CNN) – Conservative talk-show host Glenn Beck apologized Friday after appearing to mo

[TXgolfer]

Wirelessly posted

I prefer Engels over Marx.

At least Engels understood how class struggle worked. He should know... He was a factory owner.

Pa or Half Pint?

 

[darkdog]

aw dang. Well - if you would like to explore more in this related subject... you really need to start with Karl Marx. And no do not confuse Marxism as Communism. Do not confuse Marxism as "gimmi gimmi gimmi". Do not dismiss Karl Marx otherwise... we'd be the biggest hypocrite the world has ever seen.

Why not? Marxism so misses the mark on human nature that every time it is tried, it turns into the ugly monster we know as communism. In other words, Marxism never has and never will work as advertised as long as human beings are involved. It always leads to totalitarian hell. Attempts to implement Marxism have led to far more human misery and suffering than even fascism. We don't reflexively recoil from Marxism because of American propaganda- we despise it because of the evil it produces.

 

[kokonut]

Marxism -> :fruit:

 

[naisho]

Marxism as evil and :fruit: ?

So that means the chinese are evil and are fruits too. Anyone dare to say that in real life to them?

Boy are we totally biased here.
Might as well re-start the red scare and rampant Joseph McCarthyism just because, those pointless bashings.

China's dominant politics still incorporates Marxist principles. Zhedong used it to fuse the movement in PRC grassroots, Xiaoping renovated Mao's ideology with the "四项基本原则" (4 main guidelines) to incorporate a broader spectrum which has now became China today.

And China fuels our economy.

 

[jillio]

Ah yes....a lack of personal accountability. Another cause of our downfall.

Actually, no. Personal accountability is not the issue. Societal accountability is the issue.

 

[jillio]

Why should society be responsible for "providing the means to achieve [success]"? I grew up "lower income," and it never occurred to me then or now that society should provide me a means to achieve success, and it never occurred to me that crime was an acceptable means for achieving success. In fact, to me, even as a young person, I thought turning to crime would be a sign of failure, not success.

From where do people get this idea that society should provide them the means to achieve success?

Research conflict theory. It will explain it all.

 

[jillio]

it doesn't work like that. that's why it's a very complex issue. Everything is tied together - social, economic, and political.

"oh he's rich and I'm poor. I've gotta steal this watch to look rich." - not that simple.

Thank you for your explanations, jiro. Seems there is a great deal of misunderstanding regarding the concept.

 

[jillio]

Actually it is......

No, it really isn't. Problems arise when one tries to simplfy something that is actually multi-layered and complicated.

 

[jillio]

I thought it was because of the fact that the very people who write and enforce laws are the first ones to break them. And the fact that damn near everything is now illegal. I don't what kind of social pressure you are talking about cause to me its just plain greed, stupidity and low self esteem to think that you need specific things to move up in status.

Nope. What you are referring to is more symbolic interactionism.

 

[jillio]

Yes of course - we all have different answers to same problem. But your kind of answer is what failed NYC and many cities for decades. The simplistic approach. The simplistic POV. "You steal, you go to jail." End of Discussion. Period.

NYC took a completely different approach with open mind and they brought in an expert, George L. Kelling, who is both a criminologist and sociologist (also a professor at my college and I may study under him for grad program next year). He approached the problem with solution that actually addressed the complex socioeconomic issues. After 5 years...... the result paid off. After 10 years, the crime rate dropped so low that NYC was actually the #1 safest city. Philadelphia Mayor asked NYC for advice and he listened. Now - Philadelphia has finally transformed itself as a promising growing city. That's why I visited Philly several times for past couple years because it is clean, safe, and beautiful. I avoided Philly like a plague for a long time because it was ghetto as hell. worse than old NYC. I've actually contemplated on living in Philly several months ago. nice apartments there are cheap. Pennsylvania tax is cheap. cost of living is cheap. and... Philly is gun-friendly

So you can go ahead and keep on preaching about "personal responsibility" and "common sense" but it's not gonna solve anything. George L. Kelling did it right. Ignoring or disregarding complex socioeconomic theories like Conflict Theory and social stratification when attempting to fix the decades-long problems and ignorantly labeling these theories as Marxism or "gimmi gimmig gimmi"....... well - good luck fixing a crime-infested neighborhood.

Exactly. NY began to see the problem as multi-layered and not responsive to a simplistic solution. That is why they are having success in crime rate reduction. Nor do I agree that most criminologists or sociologists don't have an explanation for drops in crime rates. Most will explain it quite well, and thoroughly, from a particular theoretical perspective.

 

[jillio]

Marxism as evil and :fruit: ?

So that means the chinese are evil and are fruits too. Anyone dare to say that in real life to them?

Boy are we totally biased here.
Might as well re-start the red scare and rampant Joseph McCarthyism just because, those pointless bashings.

China's dominant politics still incorporates Marxist principles. Zhedong used it to fuse the movement in PRC grassroots, Xiaoping renovated Mao's ideology with the "四项基本原则" (4 main guidelines) to incorporate a broader spectrum which has now became China today.

And China fuels our economy.

The obvious nature of ethnocentricsm.

 

[kokonut]

:fruit:

A reminder to ya'll - power kills, absolute power kills absolutely = Marxism. Should be treated like the plague.

 

[TXgolfer]

No, it really isn't. Problems arise when one tries to simplfy something that is actually multi-layered and complicated.

Never said crime was a simple problem.....conflict theory is THAT simple.

 

[TXgolfer]

Exactly. NY began to see the problem as multi-layered and not responsive to a simplistic solution. That is why they are having success in crime rate reduction. Nor do I agree that most criminologists or sociologists don't have an explanation for drops in crime rates. Most will explain it quite well, and thoroughly, from a particular theoretical perspective.

Too bad they disagree

 

[Jiro]

Never said crime was a simple problem.....conflict theory is THAT simple.

if you actually research on it (other than google search), you will see that it's actually that complex because it breaks off into many branches. Conflict Theory was long ignored back in 50's but the American sociologists started to accept it and studied on it. Therein.... the policymakers took heed of Conflict Theory as the community grows. It's still on-going.

 

[Jiro]

Too bad they disagree

who is they?

 

[Jiro]

:fruit:

A reminder to ya'll - power kills, absolute power kills absolutely = Marxism. Should be treated like the plague.

nobody said America should go toward to Marxism. You are the perfect example of my post #134

simple question for you (too bad you won't answer it) - what's the prime difference between Marxism and Communism?

 

[darkdog]

Marxism as evil and :fruit: ?

So that means the chinese are evil and are fruits too. Anyone dare to say that in real life to them?

I never said the citizens of China or the Soviet Union or North Korea or any of the unfortunate people who have had to live under Marxist regimes are evil. The results of Marxism when put into practice are evil. It leads to evil regimes. Look at China. How many tens of millions of people were murdered for Mao's revolution? No one knows exactly, but it's pretty sad when the error bars alone are greater than the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Also, consider the gulags, the human rights abuses, and the extreme poverty that resulted. If that's not evil, then we might as well take our scissors and cut "evil" out of the dictionary.

Boy are we totally biased here.

History itself is totally biased against utopian philosophies that lead to incalculable human suffering.

Might as well re-start the red scare and rampant Joseph McCarthyism just because, those pointless bashings.

Practicing for the hyperbole olympics, are we? When have I falsely accused anyone of being a communist and dragged them in front of congressional committees? When have I advocated such? I'm talking about real events that have actually happened. It's about as relevant to discuss the evils of Marxism as it is to discuss the evils of fascism. What's pointless is to be an apologist for either.

China's dominant politics still incorporates Marxist principles. Zhedong used it to fuse the movement in PRC grassroots, Xiaoping renovated Mao's ideology with the "四项基本原则" (4 main guidelines) to incorporate a broader spectrum which has now became China today.

And China fuels our economy.

China only enjoys prosperity inasmuch as the government allow markets to operate freely. The further away they move from Marxism, the better off they are. To the extent they're successful, it's despite Marxism, not because of it.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

I thought a Marxist society is one with no government whatsoever... everyone governs themselves.

 

[Jiro]

I never said the citizens of China or the Soviet Union or North Korea or any of the unfortunate people who have had to live under Marxist regimes are evil. The results of Marxism when put into practice are evil. It leads to evil regimes. Look at China. How many tens of millions of people were murdered for Mao's revolution? No one knows exactly, but it's pretty sad when the error bars alone are greater than the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Also, consider the gulags, the human rights abuses, and the extreme poverty that resulted. If that's not evil, then we might as well take our scissors and cut "evil" out of the dictionary.


History itself is totally biased against utopian philosophies that lead to incalculable human suffering.


Practicing for the hyperbole olympics, are we? When have I falsely accused anyone of being a communist and dragged them in front of congressional committees? When have I advocated such? I'm talking about real events that have actually happened. It's about as relevant to discuss the evils of Marxism as it is to discuss the evils of fascism. What's pointless is to be an apologist for either.


China only enjoys prosperity inasmuch as the government allow markets to operate freely. The further away they move from Marxism, the better off they are. To the extent they're successful, it's despite Marxism, not because of it.

It's the corrupted few, not Marxism. Even here.