A Cure

[rockdrummer]

Wirelessly posted

Except who is the asshole? I wouldn't know; both side refuse to give in, and demanding each others to trust each others.

For me, trust is something that is earned over time. Even if I know somebody personally it takes time. For the internet and people I don't know personally, it takes even more time. And there are other factors that I consider as well. For example; If I personally feel someone has a hidden agenda or is bias for one reason or another. Personally I don't see a problem with asking for or providing sources. It should not be a big deal and I would be wary of someone that makes claims but can't or won't back them up with sources or qualifies them as "opinions" . I always provide sources or if don't then I qualify the info by stating it is my opinion or that it's based on my personal experience.

 

[rockdrummer]

Souggy, unrelated to this discussion, but is that you in the picture?

 

[Tousi]

Is that sarcasm I detect?

no, take it at face value; no ulterior motives......it was just a stab in the dark, turns out it is not him. Everybody miss my "unrelated to the discussion...."?

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

 

[deafskeptic]

The bolded is even more true when you factor in hearing people who aren't able to speak for a myriad of reasons, so they sign.

Yeah. I knew a hearing woman who worked at Dorm B at MSSD who didn't speak much because she had some kind of condition that kept her from using her voice years ago.

 

[faire_jour]

Wirelessly posted

This thread should now be titled "Which is better, ASL or Oral?"


I am fluent in ESL, ASL, and oral communication.

Which is best for me?

Depends. On many things.

In the workforce, which is 99.9% hearing, oral communication works best for me. Why? 'Cuz that is the language being used by 99.9% of hearing people (Duh!)

When I am with old-school deaf people, ESL is best since that is what they are used to.

When I am with deaf people my age and younger, ASL works best.


Now, if you ask me which one I like best, there is no 'best'. Different languages apply to different environments.

However, what I WISH is, when I was in grade school, having an ASL interpreter would have helped me get through life better.

Of course, FJ is going to ask me why.

To all of you hearing people with deaf children who still don't get it:

Deaf means "cannot hear like a normal person". You can slap on hearing aids, CI's, and everything else that is presumed to be a "cure", but your child DOES NOT hear what everyone is supposed to hear.

Your child is depending on VISUAL clues to communicate. Lipreading is unbelievably hard and draining on your child. You have no clue as to how much effort it is to pay attention to everything someone says by concentrating on someones upper torso, face, and lips nonstop. My family thought I was a whack-job since I was always nervous, tired, and confused. They did not understand what the hell I was going through (and probably did not give a shit either). I still get migraine headaches after meetings & discussions with hearing people.

ASL (or any kind of sign language) makes a HUGE difference in a deaf child's ability to understand what the hell you are saying. You can teach your child to lipread and send him/her to speech therapy, yes, however, using sign language is still the most important way to get communication started.

Of course, there are some hearing 'specialists' out there that preach differently. My parents were told that I will become retarded if I learned sign language.

For me, ASL eliminates most humiliating misunderstandings, especially when discussing serious, detailed topics.

My opinion, but when it comes to sign language, late-deafened people are much more difficult to teach, and are less inclined to learn the language.

i wasn't going to ask why at all. I chose asl for my daughter for all those reasons. Right now she is learning spoken language but asl will always be part of her life as long as i am making the decisions. When she gets older, she can decide and i will support her either way.

where the disagreement lies is that i support as choices, not just the people who decided the same as me. I believe deaf people can be successful using many different approaches.

 

[Speedy Hawk]

After reading all that stats of Deaf/hearing loss etc in USA and how many use ASL.

In England there are at least 100,000 adult Deaf BSL users, because there was health survey and only random people are picked so there must be more than 100,000 (other BSL users didn't get picked) and kids BSL users are not included so number will be even more higher. That is not counting Scotland, Wales and Northen Island.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Yeah. I knew a hearing woman who worked at Dorm B at MSSD who didn't speak much because she had some kind of condition that kept her from using her voice years ago.

Think stroke survivors. You could also throw in people with ALS or CP, but a lot of people would also rely on communication devises as well. It would depend on motor skills and the ability of the hands to be agile enough to sign, but I think ASL (or sign in general) is being used a lot more than we think.

 

[deafskeptic]

Think stroke survivors. You could also throw in people with ALS or CP, but a lot of people would also rely on communication devises as well. It would depend on motor skills and the ability of the hands to be agile enough to sign, but I think ASL (or sign in general) is being used a lot more than we think.

That too. Thanks for bringing it up. Deaf with CP seem to be quite common in the Deaf community. Let's not forget autistic folks as well as many of them seem to be unable to speak.

The hearing woman that I mentioned earlier apparently had something that affected her vocal chords but I forget what affected her chords.

 

[deafskeptic]

After reading all that stats of Deaf/hearing loss etc in USA and how many use ASL.

In England there are at least 100,000 adult Deaf BSL users, because there was health survey and only random people are picked so there must be more than 100,000 (other BSL users didn't get picked) and kids BSL users are not included so number will be even more higher. That is not counting Scotland, Wales and Northen Island.

Hmm.. that's of interest.

 

[GrendelQ]

I read that PFH is coming in with accurate figures, but for the sake of discussion, looking at those #s that are commonly available (from Gallaudet):

~ 1 Million deaf in the US
~ 8 million HOH (as defined by SIPP/USCensus: have some difficulty hearing conversation even with hearing aids)
~500K - 1 million ASL users (Gallaudet has significant notes about the lack of / need for better sources for quantifying, but puts out this estimate: 360,000 to 517,000)

So, I'm reading that we have (as a high estimate) something like 1 in 9 US deaf using ASL.

But, while I understand that many here want to limit that population of potential ASL users (or those you would think might benefit from ASL but are non-users), I would think that ANYONE who doesn't access conversation in the same way that a typically hearing person (even those who can hear spoken language when aided, those who are late-deafened, those with age-related deafness) should be included.

It's not an insult to the language or the culture to say that this is a small number of the deaf community who use ASL. It's a call to action. There's a reason that 8 of every 9 deaf people are not using ASL. Or 39 of every 40 with hearing loss. Whichever way you choose to limit it, ASL users are a tiny minority of deaf.

Again, we -- who are proponents of ASL -- need to be asking ourselves 'why are deaf people overwhelmingly choosing not to use the language?' [You can say that parents are forcing spoken English on kids, but 1. many here have pointed out that pre-lingually deaf children are a drop in the deaf bucket and 2. ASL use for both hearing and deaf babies/toddlers is high -- anecdotally, I think we're seeing that the ASL drop-out rate is peaking at school age. It's a filtered group, but seems to me that every parent of a deaf child on this forum has started with ASL, and I see a high rate of early ASL adoption among those on the pediatric CI forums (I don't have data on this, would love to see it, too, if you are wondering.) LoveBlue was realistically honest: laziness is one reason, but there's more to it than that -- why is it such an effort for someone with such an incentive to learn ASL (progressive hearing loss) to do it? Many others here are deaf, are for ASL, and yet are not comfortable using/expanding their ASL, even if they want to -- why?

If we can find out the causes of this defection and identify the obstacles, we may be able to turn the tide by taking specific action.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

That too. Thanks for bringing it up. Deaf with CP seem to be quite common in the Deaf community. Let's not forget autistic folks as well as many of them seem to be unable to speak.

The hearing woman that I mentioned earlier apparently had something that affected her vocal chords but I forget what affected her chords.

There's a myriad of examples we could apply to this. Cancer is another possible issue that could affect one's ability to speak. Smokers are prone to oral cancers that could necessitate the removal of the vocal cords or the tongue; parts of the jaw. Any of the above would affect one's ability to speak.

The point being, sign is universal. I find it ironic that it's OK for a hearing person to learn and use ASL, but deaf individuals are often forced to go the oral only route and often aren't exposed to ASL until later in life.

 

[deafgal001]

I think it is the same reason why some older people don't learn English/Spanish. I mean they can learn it, but they already have other responsibilies to worry about.

 

[GrendelQ]

I think it is the same reason why some older people don't learn English/Spanish. I mean they can learn it, but they already have other responsibilies to worry about.

Right, I agree, it's considered a low priority by some relative to X, Y, Z, that's definitely one. But really, communication should be at the top of our priorities. Once we figure out what all the specific obstacles are (is ASL instruction seen as too time consuming/expensive/not something that can be mastered in a short enough time/etc.), we can look at what can we do to make it attainable and to remedy that perception.

But I hope we aren't sweeping the issue of low adoption under the rug: everything is NOT just fine and not everyone already knows or has easy access to ASL. But they could if we take action ...

 

[faire_jour]

I read that PFH is coming in with accurate figures, but for the sake of discussion, looking at those #s that are commonly available (from Gallaudet):

~ 1 Million deaf in the US
~ 8 million HOH (as defined by SIPP/USCensus: have some difficulty hearing conversation even with hearing aids)
~500K - 1 million ASL users (Gallaudet has significant notes about the lack of / need for better sources for quantifying, but puts out this estimate: 360,000 to 517,000)

So, I'm reading that we have (as a high estimate) something like 1 in 9 US deaf using ASL.

But, while I understand that many here want to limit that population of potential ASL users (or those you would think might benefit from ASL but are non-users), I would think that ANYONE who doesn't access conversation in the same way that a typically hearing person (even those who can hear spoken language when aided, those who are late-deafened, those with age-related deafness) should be included.

It's not an insult to the language or the culture to say that this is a small number of the deaf community who use ASL. It's a call to action. There's a reason that 8 of every 9 deaf people are not using ASL. Or 39 of every 40 with hearing loss. Whichever way you choose to limit it, ASL users are a tiny minority of deaf.

Again, we -- who are proponents of ASL -- need to be asking ourselves 'why are deaf people overwhelmingly choosing not to use the language?' [You can say that parents are forcing spoken English on kids, but 1. many here have pointed out that pre-lingually deaf children are a drop in the deaf bucket and 2. ASL use for both hearing and deaf babies/toddlers is high -- anecdotally, I think we're seeing that the ASL drop-out rate is peaking at school age. It's a filtered group, but seems to me that every parent of a deaf child on this forum has started with ASL, and I see a high rate of early ASL adoption among those on the pediatric CI forums (I don't have data on this, would love to see it, too, if you are wondering.) LoveBlue was realistically honest: laziness is one reason, but there's more to it than that -- why is it such an effort for someone with such an incentive to learn ASL (progressive hearing loss) to do it? Many others here are deaf, are for ASL, and yet are not comfortable using/expanding their ASL, even if they want to -- why?

If we can find out the causes of this defection and identify the obstacles, we may be able to turn the tide by taking specific action.

I agree with you about so much of this!

In our area, I have heard that something like 85-90% of parents start signing upon discovery of hearing loss. But, most stop at at age 3 because of the transition to preschool. They must choose a voice-off ASL with minimal pull out speech therapy, or oral only. 80% choose the oral preschool, another small percentage choose to mainstream, which leaves the bi-bi school with an average of 2-3 new students a year. My question is: how does the bi-bi school become more attractive to parents? The parents were interested in signing, they learned some and used it, but then something happens....

 

[deafgal001]

Right, I agree, it's considered a low priority by some relative to X, Y, Z, that's definitely one. But really, communication should be at the top of our priorities. Once we figure out what all the specific obstacles are (is ASL instruction seen as too time consuming/expensive/not something that can be mastered in a short enough time/etc.), we can look at what can we do to make it attainable and to remedy that perception.

But I hope we aren't sweeping the issue of low adoption under the rug: everything is NOT just fine and not everyone already knows or has easy access to ASL. But they could if we take action ...

I know some parents want to hear people say get implant and let them communicate that way but that isn't going to solve every deaf child's problem.

I personally think teachers teach the some ASL in public school as part of their curriculum as they teach kids. Like if they are going to teach the class dinosaur, they teach the kids sign for dinosaur (think of blues clue.... the show have always taught kids alittle bit of signing athough the kids probably don't realize it because they rarely point it out that it is sign language) The teachers don't have to know ASL but it will help the kids adapt better to learn ASL when they get older. But that's just my opinion. Other than that, there's little we can do.

 

[rick48]

I do not have access to read the entire article but judging from the abstract, it appears there are no reliable figures for today.

Sign Language Studies
Volume 6, Number 3, Spring 2006
E-ISSN: 1533-6263 Print ISSN: 0302-1475

DOI: 10.1353/sls.2006.0019

Mitchell, Ross E.
Young, Travas A.
Bachleda, Bellamie.
Karchmer, Michael A.
How Many People Use ASL in the United States? Why Estimates Need Updating
Sign Language Studies - Volume 6, Number 3, Spring 2006, pp. 306-335

Gallaudet University Press



This article traces the sources of the estimates of the number of American Sign Language users in the United States. A variety of claims can be found in the literature and on the Internet, some of which have been shown to be unfounded but continue to be cited. In our search for the sources of the various (mis)understandings, we have found that all of the data-based estimates of the number of people who use ASL in the United States have their origin in a single study published in the early 1970s, which inquired about signing in general and not ASL use in particular. There has been neither subsequent research to update these estimates nor any specific study of ASL use. The article concludes with a call to action to rectify this problem.

 

[rick48]

Also, from the Galluadet Research Institute-Dawes House (go there for more details):
A Brief Summary of Estimates for the Size of the Deaf Population
in the USA Based on Available Federal Data and Published Research:

About 2 to 4 of every 1,000 people in the United States are "functionally deaf," though more than half became deaf relatively late in life; fewer than 1 out of every 1,000 people in the United States became deaf before 18 years of age.

However, if people with a severe hearing impairment are included with those who are deaf, then the number is 4 to 10 times higher. That is, anywhere from 9 to 22 out of every 1,000 people have a severe hearing impairment or are deaf. Again, at least half of these people reported their hearing loss after 64 years of age.

Finally, if everyone who has any kind of "trouble" with their hearing is included then anywhere from 37 to 140 out of every 1,000 people in the United States have some kind of hearing loss, with a large share being at least 65 years old.

 

[shel90]

Being deaf and having to have intensive speech therapy to articulate speech and to talk just so we can to conform to the convenience of a majority (often this was imposed on us, it was not a choice) doesn't end there. I speak well enough that few in the hearing world know that I am severely-deaf. I had become an expert at piecing together the puzzle of words, an expert at fooling people I could hear by reading more than just lips, but also facial expressions and body language and the surrounds. Yet, even after 47 years of being totally immersed in the hearing world, being the only deaf in a hearing family, married to a hearing man, all my 7 children are hearing, not having any exposure to sign language or the Deaf community until last year, I still struggle to articulate some words. It is still an huge effort to talk for any length of time. It tires me immensely and it strains my throat to the point of hurting. Why should we need to be oral when sign language can be made readily available to us? I resent the fact I was not given the knowledge or opportunity to learn sign language at an early age for it to be my first and primary language. I cannot understand why you think you have the right to advocate for oralism.

Oralism should be a part of a tool not as the only one. Screw that!

 

[BecLak]

What are statistics anyway?! What has more validity is what comes 'straight from the horse's mouth' - personal hand-on experiences from the real-life 'guinea-pigs'. (btw, have you noticed the common phrase terms refer to animals? We are not animals, we are human beings so what we say should have more validity than anything else)