Why adults choose CI's for their children

[R2D2]

Hence why I always want parents to learn sign just in case. Few things make make me angry but when I see a deaf adult with no language skills and not even signs, I always feel angry. It makes me wonder if their parents cared at all about them.

Yes I find that heartbreaking too. And it must be pretty common too. When I was registering for a sign course I found one for deaf adults and got excited. But then the co-ordinator told me it was for those who had no communication skills and the aim was to teach them basic numeracy and communication

 

[R2D2]

Right! That is why I am so happy to see many of the parents here in AD who are willing to accept the fact that their child is still deaf regardless of how well the CIs work. All I just want the parents to watch out for any deaf-related issues while their children are growing up whether it is academically, being left out, feeling isolated, feeling that nobody takes them seriously cuz they are deaf, and many more.

I am sure nowadays people are more educated about deaf people in general and more accepting than my time when I was growing up. My biggest concern is just language delays in children who were born with normal congnitive abilities. I think there is too many children out there that arent recieving a full access to a language and end up struggling for the rest of their lives and then not being able to find good jobs to support themselves. I see too much of that out there.

Yep, I agree with everything you've said. We want more hearing parents to become educated about those deaf related problems because they are very common and a CI isn't necessarily going to make them disappear. This is why AD needs to be a welcoming place to hearing parents.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

shel90's postMy assumption is that those parents are not really interested in deafness to register here and those who are do register here. I can see that those parents are really in denial about their children's deaf needs. It is like anything that has to do with deafness or deaf culture, they just clam up. Pls dont ask me why cuz I cant speak for them. I just can speak from what I encounter.

shel90's post

No, we are not generalizing but it is good to get all the negative stuff out so parents of small deaf children can read our postive or negative experiences and I would hope they will keep them in mind if their child ever encounters the same experiences or tries to express their feelings of being left out. I expressed my feelings to my mom about the kids making fun of me, feeling left out, and other stuff and my mom brushed off as typical teenaged stuff. If so, then why did I develop a serious depression in my 20s that I needed therapy? I just want parents to be more sensitive and understand their children's deaf needs cuz we have unique needs that separate us from hearing children. That's all.

Right! That is why I am so happy to see many of the parents here in AD who are willing to accept the fact that their child is still deaf regardless of how well the CIs work. All I just want the parents to watch out for any deaf-related issues while their children are growing up whether it is academically, being left out, feeling isolated, feeling that nobody takes them seriously cuz they are deaf, and many more.

I am sure nowadays people are more educated about deaf people in general and more accepting than my time when I was growing up. My biggest concern is just language delays in children who were born with normal congnitive abilities. I think there is too many children out there that arent recieving a full access to a language and end up struggling for the rest of their lives and then not being able to find good jobs to support themselves. I see too much of that out there.

 

[cdaigle430]

I see now why deaf people consider themselves a race, I had to look up the dictionary's definition of "race" and it can be in fact interpreted that way. But please understand that because you consider yourselves a different race for the most part the rest of the world doesn't know this except for you and now myself, you assume everyone else on this planet already understands this. For the most part, the rest of this world sees you as handicapped not a race, society sees you as handicapped, not a race, and our laws sees you as handicapped and not a race and you are protected under the umbrella of handicapped laws not racial laws. When a parent has a child that is deaf, they want to make life better for them by doing everything within their power. By inserting CIs they are not in fact denying a childs race, but in fact giving the child every opportunity in life to succeed. Stop putting the parents down because they believe they are doing the right thing.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Accord your post that you tried to mix child education with CI surgery to convince us because we beleive to support child's choice/decision for CI. I tried to convince you that what you talk about is child education. I tried to tell you that CI surgery and child education should be separate because any surgeries are not relate to child education.

I use my form of discipline to develop my child into right path is a child education like what you said "go bedtime, foods, TV etc" but CI surgery? CI surgery, ear surgery etc doesn't belong to kind of emergencies (save risk life). I leave it to child's choice/decision... but with save risk life is a different story.

Originally Posted by Rockdrummer
A child is not capable of understanding the complexities involved with such a profound decision. Think about it. If you gave your child the choice to go to bed on time or stay up and watch cartoons all night which do you think the child would choose? If you gave a child a choice to either eat their vegtables or eat candy which do you think they would choose. If you gave a child a choice to go to school or go play on the playground all day, which do you think they would choose. My point is that a child is not capable of making a wise choice with such a profound decision.

I am lost. I was not comparing CI and education but talking about a childs ability to grasp and make an informed decision that is in their best interest.

See above

Originally Posted by Rockdrummer
Those comments don't make any sense to me. After all of the discussions and wars and debates on CI's you don't understand that if someone can benefit from an HA then they are NOT a candidate for a CI. I don't have any problem accepting your opinions but please educate yourself on the subject first. And if the criteria is different in Germany then I apologize for my assumption.

See? You take one side and doesn't bother to listen both sides and claim that my comments don't make sense to you... What is this? I only post facts because I see it myself, not you.

I am lost again. Where am I taking only one side. I am suggesting the if the HA's work, then use them and if they are working I don't think you are a candidate for a CI. I belive that is a good thing. I understand that communication is possible without a CI.. I never anywhere said the CI was the only way to communicate. Please, how do you get the impression I take only one side?

Because you said that my comments make no sense to you. I see from those that you take only one side. I have seen both sides.

What if they have profound loss? HA's will not help. Now it's up to the baby to decide? Or do you wait until the child is older? And if you wait, how long will you wait? At what age do you belive a child is old enough to make such a decision?

Answer to your question.

I know from my experiences to share with parents of deaf children in Germany. Most children know what CI is from 6 years old because they mixed their deaf children with HOH and CI children at kindergarten at early age than 6 years old until they familiar with HOH and CI children... It take most parents few years to fulfill their children's wish. I have seen it myself and like to be them. Most children have CI at age 7 and 8.

Originally Posted by Rockdrumemr
It's not about parents respecting their childs decision. It's about the child being capable of making a decision that is in their best interest. The child will always choose candy over vegtables.

Again, I am lost. I never said it was.

Yes you have.

It's parent's job to teach children what right or wrong... Any surgery like CI, ear, nose, etc has nothing do with teach children right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Rockdrumemr
The general comments that you have just made are what I am worried about. While you may be correct that SOME parents make the choice for those reasons I can assure you that from my personal experience no ALL parents do. Part of what angers me is when people keep generalizing on the reasons why parents have made the choice and paint them all to be negative and selfish reasons.

Please read Shel90's previous posts where I added to.

The parents like you, Cloggy and others registered Deaf forum... Right? It mean is you all know that your child is deaf and learn to accept where we come from and like to help your child's development, which is good. Most parents didn't do that like what you, Cloggy and hearing parents did here. They don't want to learn sign for their deaf children. That's what we talking about.

You can't expect positive from us all the time. You have to accept the "negatives" from us sometimes. I see no problem for that when you try to positive CI than HA because I am open mind and accept pros/cons. All what I see here is label us as "anti-CI" because we support child's choice.

I respect you what you beleive the best for your child. Nobody label you as bad parents.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I see now why deaf people consider themselves a race, I had to look up the dictionary's definition of "race" and it can be in fact interpreted that way. But please understand that because you consider yourselves a different race for the most part the rest of the world doesn't know this except for you and now myself, you assume everyone else on this planet already understands this. For the most part, the rest of this world sees you as handicapped not a race, society sees you as handicapped, not a race, and our laws sees you as handicapped and not a race and you are protected under the umbrella of handicapped laws not racial laws. When a parent has a child that is deaf, they want to make life better for them by doing everything within their power. By inserting CIs they are not in fact denying a childs race, but in fact giving the child every opportunity in life to succeed. Stop putting the parents down because they believe they are doing the right thing.

your comment here make no sense to me.

 

[Cheri]

It's not about parents respecting their childs decision. It's about the child being capable of making a decision that is in their best interest. The child will always choose candy over vegtables.

You don't compare food over surgery, It's about respecting their body, respecting who they are, if the child was born deaf, leave it that way, why fixing a child is a must? for better future? for better education? for better hearing? a parent must know what's best for their child?, CI has to be the number one choice? I don't see parents bringing up their deaf child first to see the income on how they do in education, in their peers, communication. CI has to play the biggest role first before even trying to see how far your child will do as being deaf. I know some parents have done their search, but just remember not every deaf individuals are similar. Each person is different just like hearing people, no one is alike, or the same as another person.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

That has never been done. Where does this come from...??

Rockdrumemr compared foods, bedtimes, etc with surgery in his previous posts.

Check my response post to Rockdrummer.

Any surgery like CI, ear, nose, etc has nothing do with teach children right or wrong.

What I teach my children into good path is foods, bedtimes, etc. relate to child education.

Why would CI-surgery for my daughter NOT be a good path..??

Are you telling me that 1 is wrong and 1 is right??
Are you telling me that a deaf life is right, a hearing life is wrong??

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You don't compare food over surgery, It's about respecting their body, respecting who they are, if the child was born deaf, leave it that way, why fixing a child is a must? for better future? for better education? for better hearing? a parent must know what's best for their child?, CI has to be the number one choice? I don't see parents bringing up their deaf child first to see the income on how they do in education, in their peers, communication. CI has to play the biggest role first before even trying to see how far your child will do as being deaf. I know some parents have done their search, but just remember not every deaf individuals are similar. Each person is different just like hearing people, no one is alike, or the same as another person.

Exactly...

but Rockdrummer and Cloggy didn't see that they compared child education with surgery...

 

[cdaigle430]

your comment here make no sense to me.

It won't make any sense unless you read the entire thread. I said it because from what I have been reading on this forum and this thread, it seems like deaf people take CIs personal , it's as though wearers of CIs want to deny their identity, their race so to speak. I don't know how else to explain it.....

 

[rockdrummer]

My assumption is that those parents are not really interested in deafness to register here and those who are do register here. I can see that those parents are really in denial about their children's deaf needs. It is like anything that has to do with deafness or deaf culture, they just clam up. Pls dont ask me why cuz I cant speak for them. I just can speak from what I encounter.

Good point Shel.. I had not considered that and I completely agree with you. I do wonder what percentage of parents of deaf kids those in denial make up. I hope that in todays day and age that they are the minority.

 

[rockdrummer]

No, we are not generalizing .

Er.. Sorry but many do generalize. If they didn't I would not respond that way. In fact look at the post I was responding to and you will see the generalizations.

 

[rockdrummer]

I think that is a fair comment about those parents. However sometimes the parents on here feel like they are pigeon holed in with those parents you are referring to in real life. I wish people would be a bit more positive about AD parents interest in deaf culture and willingness to learn sign.

Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! You get what I have been trying so desperatly to convey.

 

[rockdrummer]

You don't compare food over surgery, It's about respecting their body, respecting who they are, if the child was born deaf, leave it that way, why fixing a child is a must? for better future? for better education? for better hearing? a parent must know what's best for their child?, CI has to be the number one choice? I don't see parents bringing up their deaf child first to see the income on how they do in education, in their peers, communication. CI has to play the biggest role first before even trying to see how far your child will do as being deaf. I know some parents have done their search, but just remember not every deaf individuals are similar. Each person is different just like hearing people, no one is alike, or the same as another person.

you and liebling have missed my point. OK, lets try this your way. You say let the child choose. I have asked several times to those that say "let the child choose", how old do you think a child should be before they are capable of making such a choice. I still have not got an answer. If I asked my two year old child if they wanted a CI and they said yes, would you accept that? If not then please tell me why you would not accept that and also tell me what age a child should be before you would accept them deciding for themselves.

 

[Cloggy]

The only argument that is valid for making the child choose, has nothing to do with yes/no CI.

The reason is that the child will grow up deaf, have a deaf identity, will be able to communicate with other deaf people...
The reason is that the child - when allowed to choose for itself - will be part of Deaf community.

In itself, that is a noble thought, since giving a child identity is very important.

BUT

That decision also carries the resposibility of not allowing the child to get the best opportunities it could have had.
And THAT responsibility is something that d/Deaf society is rejecting...

 

[Angel]

you and liebling have missed my point. OK, lets try this your way. You say let the child choose. I have asked several times to those that say "let the child choose", how old do you think a child should be before they are capable of making such a choice. I still have not got an answer. .

As far as I've seen Liebling and Cheri had answered that question several times in another CI threads, they said at least the age of 7...They wanted the "child" involved in this decision along with the parents....

 

[Cheri]

As far as I've seen Liebling and Cheri had answered that question several times in another CI threads, they said at least the age of 7...They wanted the "child" involved in this decision along with the parents....

That's correct. That's what families are for, to make decisions together, it's not something major like a life threatening situation where parents have to make the best choice for their own child, but cochlear implant is a choice, a choice made by the person who wants it.

 

[rockdrummer]

As far as I've seen Liebling and Cheri had answered that question several times in another CI threads, they said at least the age of 7...They wanted the "child" involved in this decision along with the parents....

Thank you Angel, Unfortunatly I don't have the time to search all of the threads on this message board. The courtesy of a response or a link to the answers is appreciated.

Ok, now assuming the age of 7 is appropriate. I will comment on that. You have a 7 year old profoundly deaf child that has been through maybe 5 years of early elementry school. How much would a hearing kid have learned in that time? How much would a profoundly deaf child have learned in that time? Would their levels of education and knowledge be the same? And in either case, is that enough knowledge to make such a decision. Interesting. Personally, (from my experience with my own children) I don't think a 7 year old has the capacity make a choice that will be in their best interest. At 7 they don't even know what their best interest is. Put yourself in a position of a hearing parent of a profoundly deaf 7 year old child and pose the question. How do you think the conversation will go?

The child would ask questions like what is a CI, what are sounds, what is hearing, what does my best interest mean? The hearing parent will answer those questions to the best of their ability from the perspective of their own lives. My guess is that the end result will be the hearing parent convincing the 7 year old that a CI would be in their best interest. A deaf parent talking to a deaf child may have a totally different outcome. Or not. Take a guy like Fragmenter as a case in point. Lets assume for the sake of argument that the child is not swayed one way or the other becuse of their parents being hearing or deaf and the outcome could go either way.

Ok now the 7 year old child has decided. Regardless of their choice being yes or no to a CI, is this now acceptable to those that say "let the child decide"? If you said yes, please read further to consider another possiblilty to the "let the child decide" scenerao.

I often see the argument over the early stage benefits of hearing as it relates to the pace of a childs education and their ability to achieve in life. It seems to be a point of contention. Some say there are benefits and some say there are not. For the record I am not siding either way. For me the jury on that one is still out.

If there really is no difference in the learning pace and achivement levels of profoundly deaf kids over kids that can hear natuarlly or assisted, then I will jump on the "Let the child decide camp" in a second. I wonder if those that say "Let the child decide" would jump in the "parents choice" camp if they found it to be true that kids that have the capacity to hear do learn faster and achieve more.

Tough questions for me as a parent. Is my kid gonna resent me because I chose a CI for him or is he gonna resent me because I didn't. I will put myslef in my child's shoes just for a minute and try to react to a couple of possible outcomes.

Outcome 1. It's proven there is no overall benefit (educationally, or in general living) to having assisted hearing and my parents chose an implant for me.

I would be resentful if the CI didn't work and it caused me chronic pain, or it kept me from persuing a profession I am interested in because of its existance or if I found out my parents did it for selfish reasons. I would be resentful because my parents could have waited and let me decide for myself.

Outcome 2. It's proven there are overall benefits (educationally and in general living) to having assisted hearing and my parents decided to let me choose (lets say at age 7) and I decided not to get the CI. Or, my parents decided for me to not get the CI.

Once I was old enough to grasp the realities of the decision (I would say between 12 and 16 years old) I would be resentful to them for going with the decision of a 7 year old that doesn't have the education level or world knowledge to make such a decision. I would be resentful to them for the opportunities I had missed out on. I would be resentful for them waiting 7 years to ask me when it's proven that the earlier assisted hearing is implemented the better chances there are for achievement and again resentful for them allowing me (a 7 year old) to make the decision.

Put yourself in the childs shoes in both situations and think hard about how you would respond.

 

[rockdrummer]

Bumping this up. I was really hoping for a response from the "let the child decide" camp on this one" Perhaps I have made some thought provoking points.

 

[R2D2]

I am pro parent choice but I think that from the perspective of a child making his or her own decision I think that 7 is too young.

At age 7 they are still very much dependent on their parents' viewpoints. Their parents are like to God to them. If a parent says "A CI will cure your deafness" they will probably believe it. Or similarly "a CI will turn you into a robot" they will probably feel terrified of having a CI and have all these nightmares about being taken away by robots. They are not capable yet of questioning their parents' viewpoints or of looking at situations objectively.
A deaf child is even more dependent on their parents for information about the world than the average hearing child and sadly I've witness some parents abusing this in my own family.

A 7 year old cannot comprehend things like different possible outcomes and or risks of surgery. They won't really appreciate that they will need to sacrifice their free time to have extensive speech therapy (which would be the case for most children needing a CI if implantation was left until they were 7).

They cannot comprehend the long term implications of a CI - it's benefits and limitations, unless it was put in very simple terms.

I wouldn't think that an average child would get an indepth understanding of all the issues involved until they were at least 16 and probably later for many children.