Cochlear implant mends lives

[shel90]

I don't have a problem with what you've said in terms of the natural limitations of the study, which as you say, applies to many studies of that nature. It doesn't mean that the conclusions are not useful though, especially considering that this particular study contains a good sample size.

I brought it up as a matter of interest because the discussion on this thread touched upon the observation that Lotte, Cloggy's daughter had made a choice in her communication direction. It seems that in those cases the shift happens naturally over a process of time rather than people suddenly stopping sign because they've made a decision that their child is oral right now. However, I acknowledge that there are parents and professionals out there who are more forceful in that way.

I'd have to read the paper all the way through but it sounds like many of the parents were signing with their kids prior to the CI, which implies that they view it somewhat positively as a means of communicating with their children.

Yea, that's where I either overlooked or misunderstood Cloggy's prior statement about sign language is not needed. I thought he meant that they made the decision for their daughter but I see more clearly that she is going in the direction of spoken language rather than sign language. At least she was given the opportunity with both language (I think even more languages too) and let nature take its direction.

 

[jillio]

I don't have a problem with what you've said in terms of the natural limitations of the study, which as you say, applies to many studies of that nature. It doesn't mean that the conclusions are not useful though, especially considering that this particular study contains a good sample size.

I brought it up as a matter of interest because the discussion on this thread touched upon the observation that Lotte, Cloggy's daughter had made a choice in her communication direction. It seems that in those cases the shift happens naturally over a process of time rather than people suddenly stopping sign because they've made a decision that their child is oral right now. However, I acknowledge that there are parents and professionals out there who are more forceful in that way.

I'd have to read the paper all the way through but it sounds like many of the parents were signing with their kids prior to the CI, which implies that they view it somewhat positively as a means of communicating with their children.

Agreed. I am just pointing out that there are numerous parents out there who are often so biased toward the oral only approach that hteir observation is not always the most subjective in the world. When a parent wants so much for a child to be oral, they will ignore (often unintentionally) signs that the child is not being able to understand as much of the spoken language as they would perhaps believe. For instance, Db levels can be mistaken for discrimination, when the sound perception has come from the CI, but the discrimination is the result of excellent speech reading skills or contextual inference. And I strongly believe that if we are ever going to be able to have an impact on the educational situaltion for deaf children, raise literacy rates, and insure that they receive the same opportunities for success as their hearing peers, we must always keep these limitations in mind. If we refuse to receognize them, we do not address the area that need to be addressed in oreder to correct deficiencies in education.

 

[jillio]

Cloggy uses the oral only approach NOW!! Because LOTTE PREFERS IT!! He HAS used sign, and still does - I've even seen pictures of his daughter and her mom signing - but if LOTTE herself prefers to speak - is that bad????

Never mind..its like banging my head against a brick wall..it serves no purpose and just gives me a headache. I guess you'll never understand.

Frankly, neecy, I don't care what approach cloggy uses with his daughter in a social situation or a home environment. I am concerned, however with the protrayal of the CI as a scientific miracle that will solve all of the issues of the deaf individual--socially, educationally, and employment-wise. And this article, merely by its title, implies just that. If cloggy's daughter is successful in an oral environment, that's wonderful. This article doesn't affect her. Whom it does affect, however, all many, many hearing parents who are given the false impression that a CI will provide all sorts of wonderful opportunites for their child, and that the development of expressive spoken language equates to the development of receptive spoken language and thorough acquisition. Until we realize the limitations of studies such as these, we are refusing to look at the real issues that are impacting the literacy rates and the educational achievement of deaf students.

And, I think you will agree that using oral communication in a home environment s quite often more successful than the attempt to do so in an educational environment for numerous and obvious reasons.

 

[rockdrummer]

The fact that parents answered the questionaires means that it was the parent's perspective that communication change was child-led. Do you see the problems with validity here?

That doesn't make me question the validity. Why would you question it just because its from the parents perspective? It doesn't seem to me to be a subjective issue. Either the child initiated it or they didn't. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Unless you are suggesting the parents lied about it. I can't for the life of me imagine why a parent would do that. Am I missing something here?

 

[jillio]

That doesn't make me question the validity. Why would you question it just because its from the parents perspective? It doesn't seem to me to be a subjective issue. Either the child initiated it or they didn't. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Unless you are suggesting the parents lied about it. I can't for the life of me imagine why a parent would do that. Am I missing something here?

Yeah, go back and read the explanation that followed later in the discussion.

 

[rockdrummer]

Yeah, go back and read the explanation that followed later in the discussion.

I saw it and there is a lot of theory in it. I agree with you if this was a complicated issue. Correct me if I am wrong but a child initiating conversation using speech doesn't seem that complicated to me. Either they have initiated it or they haven't. Perhaps I am just a simpleton and don't really comprehend the issue.

 

[jag]

A) Read the postings of others, not cloggy.

B) I don't have a problem with someone who wants to provide services that will allow their child to develop oral skills, either. My problem is with parents who insist that oral skills are the ONLY skill a deaf child needs and treaat manual language as a crutch.

C) And you are incorrect. I have contact on a dialy basis with many deaf/Deaf individuals, including CI users. If you will go back and read some of my pposts, you will know that I am employed in the disability services dept. of a large state university, and that I also provide counseling services to the deaf.

D) How is it that you know that my son hasn't posted on here? You are assuming quite a bit, and your assumptions are in error.

A. I believe I had specifially brought up Cloggy and you answered in return about him. btw I have read the posting. thank you very much.

B. So far I have only seen 1 (one) parent here who has said that spoken language is all a child with CI needs. And that was just recently.

C. Actually yes I did understand you are working with the Deaf/hoh. But you are still observing their problems second hand. It is you who are(or is?) saying that parental observations aren't worth a crap.

D. I wouldn't know if your son has posted here since it's an anounomous (can't spell lol) board. as I stated I really don't care, the comment had to do with your saying your observations are ok but other parents aren't. I really have not doubts that he's happy with the choices you made when raising him.

I do know what it's like to be in a classroom where you aren't getting a whole lot out of the instruction. BTDT

I do know what it's like to sit in a group supposedly having fun but not hearing what's going on. BTDT

I do know that the CI 'can' give people much much more then what they'd ever get out of a HA. BTDT And no it doesn't surprise me that some parents think it makes their kid hearing and doesn't require any additional work.

I do know that language acquistion is much easier for kids under the age of 5. Haven't btdt but did do some research when child with ds was a toddler in order to get her ST to use simple signs.

I do know that the parents on this board are involved in there child's life to a larger extent then the ones we don't see or hear from.

There are many variables as to why those young people come to get the assistance they are guarenteed through ADA and other disablity laws. I'd take advantage of them to, why not? I've already helped pay for them through my taxes, and I do have a handicap that should qualify me. These young people have actually made it into college then they have actually passed the entrence exams to get there so why wouldn't they be smart enough to use the services provided. Yes their journey through school would have been harder then those who can hear. BTDT. But "I" woudln't have wanted it any other way, even in my more frustrated days. I loved being with my FAMILY and friends.

Have a good day.

 

[jag]

Have to remember we have to be careful about interpreting the words that Cloggy uses cuz when he says his daughter is hearing, I think he is referring to the dB level not the comprehension level so that term "hearing" can mean a lot of things. When we use it, we think in terms of being able to acquire language through hearing but I think Cloggy is talking in terms of the dB level being the same as a hearing person. Or he could be saying my daughter is hearing as in "can hear things" not as a "hearing person" herself. Know what I mean.

QUOTE]

ACtually Shel he says something like my daughter is deaf but hearing...or is it deaf but hears. Since she is able to converse in I believe it is two languages and that would require being able to hear the sounds, espeically in a child who hasn't been formally taught the one, she does hear well enough to follow conversations. She's deaf but hears.....just as all of us Cyborgs are.

The problem with the 'can hear things' is that even profoundly deaf adults who've never heard a thing in their lives can hear with a CI. In their case they can 'hear things' as in eviromental noises, but they would most likely have to work harder to actually hear and carry on conversations like a hearing person. Since Cloggy's daughter does carry on conversations like a hearing child (even if her speech testing shows a slight lag) then she is actually hearing in a sense. Like me she is deaf but hears.

Hmmm, now I'm confused to.

 

[shel90]

Have to remember we have to be careful about interpreting the words that Cloggy uses cuz when he says his daughter is hearing, I think he is referring to the dB level not the comprehension level so that term "hearing" can mean a lot of things. When we use it, we think in terms of being able to acquire language through hearing but I think Cloggy is talking in terms of the dB level being the same as a hearing person. Or he could be saying my daughter is hearing as in "can hear things" not as a "hearing person" herself. Know what I mean.

QUOTE]

ACtually Shel he says something like my daughter is deaf but hearing...or is it deaf but hears. Since she is able to converse in I believe it is two languages and that would require being able to hear the sounds, espeically in a child who hasn't been formally taught the one, she does hear well enough to follow conversations. She's deaf but hears.....just as all of us Cyborgs are.

The problem with the 'can hear things' is that even profoundly deaf adults who've never heard a thing in their lives can hear with a CI. In their case they can 'hear things' as in eviromental noises, but they would most likely have to work harder to actually hear and carry on conversations like a hearing person. Since Cloggy's daughter does carry on conversations like a hearing child (even if her speech testing shows a slight lag) then she is actually hearing in a sense. Like me she is deaf but hears.

Hmmm, now I'm confused to.

Thanks for helping..I think I got what he meant by that but really at this point, doesnt matter anymore who can hear or cant hear what. All I just really care is that ALL deaf children have 100% access to language like their hearing counterparts instead of partial. That's my goal and hope. Maybe I am just asking for too much.

 

[jag]

Thanks for helping..I think I got what he meant by that but really at this point, doesnt matter anymore who can hear or cant hear what. All I just really care is that ALL deaf children have 100% access to language like their hearing counterparts instead of partial. That's my goal and hope. Maybe I am just asking for too much.

No Shel it's a good hope. I honestly wouldn't have wanted to be a profoundly deaf person having to rely on HA's and lip reading. UGH. while some kids can adapt just knowing my expericenc and I was mod/severe and moving down toward profound, UGH.

But I do agree. And the place to begin is to educate the educators and the implant staffs about the problems, the data is out there and actually the ST we had contact with during my youngest childs time in that school gave me the impression that HA's would give the child the access etc etc, I actually said one when the TDHI was there that no, they will amplyfy things but they aren't all you think they are. She looked at the TDHI and that woman said she's right. Being college educated doesn't mean much when you've never actually experienced something like deafness.

I shall spare everyone my comments on IQ tests and Physc evaluations.

 

[jillio]

A. I believe I had specifially brought up Cloggy and you answered in return about him. btw I have read the posting. thank you very much.

B. So far I have only seen 1 (one) parent here who has said that spoken language is all a child with CI needs. And that was just recently.

C. Actually yes I did understand you are working with the Deaf/hoh. But you are still observing their problems second hand. It is you who are(or is?) saying that parental observations aren't worth a crap.

D. I wouldn't know if your son has posted here since it's an anounomous (can't spell lol) board. as I stated I really don't care, the comment had to do with your saying your observations are ok but other parents aren't. I really have not doubts that he's happy with the choices you made when raising him.

I do know what it's like to be in a classroom where you aren't getting a whole lot out of the instruction. BTDT

I do know what it's like to sit in a group supposedly having fun but not hearing what's going on. BTDT

I do know that the CI 'can' give people much much more then what they'd ever get out of a HA. BTDT And no it doesn't surprise me that some parents think it makes their kid hearing and doesn't require any additional work.

I do know that language acquistion is much easier for kids under the age of 5. Haven't btdt but did do some research when child with ds was a toddler in order to get her ST to use simple signs.

I do know that the parents on this board are involved in there child's life to a larger extent then the ones we don't see or hear from.

There are many variables as to why those young people come to get the assistance they are guarenteed through ADA and other disablity laws. I'd take advantage of them to, why not? I've already helped pay for them through my taxes, and I do have a handicap that should qualify me. These young people have actually made it into college then they have actually passed the entrence exams to get there so why wouldn't they be smart enough to use the services provided. Yes their journey through school would have been harder then those who can hear. BTDT. But "I" woudln't have wanted it any other way, even in my more frustrated days. I loved being with my FAMILY and friends.

Have a good day.

I have never discounted the fact that CI provides benefit. What I disagree with is the attitude that the CI makes the deaf hearing simply through surgical intervention. I don't have a problem with services being provided under ADA laws--I advocate for just that professionally. And yes, had you been attending the college where I am employed, I would have advocated for you, as well.

I don't recommend services or communication methods basd on my observation. I institute the provision of services based on what my deaf students tell me they need. In fact, I just recently recommended that a student use a notetaker and an interpreter. He had requested only a notetaker because he did not know that he was entitled to both. He happens to be a CI user that communicates well orally in a situation where it is one on one, but was missing quite a lot of the discussion that goes on in a college classroom. What I don't do is meet with a student, and then make the judgement that we are not going to provide a terp, or any other service simply because I have observed good speech skills. I have my students fill out a request for services, I then go over it with them, and tell them everything that is available to them and suggest if they haven't included something in their request that they think would be useful to them, to add it to the form. That way I make sure I am serving their needs as they, the deaf student sees their needs, and not as I, as a hearing person sees their needs. That is the difference. And you have a good day, as well, jag.

 

[shel90]

I have never discounted the fact that CI provides benefit. What I disagree with is the attitude that the CI makes the deaf hearing simply through surgical intervention. I don't have a problem with services being provided under ADA laws--I advocate for just that professionally. And yes, had you been attending the college where I am employed, I would have advocated for you, as well.

I don't recommend services or communication methods basd on my observation. I institute the provision of services based on what my deaf students tell me they need. In fact, I just recently recommended that a student use a notetaker and an interpreter. He had requested only a notetaker because he did not know that he was entitled to both. He happens to be a CI user that communicates well orally in a situation where it is one on one, but was missing quite a lot of the discussion that goes on in a college classroom. What I don't do is meet with a student, and then make the judgement that we are not going to provide a terp, or any other service simply because I have observed good speech skills. I have my students fill out a request for services, I then go over it with them, and tell them everything that is available to them and suggest if they haven't included something in their request that they think would be useful to them, to add it to the form. That way I make sure I am serving their needs as they, the deaf student sees their needs, and not as I, as a hearing person sees their needs. That is the difference. And you have a good day, as well, jag.

I wonder if that makes your job easier cuz the population that u work with are adults and capable of making their own decisions and u dont have to deal with demanding parents? I was thinking of doing something like what u do if I lose my job cuz I dont think I want to continue with teaching due to the parents' unrealistic demands on their deaf/hoh children and not listening to my suggestions or discrediting my knowledge and education in this field in addition to other reasons. I love to teach but dealing with the parents is making my job seem more difficult these days.

 

[jillio]

No Shel it's a good hope. I honestly wouldn't have wanted to be a profoundly deaf person having to rely on HA's and lip reading. UGH. while some kids can adapt just knowing my expericenc and I was mod/severe and moving down toward profound, UGH.

But I do agree. And the place to begin is to educate the educators and the implant staffs about the problems, the data is out there and actually the ST we had contact with during my youngest childs time in that school gave me the impression that HA's would give the child the access etc etc, I actually said one when the TDHI was there that no, they will amplyfy things but they aren't all you think they are. She looked at the TDHI and that woman said she's right. Being college educated doesn't mean much when you've never actually experienced something like deafness.

I shall spare everyone my comments on IQ tests and Physc evaluations.

I am in total agreement with your starting point, and in fact, shel and I both have said the very same thing. The problems still exist and they are not being addressed. Are you aware that the standardized IQ tests have been modified for use with deaf students? And there are now psychologists who ahve special training inworking with the deaf population. This is a big step forward, as it cuts down on misdiagnosis and underestimated capabilities.
this is one area that awareness of Deaf Culture has resulted in much improvement.

 

[jillio]

I wonder if that makes your job easier cuz the population that u work with are adults and capable of making their own decisions and u dont have to deal with demanding parents? I was thinking of doing something like what u do if I lose my job cuz I dont think I want to continue with teaching due to the parents' unrealistic demands on their deaf/hoh children and not listening to my suggestions or discrediting my knowledge and education in this field in addition to other reasons. I love to teach but dealing with the parents is making my job seem more difficult these days.

Yes, I do think it makes my job a bit easier, because my students can tell me what they need from their point of view without a parent stepping in and saying "oh, no, my child doesn't need a sign terp because they are oral." You would be amazed at the number ofkids that went through mainstream ed as oral students that actually use a sign terp at the college level. Once they are exposed to it, they realize what a benefit it can be in the classroom. You already know from personal experience, that many people raised orally embrace sign once they have reached the age that they can make their own decision based on what they themselves think they need and not on what some well meaning hearie has told them they need. I admire your stamina for dealing with the parents who simply refuse to understand. I don't believe for one minute that they are intentionally harming or neglecting their childre, but I do know that many are simply unable to step out of their hearing perspective long enough to see the issues from a deaf perspective.
they are making a sincere attempt to do what is best, but simply cannot understand that what you think is best from your side is not always best from the child's side.

 

[shel90]

Yes, I do think it makes my job a bit easier, because my students can tell me what they need from their point of view without a parent stepping in and saying "oh, no, my child doesn't need a sign terp because they are oral." You would be amazed at the number ofkids that went through mainstream ed as oral students that actually use a sign terp at the college level. Once they are exposed to it, they realize what a benefit it can be in the classroom. You already know from personal experience, that many people raised orally embrace sign once they have reached the age that they can make their own decision based on what they themselves think they need and not on what some well meaning hearie has told them they need. I admire your stamina for dealing with the parents who simply refuse to understand. I don't believe for one minute that they are intentionally harming or neglecting their childre, but I do know that many are simply unable to step out of their hearing perspective long enough to see the issues from a deaf perspective.
they are making a sincere attempt to do what is best, but simply cannot understand that what you think is best from your side is not always best from the child's side.

U know..after graduation, I had a hard time finding a job teaching deaf ed due to no availabilities so I applied for a position just like yours at Montgomery Community College cuz I had a great experience from the student support services at ASU. I didnt get the job due to having no experience at all.

 

[rockdrummer]

Shel... Jillio... Shel.... Jillio... Shel.. Jillio... wooo hooo!!!!

 

[shel90]

Shel... Jillio... Shel.... Jillio... Shel.. Jillio... wooo hooo!!!!

 

[jag]

I am in total agreement with your starting point, and in fact, shel and I both have said the very same thing. The problems still exist and they are not being addressed. Are you aware that the standardized IQ tests have been modified for use with deaf students? And there are now psychologists who ahve special training inworking with the deaf population. This is a big step forward, as it cuts down on misdiagnosis and underestimated capabilities.
this is one area that awareness of Deaf Culture has resulted in much improvement.

Of course I'm very much aware that IQ tests have been modified for the deaf/hoh in fact I'm the one that insisted the first time they did one of the idiot tests that if they really must they must use the one that was visual.

That was hmmm, at least 10 or so years ago. Having had contact with a dr. of phycology in the clinic my daughter goes to and having had her write a damm report twisting parental input I have absolutly no tolerance for that type of input. speech, writing any mode of communication is open to misinterpetations. Having someone tell me the 'age' of my daughters mind doesn't do much to develope the IEP. Having them tell me where she is in certain skills does. IQ's also give many (even deaf educators) a bias and make them believe that a child can't do something because of the number. So I am and always will be anit IQ.

 

[rockdrummer]

 

[jillio]

I saw it and there is a lot of theory in it. I agree with you if this was a complicated issue. Correct me if I am wrong but a child initiating conversation using speech doesn't seem that complicated to me. Either they have initiated it or they haven't. Perhaps I am just a simpleton and don't really comprehend the issue.

We've had this discussion before--of course you are not a simpleton! Children do things for many many different reason, and quite often it has nothing to do with their preference. And if a child is given the message, even subtly, that a parent is more approving of speech than sign, they will use speech. not based on preference, but to gain parental approval.
that is a simplified explanation, but I'm sure you can see the direction it heads.