Who Deserves the Credit for Killing Bin Laden?

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Of course. What did you think they were going to say: "Um, hey, we're closing down Alec Station, because we've failed miserably at finding OBL and we're just going to focus on other shit now. Thanks, and good night" ?

And this line: "restructure to increase effectiveness." --blah, I recognize the same sort of language when a corporation downsizes and lays off a bunch of workers. It's spin spin spin.
Uh, "restructure to increase effectiveness" was my paraphrasing. If you don't like it, how about "what they were doing wasn't working so they did something else". Better? It may be understandable to have your BS meter go up if it were 2006, but it's now five years later and we can actually see the results of their actions.

Fact is, you don't know any more than I do what really went on with this "restructuring." All we know for sure is that Bush never caught OBL but used him as a pretense to start two major wars.
Yes I do because I actually read the article I put up. Here are a few highlights: Operation Cannonball, more CIA case officers in Pakistan and Afghanistan, getting the courier's name, and the NSA tracking phone calls. Without the information gathered from that, Obama would not have been able to catch bin Laden.

So fine, Obama didn't restart Alec Station, but he certainly started a more focused and systematic search for OBL. I seem to recall in another article that there hadn't been any important intel on OBL in years. YEARS. Yeah, that "restructuring" sure was effective. :roll: The most important intelligence gathering occurred on Obama's watch, and that is a FACT.
He did not start a more focused and systematic search. You're reaching a conclusion that isn't supported by facts. Intel had been dry for years, including during his presidency. Then last July, we got a lead on the car his courier was driving and that led to today. We didn't get that lead because of some new push to get bin Laden. We'd been trying all along and finally got lucky. We only had information about the courier in the first place because of the "restructuring" that you're so desperate to downplay.

By the way, I don't say any of this to downplay what the President did in all this. What he did was great, but it's important to attribute actions that he actually did, not stuff he didn't do.
 
And what did McCain say about bin Laden? NOTHING!!!
McCain said nothing about Osama. Nothing!!! Not a darn thing!!!! Well, except this:
I'll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him.

I'll get him no matter what and I know how to do it. But I'm not going to telegraph my punches, which is what Senator Obama did. And I'm going to act responsibly, as I have acted responsibly throughout my military career and throughout my career in the United States Senate.
You may want to search your own links before making posts like this.
 
You win "Post of the week" honors for this line!
Thanks. I never thought I'd win Post of the Week and get a gazillion likes for being a scold. I guess that's what makes Alldeaf interesting. :)
 
Thanks. I never thought I'd win Post of the Week and get a gazillion likes for being a scold. I guess that's what makes Alldeaf interesting. :)
Sometimes we need to be reminded that we are all in this thing together, regardless of our politics. You said it better than I could. Here is a small token to remember this day:

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McCain said nothing about Osama. Nothing!!! Not a darn thing!!!! Well, except this:

You may want to search your own links before making posts like this.

McCain's words are a bit ironic given the events of Sunday. Had to giggle when I read them.:giggle:
 
He said nothing AFTER he made that comment. He talked about his hero, Roosevelt..and cited his military experience. He actually thought Obama's naive. It was after a few quotse than he staerted saying, "But the point is that I know how to handle these crises. And Senator Obama, by saying that he would attack Pakistan, look at the context of his words. I'll get Osama bin Laden, my friends. I'll get him. I know how to get him."

No, ummm... McCain does NOT know and the fact is that Pakistan was never attacked, we snuffed out a world terrorist. :)

What's even more amazing, Pakistani was apparently unaware of the killing which shows that Obama meant it when he said, "And if we have Osama bin Laden in our sights and the Pakistani government is unable or unwilling to take them out, then I think that we have to act and we will take them out."

Sweet!!!

And Obama correctly said, "That's part of what happened in Afghanistan, where we rushed into Iraq and Senator McCain and President Bush suggested that it wasn't that important to catch bin Laden right now and that we could muddle through, and that has cost us dearly."
 
Debate rages about role of torture
Washington (CNN) -- Osama bin Laden is dead, but the debate about torture lives on.

And the reason the controversy rages is obvious: The question of whether torture led, in one way or another, to bin Laden, according to intelligence and administration sources, is not clearly provable. Most of us don't know the entirety of the information given by the detainees who were waterboarded and those who were not. We don't know the exact sequence of events. And we don't know what information less high-value detainees provided (post-waterboarding) that could have given the CIA clues about how to get to bin Laden.

If this were a movie, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, or KSM -- the suspected mastermind of 9/11 -- would have been tortured and then spilled the beans about his ultimate boss. In real life, it is not at all clear. "There was no 'aha' moment here where we thought, ah, this piece of information gives us the location of Osama and it's the result of torturing a detainee," said a senior administration official. "This was one of 500 pieces of a puzzle. We had hundreds of thousands of bits of information."

And did some of that information come as a result of waterboarding? That may well be the case. Or not.

Here's what we do know, at least according to current administration officials: They argue that torture played almost no role in getting to bin Laden. In fact, two of the most high-value detainees -- KSM and bin Laden chief operations man Abu Faraj al-Libi -- actually lied about the important courier when asked about him.

They were dismissive about his importance, and didn't identify him beyond the nickname the CIA already knew. The key here: The CIA already knew that the courier had been a KSM protégé.

"It was their lies that alerted us," said one senior administration official with knowledge of the operation. All in all, Mohammed had been waterboarded 183 times -- and he still lied. "The help that KSM provided was inadvertent," this source said. "He didn't know what we knew."

Indeed. The CIA knew he had something to protect. The next obvious question: How did the CIA get the info on the courier's importance? How did they know Mohammed and al-Libi were lying? Apparently from a less valued al Qaeda operative, who let it be known that the courier was actually a KSM protégé and close to al-Libi, too. Was he waterboarded? We do not know for sure, although one senior administration source said he was not waterboarded. But what other methods were used? How exactly was he treated?

The politics of this is pretty obvious: The administration, which ended waterboarding -- and amid much controversy, released documents on torture from the Bush administration -- clearly wants to make the case that the trail that led to bin Laden was not the result of torture. Its left flank would be horrified if it was clearly torture that cracked the case.

Those who feel differently, of course, say that torture -- somehow, directly or indirectly -- had an impact here. Indeed, the former CIA head of counterterrorism, Jose Rodriguez, told Time this week that harsh techniques produced the information that led to bin Laden.

The current CIA director, Leon Panetta, is much less definitive on the subject. He told NBC News, "I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question." Not, of course, if you're Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney or George W. Bush.

As for the American people, they're ambivalent. A CNN poll in April 2009 found the public was divided right down the middle -- 50% approved of using "harsh interrogation procedures" and 46% disapproved.

In the end, said one senior administration official, "it's impossible to know whether waterboarding was the only way to get certain kinds of information." After all, the safehouse that hid bin Laden was built six years ago -- when enhanced interrogation was in full swing -- and word of it never surfaced.

The house is empty now, but the debate will rage on.
 
Obama Administration Urged to Drop CIA Probe in Light of Bin Laden Takedown - FoxNews.com
Adding to the backstory, former CIA counterterrorism chief Jose Rodriguez told Time magazine that two key sources, Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libbi, were held at secret sites overseas and subjected to enhanced interrogation. He said information from al-Libbi was particularly useful.

Though al-Libbi was not waterboarded, Rodriguez said the detainee gave key information about the courier just a week after enduring other tough methods. He told Time that the U.S. should revive the controversial interrogation tactics.

"Mr. Obama deserves credit for ordering the mission that killed bin Laden. But he should also recognize that he succeeded despite his urge to disavow Bush administration policies. Perhaps one day he will acknowledge his predecessor's role in making this week's dramatic success possible," Yoo wrote in a Wall Street Journal column Wednesday. "More importantly, he should end the criminal investigation of CIA agents and restart the interrogation program that helped lead us to bin Laden."

Attorney General Eric Holder launched that investigation in late 2009, appointing a special prosecutor to review cases of possible detainee abuse at the hands of CIA agents. Around the same time, the administration shifted responsibility for interrogations of top terror suspects away from the CIA. At the beginning of his term, Obama had ordered that interrogations stick to the guidelines in the Army Field Manual.

But there are deep concerns involved in any suggestion that the U.S. military revive the CIA interrogation program, which some lawmakers have described as torture.

"I don't know that torture actually produces results," Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, D-N.Y., told Fox News. "I don't think it's an approach we should take, and I don't think it's the American way."
 
these boys deserve the credit! :)

Seals’ All-Star Team
WASHINGTON — There were 79 people on the assault team that killed Osama bin Laden, but in the end, the success of the mission turned on some two dozen men who landed inside the Qaeda leader’s compound, made their way to his bedroom and shot him at close range — all while knowing that the president of the United States was keeping watch from Washington.

The men, hailed as heroes across the country, will march in no parades. They serve in what is unofficially called Seal Team 6, a unit so secretive that the White House and the Defense Department do not directly acknowledge its existence. Its members have hunted down war criminals in Bosnia, fought in some of the bloodiest battles in Afghanistan and shot three Somali pirates dead on a bobbing lifeboat during the rescue of an American hostage in 2009.

The raid early Monday in Pakistan has nonetheless put a spotlight on a unit that has been involved in some of the American military’s most dangerous missions of recent decades.

Leon E. Panetta, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, said the Seal commandos went into the mission with only a 60 percent to 80 percent certainty that Bin Laden was in the compound. Mr. Panetta said the commandos made the “split-second decision” to shoot him — the unarmed Qaeda founder had a rifle within reach, an American official said Wednesday — when they found him in his third-floor bedroom.

There was no debate among former Seal members that whoever had shot Bin Laden had done the right thing.

“It’s dark; there’s been a lot of bullets flying around, a lot of bodies dropping; your mission is to capture or kill Bin Laden; who knows what he’s got tucked in his shirt?” said Don Shipley, 49, a former Seal member who runs Extreme Seal Experience, a private training school in Chesapeake, Va. Mr. Shipley was reacting to earlier Obama administration accounts of an extended firefight at the compound, but on Wednesday, administration officials revised the narrative, saying that the only shots fired came at the beginning of the raid, from a courier.

“It happens in an absolute blink of an eye for these guys,” Mr. Shipley said. “And there’s that target in front of you. Second chances cost lives.”

Lalo Roberti, 27, a former Seal member who teaches at Mr. Shipley’s school and took part in a gruesome rescue mission in Afghanistan in 2005, concurred. “For us to take a shot, it has to be bad,” Mr. Roberti said. “Especially for the ‘6’ guys.”

Inside the Navy, there are regular unclassified Seal members, organized into Teams 1 to 5 and 7 to 10. Then there is Seal Team 6, the elite of the elite, or, as Mr. Roberti put it, “the all-star team.”

Former Seal members said this week that the unit — officially renamed the United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group, or Devgru — was chosen for the bloody Bin Laden raid, the most high-profile operation in the history of the Seals, because of the group’s skills in using lethal force intelligently in complex, ambiguous conditions.

All Seal members face years of brutal preparation, including a notorious six months of basic underwater demolition training in Coronado, Calif. During “hell week,” recruits get a total of four hours of sleep during five and a half days of nonstop running, swimming in the cold surf and rolling in mud. About 80 percent of the candidates do not make it; at least one has died.

For those who succeed, more training and then deployments follow. After several years on regular Seal teams, Team 6 candidates are taught to parachute from 30,000 feet with oxygen masks and gain control of a hijacked cruise liner at sea. Of those Seal members, about half make it.

Ryan Zinke, 49, a former member of Seal Team 6 who is now a Republican state legislator in Montana, said members of Team 6 had a certain personality: “I would say cocky, arrogant.”

Seals — the term stands for Sea-Air-Land teams — were created by President John F. Kennedy in 1962 as a way to expand unconventional warfare.

Seal Team 6 came later as a reaction to the botched mission to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980, when the Pentagon saw the need for what became today’s Special Operations Command, with a special Navy unit focused on counterterrorism.

Seal Team 6 has historically specialized in war on the seas, but in the decade since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, it has increasingly fought on land in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Its size is classified, but Team 6 is thought to have doubled to nearly 300 since then. Over all, there are now about 3,000 active-duty Seal members, split between odd-numbered teams in Coronado and even-numbered teams in Virginia Beach.

Team 6, which is based in an area separate from all the others, at the Dam Neck Annex of Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, has many members in their mid-30s, a decade or more older than the 20-year-olds who populate the military.

“I used to call it the old man’s club,” Mr. Zinke said.

Reflecting the growing importance of special operations and guerrilla-type warfare, Seal members have risen since the Sept. 11 attacks to higher levels of prominence within the military.

The officer who designed and oversaw the Bin Laden raid, Vice Adm. William H. McRaven, is a Seal member who is soon to take over leadership of the military’s Special Operations Command from Adm. Eric T. Olson, also a Seal member. On Wednesday, the Pentagon announced that Vice Adm. Robert S. Harward Jr., another Seal member, would become deputy commander of United States Central Command, making him the second-highest-ranking American officer for the Middle East.

Eric Greitens, a former Seal member who has written a book about his experiences, “The Heart and the Fist,” said that Seal members were misunderstood as the nation’s deadliest commandos.

Although the gruesome descriptions of the pictures of Bin Laden with a bullet in his head would appear to underscore that reputation — and help to explain why President Obama decided Wednesday not to release them — Mr. Greitens called Seal members “creative” commandos who knew “to bring back as much intelligence as they possibly could.”

The cache the Seal team recovered from the Bin Laden compound included more than 100 storage devices — DVDs, thumb drives and computer discs — as well as 5 computers and 10 computer hard drives.

Despite the mission’s success, former Seal members acknowledged the precariousness of the raid and the degree of luck involved. “If that thing had gone bad, the conversation you and I would be having would be completely different,” Mr. Shipley said. “There’s only two ways to go in these operations — zero or hero.”
 
I wish the press would use the proper terminology.

It's SEAL team, not Seal team. SEAL is an acronym, not a critter.
 
I wish the press would use the proper terminology.

It's SEAL team, not Seal team. SEAL is an acronym, not a critter.
Waitamin...you sound like you were a journalist at one time. :)

Agree with you on this.
 
Waitamin...you sound like you were a journalist at one time. :)

Agree with you on this.
Navy journalist for 24 years.

Queen of the style guide. :lol:
 
Hmmm...I guess what I find odd is that no one is even questioning whether or not this whole "We got Bin Laden" deal is so much bullshit. I mean...I've been reading a lot of the news stuff about it and all I'm seeing is a lot of hearsay. Where is the pics of the body? Where is the physical evidence of any of this? How convenient that the supposed body of this particular terrorist was dumped at sea therefore making it impossible to prove any of this hoopla. I just find it damned odd that we hear nothing about this guy for years...and suddenly there's this big commando raid and we kill this guy that quick and easy? Eh...too much about this stinks like rotten fish on a 90 degree day.
 
Another article saying that waterboarding didn't lead to bin's location:

"A group of former US military interrogators are pushing back against the notion that Bush administration “enhanced interrogation techniques” – which many consider to be torture – led to the intelligence that helped US officials locate Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Some US military intelligence officials also lament that bin Laden was not taken alive – and privately wonder whether concerns about the political “headaches” involved in trying detainees may have led the Obama administration to favor killing rather than capturing the architect of 9/11."

...

The opportunity to glean valuable intelligence from the leader of a powerful terrorist organization was lost, says retired Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who interrogated generals under the command of Saddam Hussein and evaluated US detention operations at Guantánamo.

It is a misconception that ideologues don’t talk, he says. “The opinion that, ‘Oh, he’s such a fanatic, he won’t tell us anything' – that’s uninformed blathering by people who don’t understand the business,” Herrington adds. “The experience with those who worked with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and some of the other most senior terrorists is that they are narcissists and that they do want to talk – and talk and talk.”

The key, Herrington says, is to “channel those long talking sessions where they begin to – inadvertently at first – reveal things that are useful. All the while he’s talking, he’s telling us things that he doesn’t think are important, but they are.”

That requires building relationships – a process that is hampered, not helped, by practices such as “slapping someone in the face and stripping them naked,” he adds.

Military interrogators: Waterboarding didn't yield tips that led to bin Laden - CSMonitor.com


I agree with Herrington, I mean seriously, waterboarding is just stupid and only makes them say less. We MUST build "relationship" with terrorists and make them talk about their plans.
 
He said nothing AFTER he made that comment.
He said nothing about bin Laden! Nothing at all!!! After he said something about bin Laden, of course.

Wouldn't it make you look less foolish to just say "Oops, I missed that. Good catch" and move on?
 
GWBush vindicated.....!

Seeking to score cheap political points, some on the left have bragged that Obama did the job Bush was unable to do. This is an unfair, unseemly, and inaccurate attack. In the narrowest sense, yes, the mission was undeniably carried out on Obama’s watch, but evidence continues to mount that it could not have occurred without crucial intelligence gleaned through policies enacted by the Bush administration after September 11, 2001. Specifically, Osama bin Laden was found because the United States military exploited actionable intelligence extracted by subjecting terrorists to enhanced interrogation techniques (EITs) in secret CIA prisons, by questioning enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay, and by capturing a top al Qaeda source in Iraq.

As long as some liberals remain intent on keeping political score, it must be pointed out that all three sources of these indispensible data points were direct or indirect results of Bush policies – EITs, Gitmo, and the Iraq war – that much of the American Left, including Barack Obama, fought tooth and nail.

So surreal...


And the hypocrisy.......

When the American media revealed that the CIA was operating secret prisons during the Bush administration, the Left professed shock and indignation. They spent years demonizing and persecuting American intelligence operatives for engaging in “torture,” insisting that harsh interrogation techniques were an affront to “our values,” and – besides – they didn’t even work. Multiple public opinion polls taken over the last decade have shown, despite the Left’s protestations, the American people aren’t scandalized. US voters overwhelmingly support the limited use of harsh questioning tactics to prevent terrorist attacks on US soil – even when the loaded term “torture” is included in the question.


And the irony.....


Barack Obama ran for president, in large measure, as the anti-Bush. He was a prominent opponent of the war in Iraq. He promised to shutter the Guantanamo Bay prison. He pledged to ban certain EITs. Today, as president, he is rightfully receiving praise from virtually all quarters for his decisive order to take out the most wanted man in the world. Obama, his supporters, and indeed all Americans have every reason to celebrate that accomplishment. But they must also recognize and appreciate that actions and policies implemented by President Bush, often in the face of searing partisan criticism, played an inextricable role in identifying the dots that were finally connected and acted upon last weekend.
The Vindication of George W. Bush « Hot Air

And if that's not enough, here's the biggest hypocrisy of them all:

Osama bin Laden was a) killed by a unit overseen by what New Yorker reporter Seymour Hersh denounced as Vice President Dick Cheney’s “executive assassination ring,” which was b) sent into action based on intel derived from the now-outlawed “enhanced interrogation techniques,” which were c) used on detainees captured during the George W. Bush administration, who were d) being held in now-outlawed “secret prisons” or in the intended-to-be-closed Gitmo.

Where are the massive protests about the wars? Three now with Libya. Where are the screams of protests, the Hitler posters, the Nazi chants, and such for not closing down Gitmo and having three wars? And yet they hold up Obama on a pedestal who's own policy on wars (without Congress' approval per Libya) and assassination plots are every bit as the same as Bush...yet......some people........are quiet about this. Such silence speaks volume!

Bush Led, Bin Laden Dead, but Where's the Credit? - Page 1 - Larry Elder - Townhall Conservative

Kudos to Obama on going ahead with the decision to kill Osama. But thumbs down for him on not properly recognizing or crediting Bush's role in all this which played a large role on getting Osama killed. You'd probably think it was a gutsy call although I'm thinking that Obama probably had no choice to send out the kill order. Otherwise, it'd be like Clinton redux number 3 when he was offered the opportunity to get Osama's head on a silver platter (though, true, pre 9-11) and he refused. Had Obama passed that chance you know his political career would've been over and no chance for a 2012 win at all. NIL. Plus, Obama didn't make an immediate decision, you see. Once he got the word that, "We've got him," it took him 16 hours to make a decision to go ahead with the order to get and kill Osama.

As for Darkdog....he got it squarely on. Give credit where's credit is due.

I leave it up to some of the kiddies here with their own devices in their own sinking morass of moral hypocrisy on this whole thing and let you chase your own tail for awhile. No need for me to tell who's who...you know who. :giggle:

So much for my stealth performance here. I'll sit back and smile at this whole thing. I'm outta here!

:wave:

*Whooooooosh!*
 
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