A woman's right?

Were you ever presurized into having an abortion?

  • Yes I was presurized by my boyfriend.

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • Yes I was presurized by my family.

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • Yes, I was presurized by friends, the family planning or other sources.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I felt presurized into aborting but I went ahead and had the baby.

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • When I had my unplanned pregnancy everyone supported my choice to have the baby.

    Votes: 7 43.8%
  • No, but I wasnt that keen on keeping my baby but felt I had to as everyone I know is Pro life.

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • I have had an abortion but it was entirely my own choice.

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16
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To be honest, when I was younger I was very pro-choice (never pro-abortion, I would have NEVER done it myself) because I believed that a woman had the right to decide what to do with her body, the worry about back alley abortions, and rape (because this was before the morning after pill). But then I got pregnant, and very nearly lost my baby at around 9 weeks. I was bleeding and in the emergency room. Everyone was so casual about it. As if my, long tried for and cherished, "fetus" didn't matter. They even had a posted memo in the room about how to "deal" with a woman who had a miscarriage. I realized that these doctors did NOT view my baby as more than a parasite or lump of tissue...lovely.
Later that evening we got an ultrasound to make sure the "fetus was still viable" and we got to see my daughter's little heart beating. That is when my views changed. She was alive, and a tiny human inside me.
I think because abortions are done so early many women never really accept that they have a baby growing inside them. There are no tangible signs, they can detach and not think about it. What would happen if they saw an ultrasound or heard the heartbeat? Would they reconsider? Would it make things more real? Just a thought.

In some ways, I agree with you. For myself, I couldn't and wouldn't get an abortion and if I do, I know I would have a hard time with myself.

However, I know that I have NO right to impose my feelings, views, or beliefs on anyone else. I would NEVER call anyone a murderer because they had an abortion. It just wouldn't do anyone any good anyway.
 
Interesting posts here...

... Okay. A pro choicer's comment got me to think...

< provoking thought >

Okay - Firstly, usually, a pro-choicer did not address, the life in the womb is a child or not. A pro-choicer simply brushed that aside and then tried to show the advantages of killing unborn babies cos they are weaklings in the womb. Secondly, whenever or not a baby is "unwanted" is pretty irrelenet (sp). Just because a human being is not wanted does not mean that human being has no value or necessarily should be killed. Plus, there are huge numbers of families who are willing to adopt "unwanted" babies, so they are 'wanted' - not "unwanted". I do not believe in wanted-ness vs unwanted-ness, anyway.

Well, if I follow to this pro-choicer's logic that unwanted babies are more likely to commit crimes in the future, then you are seeking to justify killing them (due to the possibility of "unwanted" ones commiting a crime). Is that correct, eh?

Well, what are your arguement in favor of killing people based upon what they might do, but not what the have done? But, sure, a pro-choicer is correct that abortion can reduce the number of unwanted children. Well, keep that mind, murder also reduces the number of unwanted people too! Poisoning the water supply, dropping a nuclear bomb on a city, spraying a poisonous gas around places, and etc etc. So, if the reduction of unwanted people is the goal, then I guess I suppose that opens us up for all kinds of genocide type possibilities. Since, various researches said that criminal involvement is increased with unwanted children... so, does that various researches tell us about the character of people who would carelessly screw around, get pregnant, and have no qaulmys about killing a life in the womb?

What is kind of attitude and a lack of character that just produces criminals? Those who value human life and seek to protect the weak, and the unborn ones are far less likely to be involved in crime. But again, is the fact that unwanted babies are the reason they are more likely to be criminal, or is it because of the parents of the children would kill them who have a poor moral basis on whichever they raise a child?

Well, you see, the truth is people need to start being more responsible with their own actions, their behaviors, their own children, and for themselves... they need to stop the blame on everyone else! Seriously, if you truly want to reduce various crimes, then go and kill all crazy people, all gang members, all drug abusers, and kill them the another unnecessary people. I'm sure that would sovle a problem, anyway! On the other hand, if the support for killing is the reduction of various crimes, then why do pro-choicers stop at unborn babies? Unless... because those little unborn ones are not able to defend themselves that is so easy for them to be a target, isn't it? But what about the gang members and drug abusers would fight back against you? No? It is easy to kill the innocent and helpless only, isn't it?

Humph. Well, I 'speak' in a favor of, as my personal belief, adults behave responsibly and they face the consepuances of their actions. I 'speak' in a favor of society as a whole require this responsibility. With my aware, I 'speak' in a favor of statistics and reasoning is not be used to justify killing, and pronounce condamnation upon a people by accusing unborn babies for being parasitic, the source of problems, and unwanted. Seriously, I meant, what is the point?

If there is no value of the life for the weak and innocent, especially those ones who in the womb, then you lay the foundation for the future murderous "anarchy" when one (who rules regardless of a constitution [or laws]), who gain power to use the same rationale to justify killing others.

Therefore, many pro-choicers consider the unborn children are weaklings that is so easy to be targeted for the kill. That is how it works.

< /provoking thought >


EDIT: Again, this is my POV. I know this post is pretty simple and sound..
 
... Okay. A pro choicer's comment got me to think...

< provoking thought >

Okay - Firstly, usually, a pro-choicer did not address, the life in the womb is a child or not. A pro-choicer simply brushed that aside and then tried to show the advantages of killing unborn babies cos they are weaklings in the womb. Secondly, whenever or not a baby is "unwanted" is pretty irrelenet (sp). Just because a human being is not wanted does not mean that human being has no value or necessarily should be killed. Plus, there are huge numbers of families who are willing to adopt "unwanted" babies, so they are 'wanted' - not "unwanted". I do not believe in wanted-ness vs unwanted-ness, anyway.

Medical science and the law has already addressed the issue of whether a fetus is considered to be a child or not. That is what the point of viability determines. So, it has been addressed and determined for all legal and medical purposes. If all "unwanted" children were adopted, we would not have the millions of children caught in the system now waiting for homes that most likely will never be found. Especially when people are going out of the country to adopt rather than accept the children in this country that so desperately need homes. What do you propose to do with all this influx of children into an already overcrowded system where homes are not available for the children that need them now, much less the ones that will be added to it tomorrow?

Well, if I follow to this pro-choicer's logic that unwanted babies are more likely to commit crimes in the future, then you are seeking to justify killing them (due to the possibility of "unwanted" ones commiting a crime). Is that correct, eh?

No one said that unwanted babies are more likely to commit crimes. What was said that children of teen mothers are more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. That is fact that is supported with extensive data.
Well, what are your arguement in favor of killing people based upon what they might do, but not what the have done? But, sure, a pro-choicer is correct that abortion can reduce the number of unwanted children. Well, keep that mind, murder also reduces the number of unwanted people too!
Fallicious argument.
Poisoning the water supply, dropping a nuclear bomb on a city, spraying a poisonous gas around places, and etc etc. So, if the reduction of unwanted people is the goal, then I guess I suppose that opens us up for all kinds of genocide type possibilities. Since, various researches said that criminal involvement is increased with unwanted children... so, does that various researches tell us about the character of people who would carelessly screw around, get pregnant, and have no qaulmys about killing a life in the womb?

It tells us that they are responsible enoght to determine that attempting to raise a child when they are not capapble of doing so only creates a situation of harm for the child, and no child deserves to be brought into that situation.

What is kind of attitude and a lack of character that just produces criminals? Those who value human life and seek to protect the weak, and the unborn ones are far less likely to be involved in crime. But again, is the fact that unwanted babies are the reason they are more likely to be criminal, or is it because of the parents of the children would kill them who have a poor moral basis on whichever they raise a child?

You are misinterpreting the data and the claims. It is not lack of character that creates criminals for the most part. It is environmental circumstances, poverty, lack of parental involvement, undereducation, lack of opportunity, and children who are totally unprepared to take care of even themselves thinking they are ready to become parents.
Well, you see, the truth is people need to start being more responsible with their own actions, their behaviors, their own children, and for themselves... they need to stop the blame on everyone else! Seriously, if you truly want to reduce various crimes, then go and kill all crazy people, all gang members, all drug abusers, and kill them the another unnecessary people. I'm sure that would sovle a problem, anyway! On the other hand, if the support for killing is the reduction of various crimes, then why do pro-choicers stop at unborn babies? Unless... because those little unborn ones are not able to defend themselves that is so easy for them to be a target, isn't it? But what about the gang members and drug abusers would fight back against you? No? It is easy to kill the innocent and helpless only, isn't it?

Humph. Well, I 'speak' in a favor of, as my personal belief, adults behave responsibly and they face the consepuances of their actions. I 'speak' in a favor of society as a whole require this responsibility. With my aware, I 'speak' in a favor of statistics and reasoning is not be used to justify killing, and pronounce condamnation upon a people by accusing unborn babies for being parasitic, the source of problems, and unwanted. Seriously, I meant, what is the point?

If there is no value of the life for the weak and innocent, especially those ones who in the womb, then you lay the foundation for the future murderous "anarchy" when one (who rules regardless of a constitution [or laws]), who gain power to use the same rationale to justify killing others.

Therefore, many pro-choicers consider the unborn children are weaklings that is so easy to be targeted for the kill. That is how it works.

< /provoking thought >


EDIT: Again, this is my POV. I know this post is pretty simple and sound..

The decision of Roe v Wade, which legalized elective abortion, has nothing to do with "weaklings". It would be nice if all of society's ills could be solved as easily as 1-2-3. Unfortunately, it is far more complicated than that, and more people are contributing to the continuance of the problems than to the solution by refusing to see reality.
 
Later that evening we got an ultrasound to make sure the "fetus was still viable" and we got to see my daughter's little heart beating. That is when my views changed. She was alive, and a tiny human inside me.
.

It was because it was WANTED.

There is a difference you know......
 
It was because it was WANTED.

There is a difference you know......

Exactly. People keep assuming that everyone will feel the same as they do under the same circumstances. That is a fatal error. You cannot project your feelings onto anyone else. Chances are, they do not feel the same as you, and if they don't they are as entitled to their feelings as you are to yours.
 
No, Cheri, that is not my opinion. It is fact.

I think it's interesting that when someone else presents information, it is an opinion, and yet your views are automatically fact. :hmm:

The difference being, what I call it is what stands up in a court of law. Any other issues that are to be considered are of a personal nature, and as such, need to remain so.

Again, your argument is that currently, the law says one thing. Currently, the law says that Byrdie and I can only get married in two states, and that the federal government will not recognize it still. Does that make it right? The argument can not be solved by "the law says so", when the argument is over whether or not the law is correct.

Because they aren't just as guilty. The pro-lifers play on emotion. They attempt to evoke it. They use it as a way to manipulate logic. Pro-choice is not doing the same thing at all. And to think that they are is simply indication that you either fail to recognize, or refuse to recognize the fact that a legal argument, which abortion is, has no room for emotional appeal based on total lack of logic. If that is the criteria you wish to employ in your own decisions, so be it. You are perfectly free to do so. However, the Supreme Court has already ruled that it is not a valid criteria in the decision regarding the legality of abortion.

Evoking emotion is just as manipulative as repressing emotion. Pro-choice sites do the exact same thing with the type of language they use, what information they "selectively" include, and what they leave out. Have you ever heard of cognitive dissonance? You should look it up. Just because you don't think they're wrong doesn't make them less manipulative.

And I think I've said enough times now that I'm not arguing the legal side. I'll say it again, though, I don't think changing the laws will solve anything. I said I don't think late-term abortions should be allowed, and they mostly aren't. We're discussing the actual issue.

Also, I'd love if you could show where the court said that emotional factors weren't an issue for this topic. Wasn't that kind of the whole point of the decision? The law at that time said one thing, but "emotions" and circumstance led them to redefine the law.


Perhaps you don't know what a slippery slope argument is. If any side uses a slippery slope argument, it is those arguing against a woman's right to make medical decisions for herself. I have discussed the topic at hand extensively. It is you that keeps digressing, from legalized elelctive abortion, to partial birth (which is outlawed), to medically necessary 2nd trimester abortion, to male rights in the decision, and on and on. In the process, you pull a set of facts from one and attempt to apply it to another, thus continually confusing the topic.

You aren't using a slippery slope argument? You've stated many times that if we take away this choice, it could lead to taking away women's rights and losing our civil rights, and set a dangerous standard for legal decisions. You also have yet to address the fact that there are many choices that we already don't have the right to make, both on our own and with our doctors.

And I haven't been confusing the topic, we have been discussing different things. We had a conversation about male rights in the decision based on one comment that I made, then Byrdie and I started a conversation about late-term abortions, and the topic has continued to change. And I don't see where I have pulled a set of facts and tried to apply it to the wrong place. If you could point that out, I'd be sure to look it over. All the topics are related, so I'm not sure how that would be.


Tell me, lsfoster; in those images, are you certain of the reason that the late term abortion was performed? Of course you aren't. The fetus may very well have had a disorder that was so severe so as to be incompatible with life. The fetus may already have died in utero. The fact that you don't have all of the information that would allow you to determine exactly what you are looking at is just more evidence of the success these sites have in their manipulative tactics.

What difference does it make? The reason for why something happened does not change what happened. I brought up the images because Byrdie said he did not consider a viable fetus to be a baby. I thought that maybe seeing those images might change his mind. It would be the same if he looked up images of 25 week old fetuses, we just happened to be talking about partial birth abortion at the time.

I never said I knew why the abortion was performed. You are the one that has now attempted to "manipulate" the data to fit your opinion.

I've also already presented documented and sourced evidence that in all likelihood, those fetuses were aborted for "elective" reasons. Just because you are choosing to ignore any statistics that don't support your point doesn't mean that I didn't cover that issue.
 
I think it's interesting that when someone else presents information, it is an opinion, and yet your views are automatically fact. :hmm:
no - Jillio presented information that is exhaustively substantiated by qualified experts. See a "s" in experts? What dreama presented was some couple of so-called experts with personal agenda or a selective information from an expert that is not widely accepted by a scientific community. major difference. If you want to make a case at Supreme Court or Congressional Hearing... you do know that you need present your finding/conclusion/report that have a consensual agreements by experts, not 1 expert.

The reason why Supreme Court have agreed with pro-choices (legalized abortion) is because they had substantial amount of data, research, etc. that supported their argument.... other side didn't. It was bundled with religion, emotion, and teary pictures of fetus being vacuumed out.
 
no - Jillio presented information that is exhaustively substantiated by qualified experts. See a "s" in experts? What dreama presented was some couple of so-called experts with personal agenda or a selective information from an expert that is not widely accepted by a scientific community. major difference. If you want to make a case at Supreme Court or Congressional Hearing... you do know that you need present your finding/conclusion/report that have a consensual agreements by experts, not 1 expert.

The reason why Supreme Court have agreed with pro-choices (legalized abortion) is because they had substantial amount of data, research, etc. that supported their argument.... other side didn't. It was bundled with religion, emotion, and teary pictures of fetus being vacuumed out.

Actually, jillio made a comment about what she felt would or would not make a good movie, which is clearly an opinion, then declared it as fact.

But also, the Supreme Court decision was not really based on data or research. It was based on the judges' interpretation of the 14th amendment to the Constitution, and State laws, as well as their personal opinions. In fact, when they made statements about the "point of viability" they clearly stated that it was up to science to do that, and that they could not at that point define that point. So I don't think there was a lot of hard data presented at all. They're judgment was not based on religion (at least not all of them, I'm sure some of the dissenting judges did), but was definitely based on emotion, and showed that they did consider the fetus to be viable at a point in the pregnancy, and therefore protected by the same laws that protect the rest of us.
 
One thing for sure, abortion is heavily interpretation based. It really falls on mainly one question: When is the fetus considered "alive" ?

I'd like to ask everyone this question: Should we look at abortion in terms of the rights of the baby or in terms of the rights of the parents or the rights of the mother only?

What about in terms of which is more likely to produce better results in life down the line for everyone, including the baby?

Also, I noticed that some people are arguing against abortion but it seems to me that technically they don't have a problem with today's laws, because we don't allow partial birth abortion, so I am not sure if they actually want to change the laws or what? Please clarify me on this. Tell me EXACTLY what is the ideal law for you.
 
Actually, jillio made a comment about what she felt would or would not make a good movie, which is clearly an opinion, then declared it as fact.

That's correct and :ty:
 
I think it's interesting that when someone else presents information, it is an opinion, and yet your views are automatically fact. :hmm:

Perhaps it is because mine can be backed up with medical, scientific, and sociologically valid data. It isn't that my views are fact, it is that my views are based on fact rather than emotion and myth. Please see the post that provides such for the post to which you have chosen to reply. Attempting to discount such information through personal insult does nothing to add credibility to your case. If you have credible information that supports the view that teen aged pregnancy is not a huge problem for mother, child, and society as a whole, please do provide that.

What difference does it make? The reason for why something happened does not change what happened. I brought up the images because Byrdie said he did not consider a viable fetus to be a baby. I thought that maybe seeing those images might change his mind. It would be the same if he looked up images of 25 week old fetuses, we just happened to be talking about partial birth abortion at the time.

Byrdie is well informed regarding this issue. Nor has he ever claimed that a viable fetus is not a baby. You continue to cross the line between embryo and viability, as if you can automatically assume that an embryo at 12 weeks gestation is at the same developmental stage and capable of survival as is a viable fetus at 30 weeks gestation. The fact that you continue to confuse the two issues is indication of the emotional argument you are attempting to employ. Why is it that you insist on bringing up the topic of partial birth abortion? Partial birth abortion, which by the way, is a term coined by the anti-abortion crowd to add an emotional element to a medical procedure, and not a medical term, is an outlawed procedure. It is not performed at any stage of pregnancy, and was never performed for first trimester, elective abortion. In fact, it was only ever performed in the case of a medically necessary abortion determined necessary to either save a mother's life or in the case that a fetus was determined to be incompatible with life.
I never said I knew why the abortion was performed. You are the one that has now attempted to "manipulate" the data to fit your opinion.

I am not manipulating anything. I am pointing out the fact that you do not have all of the information necessary to use said data to support your claim.
I've also already presented documented and sourced evidence that in all likelihood, those fetuses were aborted for "elective" reasons. Just because you are choosing to ignore any statistics that don't support your point doesn't mean that I didn't cover that issue.

You have presented nothing of the kind, as you have no access to the medical records necessary to do so. Once again, you are simply making assumtption based on an emotional reaction, and it, in reality, has absolutely nothing to do with fact.
 
Actually, jillio made a comment about what she felt would or would not make a good movie, which is clearly an opinion, then declared it as fact.

But also, the Supreme Court decision was not really based on data or research. It was based on the judges' interpretation of the 14th amendment to the Constitution, and State laws, as well as their personal opinions. In fact, when they made statements about the "point of viability" they clearly stated that it was up to science to do that, and that they could not at that point define that point. So I don't think there was a lot of hard data presented at all. They're judgment was not based on religion (at least not all of them, I'm sure some of the dissenting judges did), but was definitely based on emotion, and showed that they did consider the fetus to be viable at a point in the pregnancy, and therefore protected by the same laws that protect the rest of us.


That's the problem. "I don't think". The Supreme Court has thought extensively about it, and the medical community has spent eons determining the point of viability as can be quantified scientifically. The Supreme Court deferred to the experts in medical science, understanding that they did not possess the expertise to determine the point of viability. They assessed the validity of said information, and accepted it as valid. There was plenty of hard data presented, and there are copies of the transcript of the hearings available if you would care to review them and determine such for yourself.

And you are completely wrong. The decision was not based on emotion, but on law and on medical evidence. You don't seem to be capable of understanding the difference between the two.

And, my remarks were in reference to the true effects of teenaged pregnancy on the mother, the child, and society as a whole, as opposed to the glorified, fictionalized accounts that were being presented as fact.
 
no - Jillio presented information that is exhaustively substantiated by qualified experts. See a "s" in experts? What dreama presented was some couple of so-called experts with personal agenda or a selective information from an expert that is not widely accepted by a scientific community. major difference. If you want to make a case at Supreme Court or Congressional Hearing... you do know that you need present your finding/conclusion/report that have a consensual agreements by experts, not 1 expert.

The reason why Supreme Court have agreed with pro-choices (legalized abortion) is because they had substantial amount of data, research, etc. that supported their argument.... other side didn't. It was bundled with religion, emotion, and teary pictures of fetus being vacuumed out.

Exactly. It would seem that, in this discussion, we have a few are incapable of determining the difference between fiction and fact.
 
One thing for sure, abortion is heavily interpretation based. It really falls on mainly one question: When is the fetus considered "alive" ?

I'd like to ask everyone this question: Should we look at abortion in terms of the rights of the baby or in terms of the rights of the parents or the rights of the mother only?

What about in terms of which is more likely to produce better results in life down the line for everyone, including the baby?

Also, I noticed that some people are arguing against abortion but it seems to me that technically they don't have a problem with today's laws, because we don't allow partial birth abortion, so I am not sure if they actually want to change the laws or what? Please clarify me on this. Tell me EXACTLY what is the ideal law for you.

Viability has been determined by medical science. Viability is the point at which the fetus has a likelihood of survival outside the womb. That does not mean that viability determines when the fetus becomes a live neonate. A fetus is a live neonate only after birth and taking its first independent breath. The law and medicine are both specific on this.

In terms of rights, the law does not grant rights to the potential for life. Rights are granted to independent, living individuals. The reasons for such are so glarlingly obvious that they do not even need to be discussed.

As far as determining what is the best decision for whom concerned, the law has also been very specific on this. The decision regarding what is best for anyone concerned is a decision that is left to the confidentiality of the medical relationship between the woman and her physician.
 
Exactly. It would seem that, in this discussion, we have a few are incapable of determining the difference between fiction and fact.

You and Jiro are not even following the posts/replies correctly, but lsfoster is. :)

Cheri said:
If it's a true story it means it did happened to someone. What happened to her could happen to anyone, that's the whole point of why movies are made that are true story.

Jillio said:
It's entertainment. It may be based on a true story, but you have no way of knowing what part of the movie was pure truth, and what part was made up to make the story more interesting so millions of people would watch it and the movie maker would make a big profit.

The facts of being an unwed, 15 year old preganant teen are hardly so pretty. Wouldn't make a very good movie at all. It is very disturbing watching.

Cheri said:
Well; that's your opinion, I think it's more an educational for teenagers to learn how difficult and exhausting a single motherhood can be.

Jillio said:
No, Cheri, that is not my opinion. It is fact.

lsfoster said:
I think it's interesting that when someone else presents information, it is an opinion, and yet your views are automatically fact.
 
You and Jiro are not even following the posts/replies correctly, but lsfoster is. :)

Sweetie, I am capable of following the post and replies quite nicely, thank you. Just because they make absolutely no sense, and I am able to easily refute them, does not mean that I am not able to follow them.

Do you have any information regarding teenaged pregnancy that can in any way validly refute the information I provided that is based on fact, rather than on a feel good movie?

And, my dear, I suggest that you not selectively pick and choose those posts that you think show the logic of your argument, because you are leaving out the ones that blow it out of the water.
 
You and Jiro are not even following the posts/replies correctly, but lsfoster is. :)

But Cheri...it is a fact that teenage pregnancy is not what many of the movies portray it to be. Many movies about true stories usually change some elements of the stories for entertainment purposes so as an audience, we really do not know which parts of the movies have been alternated. It is also a fact that teenange pregnancy contributes to all of the noted problems mentioned.
 
Sweetie, I am capable of following the post and replies quite nicely, thank you. Just because they make absolutely no sense, and I am able to easily refute them, does not mean that I am not able to follow them.

You aren't following, because you like to manipulate others to fit your own opinion by attempt to control another person's thoughts, feelings, and think you know what they're saying when you don't.

Do you have any information regarding teenaged pregnancy that can in any way validly refute the information I provided that is based on fact, rather than on a feel good movie?
I don't need to provide information, what would you know what the movie is all about when you haven't watched it? The movie show the struggles and hardships of a teen pregnancy and the matter of fact when teens face an unplanned pregnancy it can be hard. I think that's enough fact to proved my point. I'm not going to do something for you just to make you happy.
 
You aren't following, because you like to manipulate others to fit your own opinion by attempt to control another person's thoughts, feelings, and think you know what they're saying when you don't.


I don't need to provide information, what would you know what the movie is all about when you haven't watched it? The movie show the struggles and hardships of a teen pregnancy and the matter of fact when teens face an unplanned pregnancy it can be hard. I think that's enough fact to proved my point. I'm not going to do something for you just to make you happy.

Just because I can support what I say with hard data doesn't mean I am manipulating, Cheri. It means that I have the hard data to support what I say, and you are relying on a movie that was made for entertainment purposes.

That is the problem, Cheri. It is a movie. Try relying on fact for a change, instead of some feel good, fictionalized account meant to do nothing more than evoke a little emotion in a 2 hour span.
 
Just because I can support what I say with hard data doesn't mean I am manipulating, Cheri. It means that I have the hard data to support what I say, and you are relying on a movie that was made for entertainment purposes.

I'm not even talking about your "hard data" on post number 227, I'm talking about your respond on how the movie wouldn't be a good movie, when the movie almost shows everything you stated on post 227.

Again you judged something you haven't seen, it's like judging a book by it's cover. :roll:
 
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