Why do people become atheists?

[Audiofuzzy]

Yeah, God gave the religious leaders instruction how to sacrifice and what to eat and not to eat the part of body of the animals.

So how did these cavemen who ate mammoths knew what to kill, how to kill, what parts to eat and propably how to also prepare it???

And how about these "savages" in other parts of world, for example Africa, Asia where people did not have Bibles, yet they were doing quite well meat- food- wise???

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that Christians crusades who invaded for instance these poor African countries, cruelly enslaved their original occupants in the name of Jesus Christ- and is it not by their own account how these poeple hunted for food, prepared skins, strange medicines etc - proving that they knew without God from the Bible telling them about sacrifice, how to hunt and what to eat..??

And let's not forget what happened to North and South Indians- we all saw Pocahontas, The Mission, didn't we...
how did these "savages" knew so much abut nature and food preparation and all...??



Fuzzy

 

[Rose Immortal]

Do you mean they eat burnt meats? They burnt the animal on the altar.

I don't believe all offerings were burnt offerings, actually. I am pretty sure I read that at least some sacrifices were not burnt, but cooked and eaten.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Animal sacrifice to God, not vegetable & fruit because of blood etc. still make no sense to me. Its about "offer something valueable to show how much they thought of God". It´s nice of people who offer their thought to someone. I see no sense why God prefer animal to veg./fruits sacrifice. It hurts Cain´s feeling to know that God prefer Abel´s offering. God can´t accept that Cain has different offer as his brother Abel. I understood your post very well, hottiedeafboi but I see the different as you.


Sorry I can´t see the sense why God prefer Abel´s offering to Cain´s offering because of blood, sin etc... To me, it´s cruelty to offer animal to God like this. Now I see total different about God which I alway thought God is good and heart person...

http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27268

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I don't believe all offerings were burnt offerings, actually. I am pretty sure I read that at least some sacrifices were not burnt, but cooked and eaten.

I´m afraid yes, they burnt offerings on the altar. I have few links in my other thread then you can read it if you like to.

http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27268

 

[Maria]

Jesus Himself is a Lamb - a perfect sacrifice for all of us when He died on the Cross to pay for our sins. That's in the N.T.

But, for O.T., it's similiar with an animal sacrifice to God - same picture with Jesus Christ as a Lamb in N.T.

They are no longer usin' the animals to sacrifice, because Jesus Christ Himself was the Geniune Lamb for EVERYONE on the earth and He died for us. When He said " It's finished " then, it's finished - no more sacrificin' animals.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Liebling, it good for asking why and stuff? I tell you, before I received Christ in my life, everything is soo complicating. Till when I received Christ in my life, step by step, and begin to see and understand. See, the Holy Spirit enlighten u to see what God is saying which we as human couldn't understand. Its good to read how the old testament shown us, but we no longer under the law, bec Christ. the problem is focusing one thing and trying to figure one part and ignore the whole story and not going to get u anywhere and getting the wrong idea of God. God isn't cruel as some thought He is and wondering why this and why that. All the old testaments, which mean old agreement. At the last supper before Christ be crucified, with the disciples, The time of the wine, as Jesus said, this is my blood (its a wine, but portrait of His Blood), do this to remember me, this is a New Covenant. What He is saying all the sacrifices and the law no longer needed, bec all of that old agreement will be nail to the cross, which is already been nailed. Just focus one incident ignore the whole story will be a waste bec no point what is all about.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I´m afraid yes, they burnt offerings on the altar. I have few links in my other thread then you can read it if you like to.

http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=27268

I think you misread me a bit. What I was trying to say was that some offerings were burnt and some were eaten.

 

[Reba]

...Yes Cain know he doing wrong and tried to make his mistake good but God choose to not accept it and not forgive him. I thought we are being forgiven for our mistakes, don´t we? I thought God and Jesus would forgive everyone ?

God didn't refuse to forgive Cain. God even put His mark of protection on Cain. Cain had to suffer the consequences of his sin but that doesn't mean God would not forgive him.

 

[Reba]

Animal sacrifice to God, not vegetable & fruit because of blood etc. still make no sense to me.

The reason that God required a blood sacrifice was because that is the only price valuable enough to pay for all the sins of the world. The only blood pure enough was the blood of Jesus Christ. The blood of the animals was only a symbol of the person's faith in God's promise of the future fiinal perfect sacrifice.

Its about "offer something valueable to show how much they thought of God". It´s nice of people who offer their thought to someone.

No, the sacrifice to God was not about showing "how much they thought of God." It was about trusting and obeying God.

I see no sense why God prefer animal to veg./fruits sacrifice.

God commanded that only the sacrifice of blood can forgive sins. God commanded that the sacrifice be blood. Cain ignored and disobeyed God. God was disappointed with Cain because Cain decided to disobey.

It hurts Cain´s feeling to know that God prefer Abel´s offering.

That sounds like a psychological opinion. Psychology can't substitute for confronting sin as sin. Cain sinned against God when he disobeyed the offering requirement. Cain sinned against Abel, his parents, and God, when he killed his brother. There was no acceptable excuse for Cain's actions and attitude. It was all sin.

God can´t accept that Cain has different offer as his brother Abel.

It was not a "different" offering--it was the wrong offering. It was disobedience. Also, Cain had the wrong attitude about it. When God was disappointed with Cain's offering, Cain should have humbly repented and asked God to forgive him. Then, Cain should have prepared the correct offering of blood to prove his true repentance. But Cain did NOT do that. Cain became bitter and hateful, and began to think murder against his brother.

People don't become killers overnight. This shows that Cain must have had bad thoughts and attitude inside him even before he brought the wrong offering. God knew that. God tried to correct Cain but Cain refused.

... Now I see total different about God which I alway thought God is good and heart person...

God has the biggest love heart. God also is holy. Our small human minds can't fully understand God. We can't put God's heart and mind into a tiny psychology box. His love, grace, holiness and wisdom are much too large for mankind to analyze or understand. We try to compare His thoughts and ways to ours but it is impossible. It is like a bug trying to understand how humans think.

 

[Reba]

I don't believe all offerings were burnt offerings, actually. I am pretty sure I read that at least some sacrifices were not burnt, but cooked and eaten.

Maybe these verses will help:

Leviticus 10:12-20
12 And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy: 13 And ye shall eat it in the holy place, because it is thy due, and thy sons' due, of the sacrifices of the LORD made by fire: for so I am commanded. 14 And the wave breast and heave shoulder shall ye eat in a clean place; thou, and thy sons, and thy daughters with thee: for they be thy due, and thy sons' due, which are given out of the sacrifices of peace offerings of the children of Israel. 15 The heave shoulder and the wave breast shall they bring with the offerings made by fire of the fat, to wave it for a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be thine, and thy sons' with thee, by a statute for ever; as the LORD hath commanded. 16 And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin offering, and, behold, it was burnt: and he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron which were left alive, saying, 17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD? 18 Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded. 19 And Aaron said unto Moses, Behold, this day have they offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD; and such things have befallen me: and if I had eaten the sin offering to day, should it have been accepted in the sight of the LORD? 20 And when Moses heard that, he was content.

Ezekiel 42:13
Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.

Ezekiel 44:29
They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.


The offerings were eaten by the priests. After the food was ceremonially offered and "cooked", it was used by the priests and their families as part of their material support. That was one way the other tribes of Israel supported the priestly tribe.

See, God was not "wasteful".

 

[Reba]

...But there´re still sacrifice animals in islam countries... because they do what the bible says.

No, they don't do what the Bible says. Muslims follow the Koran/Qu'ran, not the Torah of Jews, not the Bible of Christians. Jesus Christ was THE final sacrifice. No other sacrifices were required or allowed after He died on the cross. That was it, period. If other religions continue to make sacrifices that is their religion, but that is NOT of God.

Huh? What do with obey and disobey when someone offer something valve to show you how thoughtful they are of you? I would be happy if anyone offer something no matter what because they show how much they thought of me.

God required a blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. It had nothing to do with showing thoughtfulness. The only real way to show our love for God is thru obedience.

Jesus said:

John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

The Bible also says:

I John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


Cain refused to obey God's commandments.

"sacrifice" is almost similar as "gift" because they show/offer something valuable.

No, they are not the same meaning. A "gift" is whatever the giver voluntarily chooses. A "sacrifice" is whatever is necessary to satisfy a requirement.

It´s nice of Cain and Abel offer something valuable to show God how much they thought of him no matter what but God prefer Abel´s offer to Cain´s offer. It make no sense to me...

You are confusing the concepts of a love offering and a commanded sacrificial offering.

Would you do the same what God did to Cain if someone show/offer something value to you? I can´t image that God do not accept Cain´s offering because of disobey... Huh?

I'm not God. Only God can require a sacrificial offering.

Do you accept disobedience from your children? Just curious.

I can understand how Cain feel because God do not treat him and Abel fair.

What is unfair about what God did? Do you think it is fair to Abel if he obeys and does the right thing but God praises Cain equally for disobeying? God was merciful because He didn't kill Cain after the murder. Should God be fair and execute Cain? Is that what you expect?

Sigh! Please use your common sense why Cain killed his brother Abel. Did you know that most siblings killed each other out of jealous because he/she feel being neglect by their parents´s love and feel that his/her parents prefer one of his/her siblings than him or her.

No, "most" siblings do NOT kill each other of of jealousy. The ones that do get arrested and punished because murder of siblings is NOT acceptable. There is no excuse for killing a sibling. That sounds like a psychologist for the defense lawyer's rationalizing in a murder trial.

I want my children to be treat FAIR, no matter what.

So you never punish your children when they disobey you? That doesn't seem fair to the obedient child.

What have Cain choose to disobey? I thought it´s nice of Cain to show something value to God. What do with that disobey?

God required a blood sacrifice. Cain disobeyed. That isn't "nice". Cain did not show love or respect for God. Cain ignored God, and did whatever he wanted.

If you tell your child to do something, and he doesn't do it, that is disobedience, right?

Sorry it make no sense to me. To me, yes Cain is jealous of Abel because God prefer Abel to Cain which it´s not right.

Jealousy is a sin.

It doesn't make sense to you because you don't have the mind of God within you.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

God expect too much from people´s offering because he prefer Abel´s offering to Cain´s offering.

God never requires more from a person than what they can do. He never expects "too much".

... God tests Abraham´s faith... he got him to kill his son... and more .. .etc... I would not test anyone for their faith but trust their faith.

Abraham did NOT kill his son. Please read that chapter again.

Sorry, I can´t see the sense why anyone worship the bible because of God´s law/word.

I don't worship the Bible; I worship God, the Author of the Bible. I read His Bible because I want to know more about Him.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

That is correct, Reba. I forgot about liebling from germany, I think she may have a hard time understand english.

 

[Maria]

That is correct, Reba. I forgot about liebling from germany, I think she may have a hard time understand english.

Or her point of view/perspective is different than ours... or it could be that she don't read the bible for herself to get to know God to understand Him better in His Light. She choses to rely on the links from the websites. Well, that's her choice.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I don't worship the Bible; I worship God, the Author of the Bible. I read His Bible because I want to know more about Him.

God is not the author of the Bible- God is the author of the Ten Commandemnts (if THAT'S real) given to Moses on the Mount... Synai ??

Bible has many authors - in the beginning it was probably mostly verbal recollections from many people, finally some day gathered together in written form.. I can only guess how many stories got twisted and miscontrued on the way..

read here:

""The Quran came from Mohammed. The Book of Mormon came from Joseph Smith. But the Bible is unique among the many sacred books in the world. One person did not write it. Rather, the Old and New Testaments were written by 40 different authors, located in Asia, Africa and Europe, over a 1600-year time span."

http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html

Fuzzy

 

[Dennis S.]

""The Quran came from Mohammed. The Book of Mormon came from Joseph Smith. But the Bible is unique among the many sacred books in the world. One person did not write it. Rather, the Old and New Testaments were written by 40 different authors, located in Asia, Africa and Europe, over a 1600-year time span."

http://www.everystudent.com/features/bible.html

Fuzzy

It's actually more accurate to state that the authors were from around the Mediterranean Sea, instead of evoking images that the authors were from Germany, or China, or Nigeria (the "Asia, Africa and Europe" quote) So, quite a limited geographical area, those books were written in.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

God didn't refuse to forgive Cain. God even put His mark of protection on Cain. Cain had to suffer the consequences of his sin but that doesn't mean God would not forgive him.

Okay, it's my mistake to say that God do not forgive Cain. Yes God forgive Cain. But.... it's Cain, God should punish, not get one of Cain's sister to be Cain's wife and go away with him. ?

Cain made the mistake of comparing. In his eyes, Abel was not contributing enough to the family. Cain worked hard in the fields while Abel wandered the hills. His comparison became resentment and eventually became a firm belief that his little brother was lazy.

The final breaking point came when Cain and Abel brought offerings to God. Their parents must have taught them nonritualistic forms of sacrifice. Since God had not given any commands concerning this, they were free to offer whatever they chose. Sacrifice was acknowledgment of God as sovereign and creator. It was an act of honouring him.

“Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground.” (Genesis 4:3) Compare this with Abel. “Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat portions.” Abel brought his best. Cain just brought whatever he could lay his hands on. He thought anything would do for the LORD of all the earth. It wasn't that he didn't care or didn't try. If he didn't care he wouldn't have brought anything. He just didn't think it was very important.

But how could Cain ignore one of his parents' greatest teachings? The only answer is that he thought something else was more important. Cain was brought up to be the helper Eve could not be. This marked him indelibly. Farming was what he did best. It was his job, and he took it seriously, perhaps too seriously. Anything that interfered with or didn't contribute to his job he probably considered unimportant, or at least wrong. Cain did honour God, but not with his best. His best was reserved for his family or for himself.3

Abel, on the other hand, honoured God because his parents had taught him to. He probably knew he wasn't as great a provider as his brother, but whatever he could do, he did to the best of his ability. He also wasn't attached to his work like Cain. He didn't hold to his sheep as Cain did to his crops.

Abel honoured God, and God honoured him. Cain did not honour God and found himself left out (Genesis 4:4-5). All of a sudden this became very important to Cain. He had been outdone by his little brother. His work was not as valued as he had thought. He was shocked and angry.

Most people today (and sad to say many Christians) have not only been fooled into the wrong kinds of work, but also into believing that their work is important, valuable and necessary. Question the value of anyone's work and many will grow defensive if not angry. This is not to say that work is bad. God created Adam to work in Eden. Work is good, but certain types of work and the values attached to them are wrong.

A simple example can be seen in the need for clothing and transportation. Both are necessities, but a new fashion every week, or a new car model every year is a complete waste of time, energy, materials and labour. Cain's work was a necessity, but he attached so much value to his work that he took it personally when his sacrifice was rejected.

And further read in this link...
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/bibleissues/cain.htm

Cain tried his best what he can. I can see that he feel being failure and rejected...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The reason that God required a blood sacrifice was because that is the only price valuable enough to pay for all the sins of the world. The only blood pure enough was the blood of Jesus Christ. The blood of the animals was only a symbol of the person's faith in God's promise of the future fiinal perfect sacrifice.

To me, animal sacrifice is a cruelty. Okay, I respect your opinion.

That sounds like a psychological opinion.

Yes I consider psychological because it make sense to me.

It was not a "different" offering--it was the wrong offering. It was disobedience. Also, Cain had the wrong attitude about it. When God was disappointed with Cain's offering, Cain should have humbly repented and asked God to forgive him. Then, Cain should have prepared the correct offering of blood to prove his true repentance. But Cain did NOT do that. Cain became bitter and hateful, and began to think murder against his brother

People don't become killers overnight. This shows that Cain must have had bad thoughts and attitude inside him even before he brought the wrong offering. God knew that. God tried to correct Cain but Cain refused..

Check link, I just provide and response your last post.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I will be back for my further post.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

As I read by saying Cain woroked hard and Abel just wondering on the hills and being lazy. No he is not. He's tending the flocks. Being a shepheard isn't easy job at all. Bec he has to watch and protect from wild animals. If no animal sacrifice during the old testaments, then God can't do anything with them, bec sin expose, there is no remission. That's the key message. I love animals too, as I see how animals acitivist more worry about animal than people and feel bad about animals than people, if animals suffer is worse than people suffer. No it isn't. I never forget when my daughter, she still loves animals but give her the balance, it isn't wrong to love animals. When we watched the movie, can't remember what it called, when the boy and the dog was walking on the walking bridge, all of sudden, it snapped and both fell into the rapid, my daughters said oh no and she cried for a dog, not the boy and hoping the dog is ok. And I ask her what about the boy? Hope that too, but dog is more concerned. I told her, its good how u feel about animals, but u gonna have to becareful how to love animals and people as comaprison. People are more important than animals, not mean neglect them, meaning lives of the people is priority than animals. God made animals for a purpose. I love deer sooo much and I hate to hunt and I never like to hunt, bec I hate to watch myself kill them, but there are hunters, aren't they cruel, no. Bec that's for us something to eat. Some animals for clothing. Animals part of our neccessity God has provided. And also, God does not have favorites. Bec why God uses particular person, bec obedience and also based on a person who cry out for God to help the time of needs. All the thru the Bible how God uses different people. most scientist, read different kind of other religion books and as comparison as most found that Bibile is more accurate and fit the history than any other religion books and also Bible isn't just a book, its Living Book and inspiring than any other books. All thru the history there are all kinds of religions, who defeat all of them The God who I worship. U may ask, what about Babylon (now called islamic world) destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, read again, its bec jews living rebellion against God and have u noticed there are few God fearing in the midst of the capture and sent in prison and being a slaves. Suffer for a while but God been with them who refuse to worship other religions/idols. You may say that's just a story, the real truth is , those who been saying that know its the truth, but rather keep their pride and arrogance to make those who deeply worship the Living Lord looks bad. Not mean al those who saying Bible are myth or whatever u look at. But the truth, there is no other religion s compare as our Living God. Smile. God is good.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Im sorry that your parents or some people in your life have confused you about God and Jesus...

No, they do not confused me but I focus myself. My parents do not negative me about God and Jesus but didn´t teach me anything about them. I learn about God and Jesus at school and involved with JW and other beleifs children at school. I love to hear religion teacher´s bible story every Sunday. JW and other beliefs are not allow to attend there accord their parent´s wishes. (I didn´t know anything about scriptures but story like history... until I learn scriptures from JW friends I went school with.) I asked religion teacher about scriputures... He was surprised about my question and asked me how I know. I told him it´s JW... He was like ooohhh and explained me that scriputures is like God´s law... It look like he doesn´t bother to look at scriputure but enjoy to tell us bible story. That´s how I began to confuse more and more after learn different beliefs from people... After leave school and college, I met JW people... I study their bible for 1 year - they kept saying: "Look crimes, bad world, etc.... etc... It´s Satan who influence people into bad people etc... I heard often like this from beliefs.. but my feeling said to me that it couldn´t be possible. They can´t convince me. Interesting yes... but their bible seem not right for me but accept and listen them... After married, I was too busy to focus my new life to neglect God, bible stuff for 7 years until I expected a first child in 1992 and then start interest to learn about children/family education. I went to parental conference and learn new things about psychology there and began interest more and more because I feel they are right for me... The way of their talk is sense to me which Bibles doesn´t. It´s just my feeling for beleive psychology. Yes I depend on psychology more and more because I´m interesting. Yes I learn more Evolution from my hubby and then my children. God and Jesus are thought in my heart and still have bible story with me... I enjoy to read them and beleive bible story and try to study scriptures hard but it´s impossible... I want to try because I thought the bible come from God´s word until I learn a lot from this forum HERE last year.... I convince at last and then lost my faith to bible.

I dont know what you mean about "authors" of the Bible..but the words came from the Lord himself, that i truly believe.

No, the bible is not from God´s word but authors who wrote the bibles. I respect your belief but to me, not... I can´t prove either the bibles, the author wrote is correct or not because there´re many authors who wrote bibles in different way.

You dont believe that the red words spoken by the Lord in the Bible were for
real? If you dont, then i feel sad for you....I hope in my heart, you will find
the real truth as it is there in the Bible.

I respect your beleif but I see different. I will see myself when I die........