts get in the way of one of your attacks upon me and others who chose a different path for their children then you did for your child.

Neecy,

Did you notice how Jillio completely ignored the manual language as a crutch part? That is because none of us has ever said it and rather then admit what she posted was not true, or gasp!!! a mistake, she just ignores it. The fact is, that the person who repeatedly uses the term crutch in connection with manual language is her pal, DD. I guess she won't be able to give herself a self-congratulatory pat on the back this time


Rick

I said treated, not said. You need to learn to read with a greater degree of comprehension. And, BTW--did your daughter not learn sign language after she became old enough to make her own decisions, or were you making that up? And I stand by my assertion that proposing oral language as the ONLY method of communication, and treating manual communication as if it were a crutch does immeasureable harm to deaf children educationally and socially. If you could step out of your little self constructed oralist box long enough to look around and have a little empathy for those in the population that share your daughter's deafness, you would understand that. But I suppose since your wife did all the work, as you have admitted, in raising your daughter, and she is now of adult age, you figure your job is finished.

 

[jackiesolorzano]

Wow! That had to be some situation! But, I bet looking back, and knowing what you know now, you want to laugh and cry at the same time! But, yeah, people just don't seem to think about the messages they send to their kids covertly. They'll say, I never told my kids that oral was best!" But then they don't learn sign, and they force the kids to communicate at home orally. Maybe they don't say it in words, but they sure as heck say it with behavior. And that's the message the kid takes with them.

Jillo you kept saying that maybe we parents of oral deaf children let our kids know that oral is better without actually saying it. Both of my children have read many of your messages and what others say. I tell them what you and others think that I am forcing them to be oral that I am not accepting that they are deaf. Their answer to you is that you do not know who we are and how dare you say these awful things about their mother. Again I do not make assumptions of what other parents do or say but I know what I do and say to my children. My children know that they can drop their voice whenever they want if they want. They know that I am able to sign not well but that I will take more ASL classes if they choose to drop their voice. Just the other day I was signing to my niece and my daughter told me why are you doing that she does not know sign language. I told my daughter I will teach her, she said no she does not need to learn sign language because I can hear her and I can talk to her.
So why do you make assumptions about my children or me. How do you know what I say and do with my children.

 

[Cloggy]

Cloggy--We don't use sign because it is not necessary any more. My daughter is hearing.
.......

What... no link to where I said that... I cannot find it... which doesn't surprise me....
I do recall saying "My daughter can hear." but be a good - welleducated, evidence proving - girl, and show me where I said that....

 

[Drew's Dad]

Jillo you kept saying that maybe we parents of oral deaf children let our kids know that oral is better without actually saying it. Both of my children have read many of your messages and what others say. I tell them what you and others think that I am forcing them to be oral that I am not accepting that they are deaf. Their answer to you is that you do not know who we are and how dare you say these awful things about their mother. Again I do not make assumptions of what other parents do or say but I know what I do and say to my children. My children know that they can drop their voice whenever they want if they want. They know that I am able to sign not well but that I will take more ASL classes if they choose to drop their voice. Just the other day I was signing to my niece and my daughter told me why are you doing that she does not know sign language. I told my daughter I will teach her, she said no she does not need to learn sign language because I can hear her and I can talk to her.
So why do you make assumptions about my children or me. How do you know what I say and do with my children.

Don't get overly frustrated. I got a bit upset a while back and then I realized that it wasn't worth much of my time to debate the difference between a technical definition of a word vs. a meaning that one may or may not have assigned to that word in conversation, or to debate what "research" is valid and what is not.

There are people out there having what they consider success via oral-only educational settings. I have seen some of these kids and I feel they are "successes". This is much of the reason my son now has bilateral implants. The scientific, longitudinal data on these kids who are reporting such success won't be out for years.

There are also people out there that would never agree that those kids are having success, because their opinion is that they would have had more success if they had manual communication as well, and if they were not robbed of their identity as a human (among other reasons).

Debate is a healthy exercise in learning, but if you let this message board get you too upset it quickly becomes draining and unhealthy. Be careful!